Hello from Taipei, Taiwan!

[Kembe]

@zande
I love viewing the pedigree data. I find it interesting and also fun to view the basenjis that are related. It’s an amazing accumulation of data! ️

[JENGOSMonkey]

@zande said in Hello from Taipei, Taiwan!:

@roux Not a question of etiquette ! Just that I have long since learned that (sadly !) 99% of forum members are not interested in pedigree data and I hesitate to bore them, beyond my normal pleas for names and parentage when a new Basenji is introduced. Which, also sadly, fall on deaf ears most of the time

I wish I had an answer for you, Sally. Keeping track of lineage is a HUGE advantage for any breed. I've never met a responsible breeder who doesn't refer to pedigrees when making mating choices. I don't see myself as an owner of a Basenji. I see myself as a custodian of the breed. Part of that is to help keep the breed pure and healthy. Pedigrees and firsthand knowledge passed on by longtime breeders is key to achieving breed conservation.

I guess I can understand why breeding info might not be important to an owner of a neutered pet, but I can't for the life of me understand why any responsible Basenji breeder would ever refuse to contribute to your Basenji pedigree database. Is what it is I guess. Happy to see that you have Sparkle's litter in there now! YAY!

[Zande]

@jengosmonkey said in Hello from Taipei, Taiwan!:
I see myself as a custodian of the breed. Part of that is to help keep the breed pure and healthy.

Exactly. We are the custodians of this ancient breed and I hate it that, on my watch, so to speak, people have been jumping on the pandemic band wagon and breeding indiscriminately just to make money.

Over here we have seen imported dogs paired without thought of health checks and puppies offered for £2500 whereas reputable breeders only expect £1500.

One 'breeder' has had two litters, totalling 12 puppies and of those, at least 5 have been through rescue. No support or back-up to new owners and no thought to whether a Basenji is the right dog for that person.

Actually though, I do get litter details from reputable breeders around the world. It is the puppy farmers and 'one-off' litters which escape me. I do try to get individual dogs full registered names from Forum members because often I can obtain siblings. Sometimes we are lucky and the pups are already in the d/b. Like Sparkle's ! Stella sent me those a few days back. Not sure, and no time to look now, if we have photos of Logan and Sparkle. If not, PLEASE ???

[tanza]

@zande - Another thing Zande, is that many pet owners do not see a reason to register their dogs. Most all responsible breeders now days register their pups for the new owners. Responsible breeders pick out the registered names with the new owners, of course the call name is up to new owners. Many of the BYB breeders or less than responsible breeders don't even give owners their papers or even a pedigree for that matter.

[eeeefarm]

@tanza said in Hello from Taipei, Taiwan!:

Many of the BYB breeders or less than responsible breeders don't even give owners their papers or even a pedigree for that matter.

In Canada it is illegal to withhold papers on a purebred dog. " Canadian law dictates that if a dog is sold as a purebred, registration papers must be provided, and the breeder must provide them at no additional cost. It is illegal to sell a purebred dog without papers." Link

[Zande]

@eeeefarm It is not always a case of withholiding papers. Some owners simply can't be bothered with them. Don't care if their dog is registered or not.

[JENGOSMonkey]

@zande said in Hello from Taipei, Taiwan!:

...
Over here we have seen imported dogs paired without thought of health checks and puppies offered for £2500 whereas reputable breeders only expect £1500.

One 'breeder' has had two litters, totalling 12 puppies and of those, at least 5 have been through rescue. No support or back-up to new owners and no thought to whether a Basenji is the right dog for that person.

Actually though, I do get litter details from reputable breeders around the world. It is the puppy farmers and 'one-off' litters which escape me.

If there's a dollar or a pound to be made... people will find a way. Just focus on the mechanics of popping out puppies without regard to the history, strengths and weaknesses of the breed. Pay no attention to the decades of effort that went into preserving the breed, eliminating in-breeding and disease. Naw, just keep your costs down and prices high. Hey, you can drive cost down even further by eliminating customer service entirely.

