@senjisilly just now saw your reply. Thanks for the pedigree website. I knew about it and it’s a great resource.
Our baby might be a daddy soon!
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thankyou. its nice to know that someone is not badgering us about something we didn't intentionally do. if we were doing it for money than we would be selling them, but instead they are going to our family and friends.
thanks for your kind words. i know i shouldn't have gotten upset but everyone kept attacking. as far as him being neutered. we were gonna at first but my family as well as us wanted a little basenji family. we sort of fell in love with this breed. all of them would be staying with us and both of our families are dog lovers. thats what we meant by breeding him. we just wanted to have him breed one liter just once for us.thankyou
michelleWe all have to grow up at some point; as a couple of young kids, we have faced a few problems as well. Most assume young=irresponsible. While we may make more mistakes & have a little more learning to do, even the dumbest kids can make good dog owners with the right intentions & eagerness to learn. We turned to this forum to learn so we can become amazing dog owners, and for the most part it is a great resource. A few badly placed words in a medium in which tone & meaning do not always get conveyed properly, words sometimes might seem a bit more harsh than intended (it has taken me months of surfing this forum to figure this out!)
I think what has gotten you so much negativity are the phrases you are using… for instance phrases like "we just want to see one litter" and "it takes away his manhood" are key bullets in the "pro spay/neuter pamphlets"... They are instant "we're irresponsible!!" flags (not saying you are; just trying to explain why people were so quick to be upset).
Honestly, every single person who has responded thus far has a lot of knowledge to share & a world of good intentions, but often times they come across the wrong way.
Do not think you are not welcome & people won't oooh and ahh when you post puppy pictures... they are just very passionate about dogs! -
he stays in the house…what's he gonna do? break through the walls to get to the new in season bitch? ha yeah aren't you intelligent.
You may say that in jest, but I do know people whose basenjis have done just that. Unfortunately, the computer that I had pictures of the damage to the walls crashed and the data was unrecoverable but it has happened.
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thankyou for your input. i appreciate the way you stated this a lot better than some have. we know all of this and our uncle is a breeder and my boyfriend really wants to be one as well. we were already gonna do the chip and we've tested olimar for everything and it was all negative. as for meli she is clear and we've already set up a visit for the vet tomorrow…
If I am doing the math correctly, you got Olimar in July at 3 months old, so that makes him only 5-6 months old right now? If this is correct, there is no way that you could have had him tested for all 4 of the inherited disorders that I listed, http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/brdreqs.html?breed=BJ
When the tests have been done their results are recorded in the OFA database which is searchable so all results can be verified. Here is a link to the OFA record of a dog with all 4 of these tests, http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1328429#animal You can see that they are given a CHIC designation, as having performed and made open the results of these 4 tests.
Again, I urge that you please learn about the inherited disorders in basenjis, http://www.basenji.org/PUBLIC/HealthInfo.htm. Learn about the importance of vertical pedigrees and having well documented health histories in order to prevent these genetic disorders, http://www.offa.org/hovanart.pdf
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If I am doing the math correctly, you got Olimar in July at 3 months old, so that makes him only 5-6 months old right now? If this is correct, there is no way that you could have had him tested for all 4 of the inherited disorders that I listed, http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/brdreqs.html?breed=BJ
When the tests have been done their results are recorded in the OFA database which is searchable so all results can be verified. Here is a link to the OFA record of a dog with all 4 of these tests, http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1328429#animal You can see that they are given a CHIC designation, as having performed and made open the results of these 4 tests.
Again, I urge that you please learn about the inherited disorders in basenjis, http://www.basenji.org/PUBLIC/HealthInfo.htm. Learn about the importance of vertical pedigrees and having well documented health histories in order to prevent these genetic disorders, http://www.offa.org/hovanart.pdf
and again i have read up about basenjis before we got olimar. we've already got our tests back for his fanconis so idk if my vet doesn't know anything or not so you be the judge. i don't need to be lectured things that i've read over and over. all this post was about was how we're gonna have puppies…
not killing them, not abusing them, not doing anything but be excited, caring, and wanting people to connect with that loves animals as well.this is the last time i'm gonna post something positive on this forums. all i was looking for was some fun and perhaps breeding stories with others. i guess that bashing someone is a lot better than being happy and encouraging. we love basenjis right? so why can't we be happy that theres more. with out breeding we wouldn't have any. and don't attack me about pound dogs, cause we're not letting it happen.
and so what if they're mixes? whats wrong with a mixed breed? people mix all the time, why can't different dog breeds do it? just be accepting to our decision and be happy what we're doing for the basenji community. even though they're half, doesn't mean they're not a b. same thing with if a african american and a caucasian have a baby, he still is black, he still is white. it's all the same.
