@senjisilly just now saw your reply. Thanks for the pedigree website. I knew about it and it’s a great resource.
Ntomba Imports
-
Personally, I'm puzzled by the rationality of voting against any dog that has made it through the documentation and evaluation aspects of the current petition process.
Thank you for such a well thought out post. I remember we actually discussed these dogs a bit ago here and went to look:
http://www.basenjiforums.com/showthread.php?t=11465I am confused about the above comment though. The purpose, surely, of allowing voting is to help avoid political factions from blocking dogs and to enable members to be a part of something that impacts their breed.
No matter what expense you go through to get a dog here, or prelim passing, ultimately, if I were voting and your dog seemed to have qualities I felt were detrimental to the breed or I felt issues such as adequate health testing wasn't done (even if BCOA foolishly allows dogs to be added without them– jmho), I'd have voted no.
Your dogs, all the health testing, lovely looks-- you did it right and the dogs certainly, to my untrained eye, have nothing to make me vote no. But having seen pictures of some other imports, um... yeah I'd be voting no on some of those no matter who else thought they were okay.
I also am confused, or actually disagree, on another point. Yes, it may take "3 to 4 generations of careful breeding to prove out these dogs." The reality is, if these dogs produce poorly even in the 1st and 2nd generation, the likelihood of others using them is small as I would consider 3 and 4 generations out to be more what they were bred to than the originals.
I really wish we had been able to bring in 30 or 40 dogs-- enough to make a real impact. I can't imagine the expense or even feasibility of that though-- just pondering.
-
You will have to be patient with me. I'm not the best writer, and I always create drafts before I post on weighty subjects. Even then, I still make mistakes. I'm more than happy to share my views and address those questions regarding test breedings, health testing of the imports, and the petition process. I'll see if I can get something written during the weekend.
-
LOL, create drafts? THINK before posting? What a novel idea. Wish I had thought of that. Oh wait, I don't–- others wish I had.
Will look forward to your post -
Bryan, on the other thread re Genes, they posted all the health testing of all the dog brought over and submitted. The dog you all brought back had everything tested that "should" be done before breeding. None of the other group had that… didn't surprise me at all that your group had all the "ducks" in a row.
-
Thank you for such a well thought out post. I remember we actually discussed these dogs a bit ago here and went to look:
http://www.basenjiforums.com/showthread.php?t=11465
No matter what expense you go through to get a dog here, or prelim passing, ultimately, if I were voting and your dog seemed to have qualities I felt were detrimental to the breed or I felt issues such as adequate health testing wasn't done (even if BCOA foolishly allows dogs to be added without them– jmho), I'd have voted no.
Foolish not to have every test done before stud book submission? I don't know. Non-ideal, yes. I'd like for all health testing to be done before submission personally but it's not a deal breaker for me to make a decision whether a dog should be entered into the stud book. Practically, both the risks for possible introduction of known health issues as well as the risk of introducing "detrimental qualities" into the current gene pool can be easily managed. Like Bryan said, breeders just won't breed to those dogs if whatever they are concerned about (particular health issues or concerns around their "purity"/geographic origin) exists in those dogs. And you can complete all of the other health tests after they are in the stud book too. And we know a one-time thyroid test at 1 yr is not a 100% predictive that the puppies they may later produce won't have thyroid issues. Same with other tests, knowing the results helps you make better breeding plan decisions and minimize risk that you'll produce something you don't want from a health perspective.
If you look at the differences in the related threads, they focus really more on the philosophical versus the practical. I just read through the Petition for the Stud Book and the FAQ on the Native Stock Committee page. They are quick reads and touch on a lot of points we've discussed around concerns around health testing, non-basenij type, test breedings, etc.
https://www.basenji.org/NativeStock/Application/BasenjiStudbookPetition.pdf
https://www.basenji.org/NativeStock/FAQ.htm
I don't really know, but I imagine that the petition was a document of compromise. As contentious as I've seen conversations get online, I can see how that would happen.
-
A friend of mine who breeds, shows and loves b's said the reason we all get so "headup" is that we care so very much for the breed. I think that is very true.
-
I think that the basic health testing is as important as any issue. Why admit a dog that has heart, hip and eye problems? Certainly not one that is a probably affected fanconi or HA. Frankly, I think all the tests should be done BEFORE breeding, but with the main purpose of even bringing in the African stock supposedly to add genes, why admit a dog that should not be added right up front for health issues? Of course they can develop thyroid AND heart problems later, but at least have those cleared at time of application. We won't agree on that one.
-
I think your post is right on. IMO, all the health testing should be done before admitting. The Ntomba imports were also dna re color.
-
I think your post is right on. IMO, all the health testing should be done before admitting. The Ntomba imports were also dna re color.
Color would be way down the list for me…. Heck, we have Trindles and I think that is the worst color I have ever seen on a Basenji... However (before every starts jumping up and down), I can appreciate a good dog regardless of the color. As they say, it is only skin deep. But I don't want one.
