This is fascinating stuff - thank you for pointing the way to it @sanjibasenji
The "perfect" breed
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I noticed that the AKC does not recognize papoodle, schnoodle, puggle, and such. Is it because they don't breed true?
It is because they are mutts, pure and simple, they are mixed breeds…
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Yes, mutts with good pr agents and a large price tag to appeal to the folks with more $$ than sense.
laugh sorry to sugar coat my feelings on this..wink. -
A few random comments on this subject…...
To me, a mutt is a dog comprised of multiple breeds and of unknown ancestry. I prefer the term "crossbred" or "crossbreed" in reference to a dog with purebred parents of two different breeds. I do not use the term "hybrid". I was always taught that a hybrid is a cross between two animals of the genus but different species. For instance, a cross between a male donkey (Equus asinus) and a female horse (Equuus caballus) creates the hybrid mule. A cross between a male lion (Felidae leo) and a female tiger (Felidae tigris) creates the hybrid liger. But a cross between a Pug (Canis lupus familiaris) and a Beagle (Canis lupus familiaris) just creates more Canis lupus familiaris aka domestic dogs.
So what is the appeal of "designer dogs"? Quite frankly I believe it has alot to do with the media. TV shows of all kinds have featured segments on "deisgner dogs", almost always portraying them as being healthier than purebreds and possessing the best traits of each purebred parent. Even with zero evidence to support these claims, the public bought it hook, line, and sinker and the demand for crossbreds escalated at a rapid pace. Almost overnight, it seemed like everyone had to have a Labradoodle or a Puggle. "Breeders" everywhere with dollar signs in their eyes started cranking out puppies by the hundreds (thousands?) and there were no shortage of buyers.
My personal feelings are that crossbreeds and mutts can make delightful family companions and there are people who cherish these dogs. When people make derogatory comments to the owners of these dogs, to them it is like a slap in the face. No, I don't "approve" of "breeders" who toss a couple of dogs together, be they the same breed or not, with zero concerns about health and temperament. I'm just saying that if a person already has a dog from a less than desirable background, we should be aware of their feelings.
Ok that said, and I know this comment may get me "flamed", there are a handful of breeders who cross breeds who I would consider to be responsible breeders. They do generations of health testing, provide very good warranties/contracts, carefully screen homes, and provide long-term support for their buyers. If a person has their heart set on a Cock-a-poo or a Labradoodle puppy, there are places to get one that is properly produced.
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X2 Robyn… I agree
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Robyn-
I agree, and I think your quote on your signature really expresses it well….some people are going to want the temperment of a labrador with the low allergy causing fur of a poodle, still others are going to think that the little wrinkled face of a puggle is just adorable and want one of those. They see those dogs in a different "shade of grey" than others.
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Robyn, I would agree totally with you if not thousands of dogs were not being put to sleep every year..
MIXES.
So, save a life, go to the shelter pay $60 or $100 and get a dog you can name a puggle…
Breeding mixes when there are tons seeking homes just is wrong imo.
We will have to agree to disagree on this. -
Robyn-
I agree, and I think your quote on your signature really expresses it well.
Thank you, Robin. It says alot about who I am as a person.
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The first Labradoodle I saw was brown and gold, with golden eyes, very pretty, and I asked the yuppy-ish owner what it was and when he said Labradoodle, I (never having heard of them) said "oh, isn't it neat how beautiful some accidental mixes turn out". I was INFORMED that Camden was a Purebred Labradoodle, a new breed. Duh, Camden is actually a very nice dog, as are most of the 'doodles' who don't shed. I think that is the main attraction for most people. And (OK, flame me here) but most of the Puggles I know really are cute nice little dogs, the best of both breeds.
I wish I had the url for a site that had about 20 dog photos, in pairs, and the game was to pick which was the designer dog and which was the shelter rescue. I missed three, they all looked so darn much alike!
So you can go to the shelter and still have your Puggle or Doodle-whatever!
As long as you don't mix basenjis and Pit Bulls I'll be happy…that's a combo I don't even want to think about!
Anne in Tampa -
Robyn, I would agree totally with you if not thousands of dogs were not being put to sleep every year..
MIXES.
So, save a life, go to the shelter pay $60 or $100 and get a dog you can name a puggle…
Breeding mixes when there are tons seeking homes just is wrong imo.
We will have to agree to disagree on this.My only problem with this line of thought is…. Why breed a basenji when there are tons on BRAT (and those who aren't fortunate enough to make it to BRAT's attention) up for rescue? So I would say responsible breeding is responsible breeding no matter what. ANY type of breeding that ultimately keeps ANY dog (mix or purebred) out of a shelter or a miserable life is good. And honestly, what are all purebreds today? Just generations of picking & choosing & picking to get a certain type of breed.
I hate to see any type of dog in rescue... I do feel torn when it comes to going to a breeder and going to BRAT to get a dog. -
The difference is that good breeders are making our breed stronger.
I truely believe that if every good breeder stopped breeding b's, the breed would die out.
Fanconis would run it course and the breed we love would be lost.
