I agree with Lisa… while your list can be helpful, puppymillers have learned to look very reputable making it much harder to look at the website to determine. The bottom line is, no matter if they sell one breed or more, they can be a puppymill. And there are certainly some very legit responsible breeders with 2 or even 4 breeds! My entry into dog breeding/showing was a woman who had English bulldogs, her daughter had aghans and setters. If they don't have pedigrees and health testing info on the web page, I'd run. If they have it and you check OFA and find they falsified, or only maybe the current or some of their dogs have testing.. run. The rest they can fake or pretend but generations of health clearances generally aren't part of a puppymill.
Does this breeder sound reputable?
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Arlene, the poster will just say you can't read because obviously when we say that health of rescue is a question mark that is rescue bashing even though it is true. As Andrea very accurately summarized, responsible breeders do Fanconi testing before a breeding, they make sure their puppies Fanconi status is known prior to placement. BRAT does NOT do Fanconi marker testing because it will negatively impact the rescue's likelihood of being adopted so for at least that one health issue when you adopt a rescue that will be a question mark.
If we say temperament can be a question mark that is also bashing. Having spent many hours at my shelter working with temperament tested dogs, I can say that we still run into surprises. A temperament test cannot test for every situation. It tests for the ones that are most likely going to be triggers but you can still run into surprises when you are actually working with a dog or when an adopter brings the dog home. And Andrea made a good point, it isn't always temperament but behavior. We see lots of adolescent dogs that have been reinforced for lots of bad behaviors like jumping up, nipping, etc. Those are bad behaviors but often they are combined with energetic, playful temperaments that make those behaviors highly likely.
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Very True Lisa. But I am done with her. Nasty. Too bad.
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<<_I doubt many responsible breeders can begin to place a pup for much under $2,000. Certainly not under $1,000.>>
This was the start of it certainly. Just because you believe we, as responsible breeders on this forum, do or don't charge that amount, your inference was that we were irresponsible. _<<<
That wasn't the start, it wasn't. And the cost of a breeder pup wasn't the topic about bashing. Please quit trying to make it so. But you actually TWISTED my intent, which was that I didn't see how a breeder can begin to sell for less BECAUSE I know the expenses incurred. I wasn't saying make a profit, I was thinking prevent financial ruin. So the ASSUmption I meant it about profit... sorry, not from me.
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And again, your words. You are the one who generalized against all the breeders. If you didn't want a generalization you should have been more specific. What? And we don't place depending on the dog and family as well? <<<<
Since I addressed this several times, not going to again, but no it was NOT generalizing about all breeders, it was comparing the ability to socialize... which was put down about rescues... saying... oh wait. I explained it already so wasting breath.
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Again, are you so perfect this has never happened to you? Kids are kids and dogs are dogs and it can happen to anyone. If you trust a dog, IMO, comletely, you are an idiot. Period. A dog is still a wild animal and behaves accordingly. _
Wow, again twisting. My point was.. typing slow... no matter what you do, if the home is wrong it can be undone. That can happen to anyone. It wasn't breeder bashing and you know it.
_So what is it?? Rescuers, rescues, or rescue dogs. _
Rescue dogs, but since that was the discussion each and every post except when someone said I said people were bashing rescuERS.
_You're right, you don't have issues with responsible breeders, just all breeders! And I thought you didn't bash anything? _
OMG, insane, that comment really is.
Not even going through the rest because you said you were done, yet continue with personal attacks and in next post call me nasty. I have not personally attacked anyone, you have. Look in the mirror for rude, nasty etc. Check into anger management even. And no, dear, you can't order me off here. You can't order me to not respond to you ...heck you obviously couldn't even order yourself to stop cause you keep on. You attack me, I'll respond. Perhaps bullying and name calling and personal attacks works for you elsewhere, but you rather picked the wrong person. I can respect debating a topic even when disagreeing, but when someone makes the clearly harassing attacking posts you do, their comments deserve no respect. But perhaps you need the last word so I'll give it to you, done.
I do want to state one last time.. nothing I wrote was ever intended as responsible breeder bash, but defense of rescue. That it has been beaten to death has long since passed any level of productive discussion. For my part, done. But I hope most breeders realize the accusations that I am against breeders is nonsense. Responsible breeders are the light against the dark in all breeds, not just this one, and the only ones who should ever produce a puppy. -
Wow, again twisting. My point was.. typing slow… no matter what you do, if the home is wrong it can be undone. That can happen to anyone. It wasn't breeder bashing and you know it.
I totally disagree with this comment…. And I know many a Basenji that was in the wrong home and the damage was never able to be "undone"
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Pat, I apologize you misunderstood. I guess because I said it so many times and it was PERFECTLY clear in what I wrote before that she quoted:
And the next truth is that no matter what YOU do, you place a puppy in an idiot's home where a child hurts the dog, your bombproofing for kids goes down the drain.