And while I agree that all testing should be done before they are admitted, since it is not required as part of the application process, can't be demanded. It becomes something of choice. Add to things that can change with age are Eye Exams since they are only good for one year. IMO, since heart problems have not really been much of a problem in Basenjis, that would be lower on my list for any dog being tested (Import or Domestic). The ones I think are important are Hips & Elbows (Prelim if under 2yrs), DNA for Fanconi, Eyes, Thyroid, Patellas.
-
And while I agree that all testing should be done before they are admitted, since it is not required as part of the application process, can't be demanded.
Exactly right Pat!
Just as their is no requirement for test breedings before (or after acceptance), or for all dogs imported needing to be submitted or even accessible for viewing to the voting public, or for videos or photographs of dogs found in the areas the imports come from to prove provenance [which in truth would prove very little to me, since you can not videotape and/or photograph/document every single animal; what's to stop someone from just picking the more standardized looking samples for their provenance examples? While I would personally be more suspect of seeing cookie cutter dogs in videos or photographs straight from Africa then I would seeing a mix and mash of the same traits we find in the domestic population [I would expect mix and mash based on historical details of what other importers saw themselves, I would not expect cookie cutter examples] not everyone would and might easily be fooled into thinking one set of dogs is more basenji than the other.]
Yes, these things might be something we all desire to some degree but in the end - they are not required and they can not be demanded. The beauty is - we can make our own decision on what we can or can not live with and choose to either breed to them or not. As Bryan says - if not embraced and used within the fancy, those dogs will be but a blip on the radar screen, hardly worth the angst or the discussion they have generated.
Since none of the above have ever been required for those that came before, it would be unfair to this reader to just change the rules in the middle of the game, just because it suits a few people on a public forum.
-
Since none of the above have ever been required for those that came before, it would be unfair to this reader to just change the rules in the middle of the game, just because it suits a few people on a public forum.
The concerns from all viewpoints brought up here were addressed to some degree in the 2008 studbook petition and changes were made to the previous stud book process to address them (e.g. lack of a membership participation previously). The process has been changed and hasn't been the same for every native stock dog, unless I'm reading the native stock committee documentation incorrectly. It's not just a few people on a public forum who have had some concerns with the process, it's just a few people on a public forum discussing them.
And yes, most of this doesn't really matter this go around because we have a set process. The current process attempted to address those previous concerns, but obviously won't make everyone happy. It is what it is. That does not mean there is not room for improvement if the stud book is opened again.
-
I would also say that just because you set a procedure in place, there is no reason it can not be improved on and changed. Many times what seemed to be reasonable doesn't turn out that way. So if it means a change to the current procedure and the BOD and members agree, that is what should be done regardless if during the current open stud book time frame or future.
What if AKC was requested to keep the stud books open as an extention to this current time period? Should we just go along with what is being done now when there are improvements to the procedure that can be made? IMO, the answer is easy. And in a word YES, we should always look to improve the process.
Add to this the fact that maybe where these imports come from and the relationship to the general population of dogs should be incorporated into the procedure. IMO again, that would be a good thing. -
This post is titled Ntomba imports and I would like to discuss the process of imports and stud book acceptance without people assuming I am talking about Ntomba dogs so I would like to start another thread about the process.
Just wanted to clarify why I am not just responding here about this.
Therese -
I would also say that just because you set a procedure in place, there is no reason it can not be improved on and changed.
Thank you, so obvious it makes me feel faint.
-
@Therese:
This post is titled Ntomba imports and I would like to discuss the process of imports and stud book acceptance without people assuming I am talking about Ntomba dogs so I would like to start another thread about the process.
Just wanted to clarify why I am not just responding here about this.
ThereseGood point. The conversation did wander as usual….
-
LOL all boards since the beginning of the internet get infected with "thread drift."
-
Ok, here is a start. I'm going to address test breeding first, as it appears several people feel there should be a test breeding requirement in the petition process. I once thought the same 23 years ago when the Avongara were introduced when I was relativity new to dog breeding.
Test breedings are not required by the current petition process, though the process does require any offspring produce by the subject dog be documented and a photo submitted. I agree with the current requirements. With the limited time frame which the stud book is open, requiring test breedings creates huge problems. Logistics tends to promote the importing of puppies. It a take a minimum three years to produce one test breeding of the import dog, if imported as a puppy, and to produce offspring old enough to make an evaluation, and even this is poor determination of the subject dog, as it will only produce five or so offspring to draw conclusions. Under these conditions, the petitioner would simply choose a breeding which is apt to produce the most favorable results. It would be unreasonable to dictate in the petition process regarding what constitute a test breeding, as for what constitute a test breeding differ with each dog and how the petitioner wants to proceed with proving out whether the dog breeds true to the standard. Given the current five year opening of the stud book, it is not reasonable to require test breedings, and even if the program was extended another five years.
