For Sale: Basenji pups For Sale in Nampa ID

[Patty]

It seems that there is quite a dispute in the USA about these Avuvi dogs and I apologise for bringing it up - I was rather puzzled I must say.

Linda, I called Manou an expert as I found her extremely knowledgeable about the Avuvi in it's native land, she didn't claim to be so. I don't know and have never spoken to the other lady you mentioned but I'm sure she is knowledgeable too.

Linda, when the original basenjis were brought in to the UK, they were brought in by people who had Basenjis in the Congo. At that time most came from areas where only the so called Basenji lived and had done so 'for ever'. Obviously they brought Basenjis in that appealed to them for various reasons. The original standard was drawn up with the help of a small group of people who had known Basenjis in their native habitat. Yes there was a measure of culling but mainly for colours that were not considered acceptable I didn't and don't agree with that. Basenjis bred that didn't appeal went as pets and weren't shown. I can assure you that loose tails do still appear (I have one, but that doesn't take her outside the standard.

Janneke, I do not agree that any Basenji like dog, if healthy should be thrown into the gene pool, Cross breeds and mongrels would be then created. Why have a Basenji and then alter it? If people want to change a breed why pick such an ancient one? That's my opinion anyhow and I have spent most of my life endeavouring to breed an original type, which meant good temperament, character and intelligence. To each it's own, I agree.

There was talk of them having bad temperaments but this wasn't really true. The trouble was that people who owned them and had not known them in their native habitat didn't have the first idea of how a Basenji should be reared but tried to treat them as other dogs they'd bred or owned.

Ivoss, I assume there is a DNA test to prove whether Basenjis are pure bred or not? Why is it that it isn't used for dogs under dispute?

[Patty]

My previous post was made at the same time as the one before.

I now see that, as my original impression of her that Manou is indeed an expert!

[tanza]

@sinbaje:

This means I am not so quick to write off native dogs that do not 100% conform to the breed standard - esp. since I feel the breed standard was based more on our human founders preferences vs. reality. I mean if only 1 out of 10 native dog has a short back - what is the reality?

I think that if you go back and look at the ones that have been accepted, they are all missing something in the Breed Standard…. and add to the all the American lines, Aussie lines, Europe Lines, etc.... since the breed standard represents the "perfect" Basenji. I think the word that most use is Breed Type, not the Breed Standard

[tlish]

@JoT:

Good grief. Once again you have no idea what you are talking about. You did in fact jump to a conclusion and posted without any information.

what conclusion did the OP jump to? didn't he/she simply ask a question?

@JoT:

Your statement is an insult to Africans and nothing more than propaganda to promote your own agenda.
Jo

which statement was an insult to Africans? what is his/her agenda?

[lvoss]

@Patty:

Ivoss, I assume there is a DNA test to prove whether Basenjis are pure bred or not? Why is it that it isn't used for dogs under dispute?

There is no such test.

[DebraDownSouth]

@Patty:

It seems that there is quite a dispute in the USA about these Avuvi dogs and I apologise for bringing it up - I was rather puzzled I must say.

Janneke, I do not agree that any Basenji like dog, if healthy should be thrown into the gene pool, Cross breeds and mongrels would be then created. Why have a Basenji and then alter it?

Ivoss, I assume there is a DNA test to prove whether Basenjis are pure bred or not? Why is it that it isn't used for dogs under dispute?

Why should you apologize for asking a question that is educational and valid?

Um.. all breeds of dogs developed from "mongrels" through selective breeding. Only with the creation of stud books did breeds really come about. On closed systems (ie island and isolated areas) you got certain characteristics even in ancient times, but that didn't mean other dogs didn't breed with them, or even an occasional wild canine. In reality, the concept of purebred is a man-made one and most breeds in FCI and AKC measure their existence in a hundred or couple of hundred years, not thousands of years.

Not Ivoss… but DNA can help pinpoint if mostly basenji... but I would suspect many wild african dogs share many similar genes making it at best hard if not impossible to really eliminate dogs that way YET.

@JoT:

Good grief. Once again you have no idea what you are talking about.
Your statement is an insult to Africans and nothing more than propaganda to promote your own agenda.
Jo

You are the one who posted without thinking and your post is a personal attack and insult. Questioning and having an opinion doesn't make it propaganda or an insult to anyone. Your abusive post to her, not so clean. Wipe the spittle off your face before it ruins your keyboard and attempt to post facts and information without the attacks.

@sinbaje:

Here are my thoughts.

The original "basenji" was nothing more than a village dog that had similar type. Only the western world has "made" them what they are today where they can produce rather uniformly. …

In a world according to me - I think it would be a good thing to leave the stud book open indefinitely for native stock making sure that we have things in place...