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oh by the way the questions that whats his face posted. i've thought about it. and i'm able to answer them with ease. so thanks for the "positivity." it just seems like you keep bashing cause this is some huge mistake. did we forget that theres something called nature. and we live in it everyday. i love dogs and i think when someone is saying "hey my dog is pregnant" we don't go off saying "why didn't you get it spayed?", "be responsible, its the right thing so it doesn't happen again." if i'm telling you we have good families and friends for the dogs then theres no fret. don't tell me that we're doing a wrong thing or go to my local pound and see whats going on, cause i know whats going on.
i know breeding is gonna cost a lot, and i'm fine with that. i've researched that basenjis can be prone to a lot of illnesses. i read everything so please stop wasting your time typing on reapeat cause i got it the first time i read it in before i got oli. without breeding, you wouldn't have your precious b's today. if your not gonna be supportive and just being "know it all's" then i'd rather you not say anything, cause i heard it all.
thanks.
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Well...that's our job. As caretakers and protectors of our breed. We will not ever be supportive of someone who has the attitude you do. So, you will never meet anyone who really loves dogs who says 'oh, you decided not to spay and neuter your pets, and then didn't pay attention when the bitch was in heat, and now want to have a litter to give out to your friends and relatives...that is GREAT' It won't happen. People who love, and care about dogs don't want to see more unplanned breeding.
If you came here looking for support, I guess this isn't the place for that. Maybe you could find an irresponsible backyard breeder forum somewhere. -
Lanemichelle - we know nothing about you and so we cannot assess what you do or don't know about dogs, dog breeding, or dog diseases and yes that means we shouldn't judge your actions. But, for someone new to come in to this forum and say "our dogs accidentally had a litter and isn't that great", it rubs A LOT of people the wrong way because of the numerous accidental dogs that have gone to shelters in the end and had to be "put down". If you have done your homework on the two breeds as you now say then fine, we'll help you with whatever questions you have. But just as you expect us to understand your background without giving us that information, understand us and our concern for the basenji breed and all the rescues that have to be taken care of. Do a search on this forum for Iowa and read about a recent situation about breeding that went wrong and you'll understand why we get all uptight. As I say, be as understanding of us as you want us to be of you.
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Lanemichelle- Well good luck over the next bit as you get these pups out. Just a quick question when it comes to the dam. Is she a Jack or a Parson Russel. How old is she? Has she been tested for PRD and had hips checked. I know you said you have studied Basenjis, I just wanted to make sure you have also checked into Russells health problems as they also have a number of geneticaly inheritable issues, some that we have no idea if inheritance occures based on Autosomal Recessive Inheritance or not. This would mean that for many of the disorders in these breeds you may be safe, but there is no guarentee that some disorders would not be passed on.
Again good luck with this, having pups is an extreamly time/resorce consuming process. If you need any further info on Jack/Parsons let me know and I would be happy to point you in the direction of some good info.
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My point was that there is no way that at 6 months old Olimar could have "all" of his tests. One of the tests is not valid until 12 months old and another not valid until 2 years old. If you provide Olimar's registered name, I would be happy to see if his results are in OFA because if they are not then there is a good chance that your vet was unaware of the DNA Marker Test for Fanconi Syndrome. This would not be unusual many vets are unaware unless their clients have printed out the information from http://www.basenjihealth.org
I have frequently posted the names and links to my dogs OFA pages, anyone is welcome to verify that I do the testing on my dogs that I tell others to do. The only dog in my house without her CHIC designation is the one that is too young to obtain it. I would happily post them again if you want to verify that I really do the testing. I feel very strongly about breeding for good health and temperament. Most puppies born will be pets and companions for people who have no interest in showing their dogs, every breeder owes it to those owners to breed healthy, well adjusted, sound tempered dogs for those families. These things do not happen by accident and require a lot of work.