Only a perpetual open stud book would accommodate a test breeding requirement. The Society for the Perpetuation of Desert Bred Salukis is a good example how this is done. Desert bred salukis are accepted into the Society for the Perpetuation of Desert Bred Salukis much as the current basenji petition process, after three generations, they may apply for AKC registration. The Society for the Perpetuation of Desert Bred Salukis is one of few domestic, if not the only domestic registry AKC recognizes. Quality and health is maintained by popular acceptance. This a very involved program, and too challenging to implement for the basenji breed, given the few dogs imported. I do have to admire the ability to travel to Africa, purchase a working Salukis from the Bedouins and have an assured path to AKC registration.
Conformation breeding follows basic ideologies. We study pedigrees, evaluate parents, grandparents, and great grand parents, looking at the pedigrees both vertically and horizontally. Experience has taught us what traits are recessive and those dominate and we can plan a litter with some expectations of what the results will be. There many good books on the art of breeding for conformation.
When dealing with a dog that has no pedigree, no parents or grand parents to evaluate, predictability is more difficult. A test breeding program is more suitable to prove out these dogs. For test breedings, I follow more of a scientific methodology than conformation breeding ideologies to draw an accurate conclusion. Basically, forming a question, a theory, making a prediction, then setting up a test breeding, evaluate the results of the test breeding and draw a conclusion.
Tamra Green, discussing Dwarfism in Great Pyrenees phrase what a test breeding is quite well, "Test breeding by definition is the use of a known genetic carrier bred to a mate of unknown genetic status for the purpose of visually evaluating the progeny of the union. Test breeding has traditionally been the method breeders have used to control undesirable traits in their breeding stock. Using careful breeding techniques, it is possible to lessen the appearance of a trait through removal of carriers. This technique is especially true for an autosomal recessive trait. Since both parents need to be carriers of this single gene defect for the trait to appear, it is relatively straightforward to determine who is a carrier, with a degree of statistical certainty."
It was suggested that we should breed two of the Ntomba dogs together as a test breeding, Mosika and Lokolanga for example. I know absolutely nothing regarding parents or grand parents of these dogs. I suspect Mosika and Lokoso are littermates, and Lokolanga and Mbengi are littermate, however I have no proof. Making a prediction is possible. I can draw from conformation breeding experiences regarding phenotype and what traits maybe recessive and dominate. The breeding of Mosika and Lokolanga would likely produce a wide variation in the puppies. One prospective parent is large, the other is small. One has full tail curl, the other a sickle tail. Mosika's red coat would be diminished by Lokolanga light coat. Than there are the traits in common, short muzzle, moderate wrinkle, almond eye, upright ears. The litter would produce only a small sampling, 5 puppies or so. If the breeding produced a trait truly uncommon for the basenji breed such a wide set downed ear, or repetitive barking, you could not determine which parent the offending trait came from or if its a combination. This makes for a very poor test, based on a vague question, basic predictions, and no means to draw a concise conclusion.
I suspect what some people are referring to as a test breeding is the desire of a demonstration breeding between native imports from a region to demonstrate variation. With only using two dogs, such a breeding is unlikely to demonstrate the variation within that region, including traits truly uncommon for the basenji breed, the sampling, 5 or so puppies in not sufficient to draw conclusions. Phonotypically, using basic conformation breeding ideology, one can predict some of the puppies' traits. As a basenji breeder, I know the red color derived from the Agouti series is difficult to maintain, and easily lost. Lokolanga light coat will diminish Mosika's red coat. I can go through a whole list of traits, which I can give basic predictions. The breeding will not specifically prove the merits of either dog. Conducting any test breeding with Lokolanga is very changeling, as she will only be able to produce a small sampling of direct descendants. Sue Ann Bowling said it best, "For obvious reasons bitches were rarely test bred, especially in breeds with small litters - too much of her reproductive life would be lost in demonstrating that she was not a carrier." Each litter Lokolanga produces must provide sound conclusions; this can not be done breeding her to an unknown.
My test breeding utilizing the Ntomba dogs will be highly structured and involve domestic breed basenjis with predicable ability to produce basenji traits, testing will be over several generations to increase the additive relationship coefficient of Ntomba dogs. I want my endeavor to be solid; the goal to introduce foundation stock is not easy. Popular acceptance is very difficult. And there is possibility these dog may not breed true.
-
Well said Bryan. Thank you for this post.
-
Interesting post. Well written, thoughtful. Hard to disagree/argue with any points. Thank you for taking the time to write.
-
Well I wrote a response and it disappeared!
First, thanks again for great post. I am not so in favor of test breeding, even if we had more time, unless we were dealing with a health issue for which there was no testing. But general health clearances–- sorry but I am sad the BCOA did not step up to the plate and defend the breed and dogs better by making it a requirement for basic tests to be done before admission. It seems like a no-brainer to me no matter what was done with previous dogs. I don't care about being "fair" to importers, I care about being "fair" to the breed.
I also wish to say thank goodness the forum is back!