Ditto on breed development… but I don't care who is the expert. The only issue to me is truth in lending (or selling) as it were. Had she posted truth... that these are African dogs who might never make it into the stud books, who are not certified basenjis and that have not had testing on, I'd have no issue. It was the disingenuous posting, hemming and hawing, abuse of anyone questioning and avoidance of answers that bother me. If she wants to work on those dogs, hell develop her own breed, I don't care. But don't call them basenjis, don't try to pretend you have done health testing when you haven't, and don't insult people for asking questions when you don't give straight information.

[BendaTXBRAT]

@JoT:

Good grief. Once again you have no idea what you are talking about. You did in fact jump to a conclusion and posted without any information.

Your comment is a gross untruth of Manu (her given name is Emmanuelle Occansey).
Manu's ancestry comes from the land that is the origin of the Avuvi breed. Her father was from Togo and that is where she was born and raised. As a native African woman, she has also lived in Senegal, Ghana, Cameroon and now is back living in Ghana.
She is an extremely astute and studious woman with a lifelong (nearly 40 years) interest in and study of the dogs of her homeland.
She has always been recognized as one of the preeminent experts on West African dogs and is known around the world as an expert. **Why do you think that you can belittle her authority?**In fact, if you had taken a moment to think before you posted, you might remember that it was Manu who Robert Dean emulated when the Avuvi Project was first developed (as a an effort to conserve the distinct dog breed / type found in Liberia, C?te D'Ivoire, Ghana, Togo, Burkina Faso, Benin and Nigeria; corresponding to the people who speak the Gb? languages: Mina, Aja, Fon and ?w?).
Manu was critical to the original design and execution of the Avuvi imports of 2004. She was acknowledged by Robert Dean (for example, see THE YODELER - Mid Atlantic Basenji Club NEWSLETTER June/July 2005).

When the original Avuvi Project was designed around the aboriginal dogs of that discreet region, the original website (now defunct) included the attached article written by Emmanuelle Occansey (Manu) in 2003.
Additionally, recognizing her as an expert, she was enlisted in 2006 to facilitate the importation of Jengi dogs from Cameroon, generously boarding the eight puppies in her Buea, Cameroon home.

Your statement is an insult to Africans and nothing more than propaganda to promote your own agenda.
Jo

Uh- RUDE.

She simply asked for help finding info, and to be educated. She didnt belittle anyone. Get over yourself.

[sinbaje]

JoT:

Since you presume to know me as you state "Once again…" and I do not know of any Jo's in the DRC, nor have had any conversations with any person who lives in the DRC I can only presume this is Jo Thompson from Ohio?

Regardless, I would have you please re-read what I wrote before the public flogging; I specifically asked for credentials and stated "as far as I know..." so of course I do not know since I admitted as much. :O)

Sorry, but I did not jump to any conclusions. Asking for more information is not jumping to conclusions - it is seeking more information in order to come to a conclusion, any conclusion. And since I have not studied the Avuvi to the degree you apparently have, I have little knowledge in who did what, and when and where, so I do appreciate the history lesson.

Now then - I would love to hear what my agenda is if you would be so kind since I have no native dogs needing inclusion and do not plan to have any in the foreseeable future.

Thanks.

[Patty M]

Well, we all have to start at Post #1. And I say that respectfully to all newcomers here.

What I don't "get" is when a new poster shows up, leaves an inflammatory statement, and then settles into the background. ??? I mean, if you want to join the conversation and debate with heartfelt emotions, that is great! But if there are no follow up postings, how can we "WELCOME" you to the forum?

But alas, when I think of the different shades of blue… royal blue, turquoise, meadow blue, sky blue, cornflower, baby blue... there are many names for it. Miss Robyn... what are the other names for shades of gray? Grey? lol...

Cheers! Marie, have you re-homed any pups yet, lol?????

[Quercus]

People here also need to keep in mind that lots of us know each other from different lists, and real life situations…and some people have a history of stirring up trouble, or what have you in other "places"; some topics just push all the wrong buttons for people; something that seems like an innocent question, may be a pointed accusation....Just because something doesn't make sense, or seems out of the blue to you, doesn't mean that it is.

Although, I have to admit that I am not sure what Linda's agenda is...

[sinbaje]

Andrea, I do not want to assume here.

1. Are you saying I have the history of stirring up trouble? If yes, could you elaborate - here or privately - whichever works for you as I have nothing to hide. I think folks can go back and read my whopping 157 posts to this forum in 4 1/2 years and find I have not stirred up any kind of trouble that I can recall.
   Yes - while I have differing opinions or ask some hard questions on various other lists - it is hardly troublemaking - it is just differing of opinions/asking questions and I have always been open, honest and very civil in all of my exchanges public and private-again hardly troublemaking.
2. Did you really read my post as an accusation? Have you ever known me to not just say what I mean and mean what I say in what I hope is a very clear and conscise manner? If I meant to accuse anyone of anything in my recent posts, I would not have minced words about.
3. Are you saying you feel as though I have an agenda but do not know what it is or are you saying you don't feel as though I have an agenda therefore you do not know what it is?
   If you feel I have an agenda - could you (or Jo or anyone else who is privvy to it) please elaborate what I could possibly have an agenda about. I mean I do not have any native stock therefore I have no vested interest at all so what is exactly is my motive for this perceived agenda?
   I am truly at a loss here. :O)
   Thanks.