I didn't explain fully this one. I meant no matter what you do, it you put a dog in the wrong home, whatever good YOU DID can be undone.
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BRAT does NOT do Fanconi marker testing because it will negatively impact the rescue's likelihood of being adopted so for at least that one health issue when you adopt a rescue that will be a question mark.
For the record, BRAT does not do Fanconi marker testing because we can not afford it. If we tested each basenji that came into rescue each year, it would cost over $30,000 per year. Our adoption fees do not begin to cover our direct vetting expenses as it is. This is the primary reason BRAT does not test. In addition, the test is not 100% accurate.
debbi j.
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That is not what has been said in the past. Cost is one factor but the negative impact on the adoptability has always been listed as a major factor.
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That is not what has been said in the past. Cost is one factor but the negative impact on the adoptability has always been listed as a major factor.
Who is your source that the negative impact on the adoptibility is the major factor? I am one of the five members of the Board and one of the three members of the Executive Committee. The primary reason is the cost factor.
debbi j.
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@debbi:
For the record, BRAT does not do Fanconi marker testing because we can not afford it. If we tested each basenji that came into rescue each year, it would cost over $30,000 per year. Our adoption fees do not begin to cover our direct vetting expenses as it is. This is the primary reason BRAT does not test. In addition, the test is not 100% accurate.
debbi j.
The test is very true to form… there have been no Clears that have started to spill as of yet... that I know of and there are over 3500 Basenjis in the data base. I would hope that no one uses the excuse as a reason not to test.
And I have heard the same as Lisa as the main reason that BRAT doesn't test... also there have been suggestions made that when someone wants/needs to give up their Basenji that they are requested to make the 65.00 donation so the dog can be tested... not all are strays or from shelters. While maybe many would not, can't hurt to ask... and you might be surprised.
This is NOT a BRAT bash... just that I really think that these dogs should be tested before placement and the potential owners aware of what might come.
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And I have heard the same as Lisa as the main reason that BRAT doesn't test…
This is NOT a BRAT bash... just that I really think that these dogs should be tested before placement and the potential owners aware of what might come.
I don't see this as BRAT bashing. I am involved in the making of BRAT policy, and I know that is not the main reason. You may have heard this from individual BRAT members, but the opinion of individual members does not stand for the organization.
debbi j.
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@debbi:
I don't see this as BRAT bashing. I am involved in the making of BRAT policy, and I know that is not the main reason. You may have heard this from individual BRAT members, but the opinion of individual members does not stand for the organization.
debbi j.
I still think that on Basenjis being given up from the owners direct if you asked for a donation of 65.00 for the test, then it is not a cash outlay from BRAT. As they say, if you don't ask….
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I still think that on Basenjis being given up from the owners direct if you asked for a donation of 65.00 for the test, then it is not a cash outlay from BRAT. As they say, if you don't ask….
Unfortunately, most owners giving up a basenji will not even bring their dog up to date on shots, much less donate $65.00 for the test. We generally ask for a donation to help defray costs, but it seldom happens. So far this year, we have received seven donations when an owner surrendered their basenji to BRAT. In a more perfect world, things might be different.
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even though im new on this forum and pretty much uninformed, (and im sure ill be told so by at least one person) i do want to say several things
something was posted in this thread about most brat dogs being listed as not good with children under 12 as though this was an indicator of the instability of rescue dogs vs reputable breeders dogs.
sebastian my foster will be listed as needing to go to a home with children over 12. i requested that, not because i think hes a danger but because i feel he needs a home where his space and person will be respected by everyone in the household, which is as it should be for any dog, breeder pup OR rescue. sebastian is good with anyone who respects his space and person whether they are 2 years old or 80 years old human or canine, but if they dont then he will let them know, which could result in his being without a home once more, so why take the chance?
dogs are not responsible for teaching children or adults appropriate behavior.
personally i think that you are setting ANY dog up to fail if you place them in a home with children who are either too young to understand the concept of respecting the family dogs space and person or in a home with children whose parents fail to teach the children that the family dog deserves as much respect as any other member of the household.there was an email from brat recently about a dog who needed a home asap because the 9 year old in the home was tormenting the dog.
i think brat is wise in posting most dogs as needing homes with kids over 12 years of age, there may be very good reasons why some of the dogs are posted that way.
but in general it just makes sense to take one of the major reasons dogs are taken to shelters or rescues out of the equation when posting a dog for adoption who has already been abandoned once.second
i have just started fostering with brat and i have to say that im amazed at the amount of money they spend on these dogs
sebastian has in just the past few weeks had over 400.00 spent on tests, medications, xrays etc.telling an owner that they Have to pay 65.00 for testing of their dog would im sure cause many of the relinquishing owners to simply take their dog to the pound, list it on craigslist as a "free dog" or just abandon it.
would testing for fanconi be good? of course and maybe one of these days brat will financially see their way clear to do so, but until then lets just applaud them for the work they do and have faith that if there is any way possible to test every dog they will figure out a way to do so.