It's easy to spot a responsible breeder. They are the ones that guard the gate to the breed. Anyway, yes.. you have pictures of both Logan and Sparkle in the DB.

[tanza]

@eeeefarm - People just sell without papers.... or pet people have no idea that there are laws in some countries or required practice.... in the end Puppy Mills/BYB don't care about papers either, so even if the give papers there is no real way of verifying if the sire/dam listed are the real ones. Sorry to say.... And many of the PM/BYB just go to these fake registries.... and pass off the pups as "registered".... Especially PM's and BYB's as there is a requirement by AKC that DNA parent testing for a sire that has sire X amount of pups much be DNA tested for any future litters sired. Extra cost reduces their profit and that is what they are in business for, to make money, same with health testing.

[eeeefarm]

Yes, it is sad that people support this practice by buying the pups. Essentially all they have is a "mutt", even if it actually is a purebred. Does it matter? If it's a pet and neutered, possibly not. Still, it is unfortunate. Of course, all the crossbreds (doodles, etc.) that have become fashionable and expensive are also mutts, since if they are not recognized they cannot be registered with any creditable entity. Personally I have nothing against mutts, they are often really good dogs, but if you want a purebred then you should insist on papers and registration, if for no other reason than to prove ownership if your dog is ever "strayed or stolen".

[JENGOSMonkey]

I feel like we've kind of highjacked @Roux' thread. One last thought on puppy mills and responsible breeders. I don't think people looking for a puppy have any ill intent when they buy from a puppy mill. They want a puppy, don't have any intention of showing or breeding, so papers aren't a priority at all. I don't blame people for wanting a dog. My first Basenji was a rescue, so papers weren't important at all. The two I have now do have papers, but that wasn't a priority when I got them either. Never really imagined me showing or being involved with breeding when I got them. Maybe indirectly, but not directly as it's turned out. Road's fork and sometimes we change direction. Working with a responsible breeder, who's trust I had to earn, made changing direction possible.

My disappointment is with the operators of puppy mills who may fake pedigrees, don't health test PRIOR to breeding, don't really understand the breed or the standard when breeding, don't show their dogs which gives them an opportunity to learn more by interacting with other breeders to coordinate ways to improve the breed and their own line, charge high prices, and don't support owners after the purchase. They may say they love the breed, but their actions say different.

My point is... I don't want to berate anyone who may have gotten a puppy from a mill. Instead, I'm hoping we can help educate people about the advantages of getting a puppy from a responsible breeder instead.

[eeeefarm]

Yes, sorry for the thread hijack, but it has led to an important conversation. I would add that some people who start as backyard breeders because they bought a bitch and stuff happened, either planned or inadvertent, actually do progress to being responsible breeders as they learn and come to understand the value of responsible breeding. It's not unusual for people to get serious about something once they begin to fully understand it.

[Roux]

@jengosmonkey
LOL this is a really important convo to be having! I'm honored that it takes place on my thread and yes, I absolutely agree with the points y'all are making.
People do need to know where their pups are coming from and whether they were responsibly bred. To think of it coldly, I wouldn't buy a house without looking into its history and possible problems, or I might face ridiculous stress, expense, and emotional trauma from subsequent issues that come up later. As a consumer, one should do their homework not only on the breed but on the breeder.
A breeder who produces puppies carelessly is basically a horrible human being in my book. It was a huge, thoroughly thought out moral decision for me not to adopt but to buy a purebred puppy, as I've worked with rescues before. I took this step with the possible goal of being a custodian. If a breeder is irresponsible in all the aforementioned ways, not only are they producing dogs with a higher possibility of suffering, muddying this ancient breed, and swindling people, they are needlessly taking potential homes away from dogs that need one AND frequently causing dogs to be abandoned! If there weren't any PMs or BYBs, imagine how many people would get schooled by rescue folk and responsible breeders into taking dog-parenting seriously before they ever took one home!
Sorry for the rant; I COMPLETELY understand the internal screaming that happens within some of you when you find out a pup is from a mill or crap breeder. If people like you and I keep yelling about it, we will change a few minds, which make all the difference to a few dogs which is better than no dogs