THAT can't be said for mixes.
These designer mixed don't breed true. So what do you think happens to the ugly ones…why, they end up in the shetlers.
Do you see any cocapoo rescues? Any of these puggels rescues?? NO you don't.
Because the shelters are dumping ground for these sad dogs.
So, please, I know you don't mean to be, but to me, its insulting to equal our quality breeders with these folks who just put 2 dogs together for a fad.
Hard to be anything but committed to seeing dogs live, and having dogs die in shelters while someone is making a ton of money on mixes is wrong on toast. -
Just to clarify, I am a strong supporter of adopting from animal shelters and FWIW, I have adopted several dogs and cats from animal shelters throughout the years myself. The four cats I have now, one is an animal shelter adoptee and the other three were strays I took in. Animal shelters can be a great place to find a family companion and many shelters have 25-30% (or more!)dogs that are purebred though not neccesarily very good examples of their breed. The thousands of dogs who are being destroyed at animal shelters each year are not just mixes, plenty of purebreds die too. The common denominator lies in irresponsible breeding and irresponsible owners.
Yes, you can adopt a mix from an animal shelter and call it a Puggle or Labradoodle and that's fine but knowledgable buyers who want a dog (any breed or cross) with a known background and health testing are not going to get it from an animal shelter or rescue. If someone says they want a well bred Cocker Spaniel puppy, do we tell them to just go to a shelter and get a dog who resembles a Cocker? No, we recommend that they go to a responsible breeder who does health testing. But if someone says they want a Cockapoo, many people will say "just go to a shelter and get a dog". Isn't that rather elitist and belittling? How would you (general you, not specific) feel if someone demeaned, reprimanded, or put the guilt trip on you for desiring a specific kind of dog? I wouldn't like it and I don't think most people would either.
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A mix is a mix.
One can pay more for a mix or not.
Calling a breed a breed doesn't make it so.
Imo equating a well bred cocker with a cocapoo doesn't track.
Quality breeders breed purebred dogs. I have recommended many folks to basenji breeders, even tho I only do rescue. It depends on what they want to dog for. Show dogs should come from show dogs.These designer dogs aren't anything more than dogs with good PR.
I wish the shelter dogs were considered to be a dog with the same "so called" status. -
When people who own shelter dogs learn to reply to the question "what kind of dog is that" with the answer, "He/she's a RESCUE dog" with pride and dignity, and can get the awe and respect they deserve for giving an orphaned pet a second chance, THAT'S when the status will be placed where it deserves. When there are competitions that allow people and pets to be recognized not for inbreeding to the point of ridiculousness and genetic disease, to preserve some "desired trait" but for the love and devotion in both pet and owners hearts, THAT'S when the situation will be just.
I don't see it happening, but I can dream.
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I love what you wrote Eskilover.
The thing that bugs me the most is when you see these designer dogs, and ask the owners what it is, they say, "oh, its a new breed"!
That demeans everyone who does the work to have a TRUE breed.
I so wish every dog was loved and wanted. -
When people who own shelter dogs learn to reply to the question "what kind of dog is that" with the answer, "He/she's a RESCUE dog" with pride and dignity, and can get the awe and respect they deserve for giving an orphaned pet a second chance, THAT'S when the status will be placed where it deserves. When there are competitions that allow people and pets to be recognized not for inbreeding to the point of ridiculousness and genetic disease, to preserve some "desired trait" but for the love and devotion in both pet and owners hearts, THAT'S when the situation will be just.I don't see it happening, but I can dream.
huh? there are lots of competitions that allow people and pets to be recognized for all different kinds of things other than what I guess you are describing as conformation shows. How about all the performance events that are available for dogs, both purebred and mixed breed? How about real life working dogs that are both purebred and mixed breed?
If you aren't into the conformation of a dog..fine…but some people are...some people believe that dogs were bred to do certain jobs, and fill certain roles, and they want to preserve that in their chosen breed..fine.
IMO no dog should have more 'status' because of where it came from...that is silly! People should be proud of whatever choice they make in how to add a pet to their family...there is no 'one' right answer.
Now...people on the other hand should gain status based on how they treat their pets....How about we place some blame on the people who get dogs on a whim, and then when they are tired of them dump them at the shelter? Aren't the dogs filling the shelters more the fault of those people, than the people that bred them? I don't, in any way support irresponsible breeding of dogs..but really the animals that are filling the shelters are the fault of people who are not taking the responsibility of pet ownership seriously.....my dream is to address that issue....
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huh? there are lots of competitions that allow people and pets to be recognized for all different kinds of things other than what I guess you are describing as conformation shows. How about all the performance events that are available for dogs, both purebred and mixed breed? How about real life working dogs that are both purebred and mixed breed?
If you aren't into the conformation of a dog..fine…but some people are...some people believe that dogs were bred to do certain jobs, and fill certain roles, and they want to preserve that in their chosen breed..fine.
IMO no dog should have more 'status' because of where it came from...that is silly! People should be proud of whatever choice they make in how to add a pet to their family...there is no 'one' right answer.