I volunteer at my local shelter, and have a different view of what happens there then the people I see who come in to just "visit" the dogs. Those people may very well make the assumption that when a dog leaves the adoption floor that it was adopted. People prefer to think of "happy endings", that is not always the case. Dogs leave the adoption floor for several reasons in our shelter. They leave for spay/neuter, they leave because they get sick, and a few leave because they have the equivalent of a mental breakdown, these ones end up euthanized. Another thing that many don't realize is that at most shelter now, dogs must pass a temperament test to make it to the adoption floor. There are several breeds, such as terriers, whose inborn traits predispose them to score low on most of these tests making it difficult for them to "pass" these tests. If you are not actively volunteering and involved at your shelter, then I don't think you can fairly say that you know what is happening there.
Raising a litter is a lot of work and a huge time commitment. Here are some websites with information of things you can do to help make sure they develop into well adjusted adults:
http://tehillahgermanshepherds.com/earlystimulation.html
http://www.echowyn.com/Ruleof7.htmlAlso, know who your local emergency vet is and have the number handy. I have shared on this forum the terrifying experience of a stuck puppy at 3am and having to have an emergency C-section and losing a puppy. Hopefully all goes without a hitch but it is best to be prepared in case things do not.
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And here is the link for Parson Russell Terrier's CHIC requirements, which are CERF exam (eye test), Patellar Luxation, and Congenital Deafness
Remember without knowing the "family" history, you have no idea what kind of problems you are going to get… and Basenjis are quite known for Patellar Luxation, so between the two breeds, this is a problem, along with possible Eye problems.
http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/brdreqs.html?breed=JT
There is so much that goes into breeding, hard enough keeping tract of health concerns in one breed, let alone mix breeds.
And to add to lvoss's note about knowing your ER Vet Clinic is vidal… my friend that has Silky's had the same thing happen... while she didn't require a C-section, it was still well over 2000.00 and a lost puppy....
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And here is the link for Parson Russell Terrier's CHIC requirements, which are CERF exam (eye test), Patellar Luxation, and Congenital Deafness
Remember without knowing the "family" history, you have no idea what kind of problems you are going to get… and Basenjis are quite known for Patellar Luxation, so between the two breeds, this is a problem, along with possible Eye problems.
http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/brdreqs.html?breed=JT
There is so much that goes into breeding, hard enough keeping tract of health concerns in one breed, let alone mix breeds.
And to add to lvoss's note about knowing your ER Vet Clinic is vidal… my friend that has Silky's had the same thing happen... while she didn't require a C-section, it was still well over 2000.00 and a lost puppy....
Thank you for posting this Pat. It is important to note that Basenjis aren't the only ones with health risks when it comes to breeding, and mixing two dogs doesn't mean you nesicarrily mitigate the health concerns for each breed.
P.S. Do you have any pups down in Dallas this week?
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Thank you for posting this Pat. It is important to note that Basenjis aren't the only ones with health risks when it comes to breeding, and mixing two dogs doesn't mean you nesicarrily mitigate the health concerns for each breed.
P.S. Do you have any pups down in Dallas this week?
Exactly…. in fact breeding mixes can make many, many problems worse.... it is one of the things that people forget when making statments that mixes are "healthier" then purebreds... which is totally not true... the difference is, purebreds know the health concerns, follow them, test for them, tell people... with a mix no one keeps track of the health problems... however just visit your local Vet and/or shelter and ask them about health problems in mixes, let alone poorly bred purebreds....
And nope, no pups in Dallas...couldn't get off work to go...
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"now, now….lets not get all pissy here sharron."