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Westcoast..well said. BRAT does vet the dogs they have in their care.
We are very lucky to have BRAT help b's in need. -
What if the adopting party offered to pay for the test before they committed to taking the dog?
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Amdrea. Are you talking about the adopters for BRAT saying they would get the test, before they get the dog? I am not clear what your asking
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i think brat is wise in posting most dogs as needing homes with kids over 12 years of age, there may be very good reasons why some of the dogs are posted that way.
No one was disagreeing with the fact that some dogs belong in homes without young children. But that doesn't mean that every family with children under the age of 12 should just not have a dog. This is where a responsible breeder may be able to better provide a suitable match since so many rescues are considered not good with young children. This isn't saying that because a dog isn't good with young children that it is a lesser dog but it does mean that a responsible breeder may be a better option for those families.
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Amdrea. Are you talking about the adopters for BRAT saying they would get the test, before they get the dog? I am not clear what your asking
Yes, I was wondering if the person who is interested in adopting the dog offers to pay to get the dog screened for the Fanconi marker, prior to adopting it…would that be allowed?
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no
every family with children under 12 should not be disqualified from having a dog, i just dont think basenjis are the best breed for a family with small children who believe their dog should tolerate whatever the little angels decide to dish out.let those families go to a breeder who specializes in a line of brain dead labs you know the kind of dog that makes a good designer area rug for the home, big, furry, and loveable who will happily accept whatever little junior dishes out.
thank god most basenjis wont put up with that kind of behavior, must be why i like them so muchi personally cant see any basenji tolerating a child who mauls them, whether it is a 3 month old puppy from the best breeder on the planet or a dog from a rescue organization
of course there are exceptions to every rule, but seriously, how many breeders can predict that a 3 month old basenji pup will tolerate whatever abuse might be handed out by the children in the family its being sent to ?
many dogs that are in rescue have a history, a real live history, not just 3 months with a breeder who may have mom dad and grandparents, who knows the background of the puppy but CANNOT know with absolute certainty how that puppy will react to the stressors in its environment in the years to come
alot of dogs in rescue do have a known history, for example " this dog is being given up because little johnny tormented the dog causing the dog to growl and snap at little johnny and rather then punish little johnny we are giving up the dog, so brat lists that dog as needing to go to home without small children.
does that mean that a rescue dog being listed as going to a home with children over the age of 12 has something wrong with it that a puppy from a breeder wouldnt have?
no!
it means the dog has a HISTORY that a 3 month old puppy CANT have
if you put ten 3 month old puppies from reputable breeders into a situation where little johnny abuses the pups for a couple of years how many of those pups would end up being placed by brat in homes without small children ? (assuming of course that the families didnt contact the breeder to return the vicious dog)so there are of course exceptions to every rule and im sure someone here has a basenji who loves being mauled by little kids.
to sum it up i dont think it is entirely a question of breeder pup vs rescue dog fitting into a family with little kids, i think its more the idea of will this family teach its children to show their BASENJI pup the respect it expects and deserves? and in the case of many rescue dogs the answer to that important question was no, and now that basenji needs to go to a home without small children.
because brat asks for adopters with children over 12 to adopt these dogs many of them will get a second chance to live in a family that does show them that respect, better late then never i suppose
so i hope i havent offended anyone with my opinions, getting a pup from a good breeder is a great thing and if it is the route you choose to take thats wonderful, but to lump all rescues into the category of being unreliable dogs for families simply because they are rescues and not a pup from a breeder just doesnt seem right.
i asked that sebastian be listed as going to homes with kids over 12 because i feel he would be happier in an environment where he didnt have to tolerate little rug rats bothering him not because there is anything wrong with him.
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Neither a breeder or rescue should place with a family who are idiots about controlling and training their children. No dog should put up with abuse.
Many rescues have "adults only or no children under 12" not because they are known to be an issue but because the rescue doesn't KNOW. It is one thing I think many rescues fail at… making sure foster homes can expose to children or have evaluated with them.
But it is one thing all should do... evaluate the FAMILY, especially the children, with dogs. If a parent can't control their child, it is not a good placement imho. Ever.
I do think the fanconi option is a good one...i.e. offer adopters the opportunity to pay for the test.