Now...people on the other hand should gain status based on how they treat their pets....How about we place some blame on the people who get dogs on a whim, and then when they are tired of them dump them at the shelter? Aren't the dogs filling the shelters more the fault of those people, than the people that bred them? I don't, in any way support irresponsible breeding of dogs..but really the animals that are filling the shelters are the fault of people who are not taking the responsibility of pet ownership seriously.....my dream is to address that issue....
I don't disagree with any of what you said here. I believe in preserving dog breeds that have their function and health put first. I was more thinking of breeds like daschunds (who have been bred to be so much longer than they started out to be that it has weakend their spines) etc. I don't think that conformation shows are evil, or that people who show are stupid or anything like that, but there is so much more publicity and backing for those kinds of things than there are for the flyball, and working dogs, etc. And I say "YES YES YES" to the fault of shelters full of dogs being squarely with irresponsible individuals who don't 'get' that pet ownership is a responsibility for LIFE.
I wasn't trying to run anybody down. I just wish there was more PR for the things I was talking about than for 'designer dogs'
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I disagree about there being more publicity for conformation showing than for the events that are open to all dogs such as FlyBall, Frisbee Dog, Agility, Dock Diving. My local morning show highlights those events fairly regularly because they are fun to attend and make feel good news. Every Pet Expo I have been to have demos of these events but rarely, only one that I have attended, has a demo of conformation showing. These events do get alot of attention, but again, it comes down to the individual to pay attention to what is out there. Most people who participate in organized events with their dogs have a level of commitment that you don't usually see with the general public. It is not a lack of activies nor a lack of publicity that is the problem, it is the amount of time the average person is willing to invest in their relationship with their pet.
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The first Labradoodle I saw was brown and gold, with golden eyes, very pretty, and I asked the yuppy-ish owner what it was and when he said Labradoodle, I (never having heard of them) said "oh, isn't it neat how beautiful some accidental mixes turn out". I was INFORMED that Camden was a Purebred Labradoodle, a new breed. Duh, Camden is actually a very nice dog, as are most of the 'doodles' who don't shed. I think that is the main attraction for most people. And (OK, flame me here) but most of the Puggles I know really are cute nice little dogs, the best of both breeds.
I wish I had the url for a site that had about 20 dog photos, in pairs, and the game was to pick which was the designer dog and which was the shelter rescue. I missed three, they all looked so darn much alike!
So you can go to the shelter and still have your Puggle or Doodle-whatever!
As long as you don't mix basenjis and Pit Bulls I'll be happy…that's a combo I don't even want to think about!
Anne in TampaWhen I was looking for my puppy….it was important to me to adopt from a shelter, and I went to the local humane society, and lo and behold they had a brother and sister pair of basenji/pitbull.....at least that was what they thought they were. I didn't get close enough to do any inspecting- a pit bull is much too large a dog for me, and, not having any experience with the breed, I didn't think I would be able to train them properly, so I had to knock them off my list. I have to say though, that going to the humane society is a heartbreaking experience.....all those big brown eyes looking up at you...
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I don't disagree with any of what you said here. I believe in preserving dog breeds that have their function and health put first. I was more thinking of breeds like daschunds (who have been bred to be so much longer than they started out to be that it has weakend their spines) etc. I don't think that conformation shows are evil, or that people who show are stupid or anything like that, but there is so much more publicity and backing for those kinds of things than there are for the flyball, and working dogs, etc. And I say "YES YES YES" to the fault of shelters full of dogs being squarely with irresponsible individuals who don't 'get' that pet ownership is a responsibility for LIFE.
I wasn't trying to run anybody down. I just wish there was more PR for the things I was talking about than for 'designer dogs'
I also totally disagree with your statement about "publicity" for conformation shows… to most people they are pretty boring.. and other then maybe once in a blue moon are they given any coverage (obvious exception is Westminster and AKC Euk...) and I also disagree with you about Doxie's... there are always going to be responsible and "not" responsible breeders and the Doxie breeders I know are totally aware of the spine problems (that exisits with any long backed dog... including Bassetts and PVGV... just to name one or two.
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When people who own shelter dogs learn to reply to the question "what kind of dog is that" with the answer, "He/she's a RESCUE dog" with pride and dignity, and can get the awe and respect they deserve for giving an orphaned pet a second chance, THAT'S when the status will be placed where it deserves. When there are competitions that allow people and pets to be recognized not for inbreeding to the point of ridiculousness and genetic disease, to preserve some "desired trait" but for the love and devotion in both pet and owners hearts, THAT'S when the situation will be just.
I don't see it happening, but I can dream.
I just wanted to say that I am very proud of my rescue dog. Because of his appearance, the question often comes up, which gives me ample opportunities to extol the virtues of adopting from a shelter. For me, adopting from a shelter was the right thing. My next dog will probably come from BRAT (or a similar rescue group). However, it would make me the happiest person in the world if shelters and rescues were no longer needed and I had to get my next dog from a breeder. Wouldn't that be cool?