:mad: Uncalled for IMO. Bad form."i don't see why it'll be neccessarry to cut his testes. and cutting off his manlyhood in my opinion is not the responsible thing to do" (sic)
Many of us here use anthropomorphic phrases to describe our dogs, but this raises the hackles on my back!! Anthropomorphically speaking, the neutering (vasectomy) of any male, or removal of a testical(s), does NOT make that male unmanly, nor asexual. Dog or human.As I read through this thread I never thought anyone was posting anything but sound advice. Read into it what you may, but I sincerely believe everyone, without exception, was trying to be helpful, not attacking or judging the OP, their family, or their dogs.
Kudos to you all. I can only hope 'lanemichelle…' continues to read--and learn-- as I have done since becoming a member. Thank you fellow members and administrators
Dawn -
and cutting off his manlyhood in my opinion is not the responsible thing to do,
REALLY????
Have you considered that by not fixing your boy you are subjecting him to a much higher likleyhood of cancer as he ages. IMO that IS NOT a responsible thing to do.
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By the way, a neutered dog can still achieve a tie with a bitch, so not really much to the argument of "cutting off his manlyhood"….. but known as "safe sex"..... plus a healthier dog for its entire life, same with spaying a bitch, as they are very prone to breast cancer and also pyrometria is life threating in bitches. If you talk to responsible breeders, many dogs are collected and neutered for both health reason and behavior... add to that "no" opps puppies....
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I hope this couple are still reading these posts and will "get" what we are all trying to inform.
We post here because we care about dogs and the dogs they produce.
If you can rehome all the puppies, and the puppies their puppies, then you will be able to do better than some long time basenji breeders who have done all the testing and showing of their dogs and pups. Many can't sell all their pups and sometimes have them returned. Quality breeders take the dogs back they breed no matter what the age.
We have a large amount of b's and b mixes in the US.
Hopefully, you will learn from our peoples lack of responsiblity and not be overrun with unwanted dogs, in your small area.
I just don't know how you can do it without fixing dogs who are not showing.
FYI, I lived in Hawaii.
You do have unwanted pets. I know you do. -
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Well...that's our job. As caretakers and protectors of our breed. We will not ever be supportive of someone who has the attitude you do. So, you will never meet anyone who really loves dogs who says 'oh, you decided not to spay and neuter your pets, and then didn't pay attention when the bitch was in heat, and now want to have a litter to give out to your friends and relatives...that is GREAT' It won't happen. People who love, and care about dogs don't want to see more unplanned breeding.
If you came here looking for support, I guess this isn't the place for that. Maybe you could find an irresponsible backyard breeder forum somewhere.what attitude do i have? everyone is attacking us.
and if we're so irresponisble, why are we caring for them, researching, taking them to the vet, and everything. explain that. another thing i wanna confirm is that our vet told us that we'd have to wait till olimar was six months to get him neutered. he's not of age yet, so how are we irresponsible for not getting him neutered yet? but since we found out how much we love basenji's we wanted to get a female and have a liter. due to the fact that our family members want them and we want some more. after that we were planning to get him neutured. the comment about not neutering him was out of anger and i'm sure that if you were also attacked in the way we were you'd say things like that too.
but i bet now you guys are gonna get on my case about how we shouldn't even make a liter. so i'm ready, start the bashing.
ps. the female is a jack russell terrier. i'll take a look at their illnesses right after this, thank you.
by the way we know we aren't as "knowledgable" as all you guys are. so isn't this what these forums are for? isn't is so that newbies like us can get some positive insight into what we are so interested in from people who do know? thats exactly why we are on this forum everyday trying to do more and more research about the puppy we love. you all were newbies at one point too. so imagine hearing that your an irresponsible owner when you're trying to ask people to help you in a postive way. i'm sure that would get you upset as well. we know we're gonna make mistakes as first time owners, but it'd be nice to hear the Pro's telling us what we're doing wrong in a postive and helpful way.
oh and another thing... send me the forum link for that irresponsible backyard breeders, sounds like just the place for me. maybe i can find a forum for you that would be best for you, but i'll keep those words to myself. i'll be "responsible" enough to not display it on this forum.
thankyou so much for your help -
I can imagine you are feeling attacked.
You posted something you thought was great, and we are showing distress at this. Or I am at any rate.
If you can try to understand that we are here for the dogs.
We are also here to help folks learn to care for the b's they have, train the b's they own, and help with behaviors of dogs who have been passed on and on and on. We inform about health issues and testing so when a decision is made to create a litter, it can be done with all the best info possible.
I do rescue, so I just can't celebrate another mixed litter.
I am in total support of breeders who breed after testing their dogs for all the issues they have and then breeding to improve the breed.
We all start somewhere with learning about b's and their health issues.
Maybe this is your place to learn.
There is a lot of good info on this forum. -
The people who have responded to your post are not attacking you, they just don't share you "joy" in this event. That is a huge difference. I posed several questions in my first post which you say you can answer easily but you did not answer them publicly.
If you would like people on this forum to believe that you are really doing your best to be responsible rather than just responding defensively and frequently quite rudely, you would actually address the questions and concerns raised in each post.
So here are some questions you can choose to answer them or not.
1. What steps are you going to take to make sure that these puppies do not become a burden on the already overtaxed shelter system?
2. Will you require spay/neuter?
3. Are you prepared to answer the many questions that new dog owners have when their puppies start exhibiting "bad behavior", such as chewing, separation anxiety, housetraining issues, resource guarding, etc? If you are not familiar with these issues do you know local trainers that use positive reinforcement that you can refer owners to?
4. Have you researched early puppy development and planned for what you will do to make sure your puppies are adequately socialized prior to leaving for their new homes?
5. Do you know where your local emergency vet is and have their number handy?
6. Do you have $2000 in cash or credit available in case of a medical emergency? If not, have you thought about what you will do if there is a medical emergency regarding the dam or pups?
7. Do you have funds available to buy whelping supplies? Do you know what is needed in a whelping kit?These are just the questions that come to mind for this current litter.
Again before considering breeding in the future. You need to be able to answer and be willing to answer these questions when people ask.
1. What does Olimar have to offer the breed?
2. What health testing for hereditary diseases have done? What is Olimar's registered name so this can be verified in the publicly accessible databases?
3. What are your goals as a breeder?
4. How will you prevent contributing to the over burdened shelter system?
5. How will you contribute to the basenji community as a whole?
6. How will you contribute to basenji rescue? and your local animal shelters? -
what attitude do i have? everyone is attacking us.
and if we're so irresponisble, why are we caring for them, researching, taking them to the vet, and everything. explain that. another thing i wanna confirm is that our vet told us that we'd have to wait till olimar was six months to get him neutered. he's not of age yet, so how are we irresponsible for not getting him neutered yet? but since we found out how much we love basenji's we wanted to get a female and have a liter. due to the fact that our family members want them and we want some more. after that we were planning to get him neutured. the comment about not neutering him was out of anger and i'm sure that if you were also attacked in the way we were you'd say things like that too.
but i bet now you guys are gonna get on my case about how we shouldn't even make a liter. so i'm ready, start the bashing.
by the way we know we aren't as "knowledgable" as all you guys are. so isn't this what these forums are for? isn't is so that newbies like us can get some positive insight into what we are so interested in from people who do know? thats exactly why we are on this forum everyday trying to do more and more research about the puppy we love. you all were newbies at one point too. so imagine hearing that your an irresponsible owner when you're trying to ask people to help you in a postive way. i'm sure that would get you upset as well. we know we're gonna make mistakes as first time owners, but it'd be nice to hear the Pro's telling us what we're doing wrong in a postive and helpful way.
If you truly care about the breed and want to be a breeder, then you should learn as much information as you can about the breed and breeding (which it sounds like you've already started) and try to find a responsible breeder that will teach you, and then figure out how get into breeding with a basenji that you know its family lineage and about the personalities, health, and temperments and so forth of its relatives. and make sure you have the time and money to dedicate to breeding, if you want to be a responsible breeder.. and i'm sure i'm only touching on what it takes to be a breeder, but if you're going to do it, do it right, not with a puppy from a pet store (and I'm not trying to be rude and "bash" you or your dog, but a pet store puppy is not a dog to breed with). IMO i wouldn't expect to get much support here saying you aren't going to nueter your boy because you want to breed him, not many people here are going to support an irresponsible breeder..