[Nemo]

@sinbaje:

Andrea, I do not want to assume here.

1. Are you saying I have the history of stirring up trouble? If yes, could you elaborate - here or privately - whichever works for you as I have nothing to hide. I think folks can go back and read my whopping 157 posts to this forum in 4 1/2 years and find I have not stirred up any kind of trouble that I can recall.
   Yes - while I have differing opinions or ask some hard questions on various other lists - it is hardly troublemaking - it is just differing of opinions/asking questions and I have always been open, honest and very civil in all of my exchanges public and private-again hardly troublemaking.
2. Did you really read my post as an accusation? Have you ever known me to not just say what I mean and mean what I say in what I hope is a very clear and conscise manner? If I meant to accuse anyone of anything in my recent posts, I would not have minced words about.
3. Are you saying you feel as though I have an agenda but do not know what it is or are you saying you don't feel as though I have an agenda therefore you do not know what it is?
   If you feel I have an agenda - could you (or Jo or anyone else who is privvy to it) please elaborate what I could possibly have an agenda about. I mean I do not have any native stock therefore I have no vested interest at all so what is exactly is my motive for this perceived agenda?
   I am truly at a loss here. :O)
   Thanks.

I could be assuming here :rolleyes: but I didn't interpret Andrea's post being directed at you. This thread did start in a different subject than it is currently on. A new one really should be started if people want to keep discussing whatever the current subject has turned into, otherwise it's just going to get even more confusing.

[JoT]

@sinbaje:

JoT:
I do not know of any Jo's in the DRC, nor have had any conversations with any person who lives in the DRC I can only presume this is Jo Thompson from Ohio?

Thank you for starting my day off with a smile. I do so appreciate your sense of humor to warm me up on this cold morning in Ohio.
Although I have been on this forum since 2007, I only check in when I have been asked to read a thread or particular post.

For those of you who do not understand the amusing implication of the comment above, of course Linda knows that I continue to live and work part of the time (and sometimes all of the time) in the Democratic Republic of Congo (as I have for nearly two decades). When I signed onto this group, I was in my Kinshasa (capital of the DRCongo) home.

Thank you for the laughter. Have a great day!
Jo

[sinbaje]

Well you know what they say about laughter…...glad I could be of service. Lord knows I try!

@JoT:

"….. of course Linda knows that I continue to live and work part of the time ..."

One thing I have found as I have gotten older - when a person thinks they know me (or worse - speaks for me) they tend to give me more knowledge than I can ever take credit for. Sorry Jo but I have to honestly say I do not know you live or have lived in the DCR - at least not by how I define "live". Yes, I know you have worked there studying Bonobo's - which of course (I assume) meant spending long stretches of time in their habitat but to me that is vastly different then taking up permanent residence.

My ex-husband used to spend upwards of 6 months in once place (no place as cool as Africa though!) for work but we never considered him as being a resident of those towns even though he rented a house each time. Semantics? Most definitely but your implication is that I have intimate knowledge of your whereabouts or the number of homes you might own, when I do not (Ohio aside as that is in the BCOA Roster). I have never met you in person that I recall, have only seen you in person once or twice at a Specialty and we have only had a few dozen private exchanges in the time you have been in the breed, that were not at all personal in nature (ie exchanging of personal information), therefore the only knowledge I have about you is anything you have posted to the various lists or breed publications and or course my retention of it. I had no idea you actually had a house in the DRC - how cool is that? I always figured you "hung out with the natives" the whole time studying - as we see on the Nature shows. In light of that - I could definitely see the humor in my childlike thought process. Def. my bad.

[DebraDownSouth]

@JoT:

Thank you for starting my day off with a smile. …
For those of you who do not understand the amusing implication of the comment above, of course Linda knows that I continue to live and work part of the time (and sometimes all of the time) in the Democratic Republic of Congo (as I have for nearly two decades). When I signed onto this group, I was in my Kinshasa (capital of the DRCongo) home.

Thank you for the laughter. Have a great day!
Jo

I was angry and wrote a book, so going to edit down to essentials…

I just clicked on your profile, and yeah it says where you are from. I am sorry, but why presume others KNOW who you are, that no other person from DRC might use "JoT" than the great Dr Thompson. Why not just say who you are? Frankly I wouldn't have suspected that the person making that post was the same one whose work I have so admired.

Your indication that living in the DCR is proof of Manu's (or your) ultimate knowledge of Basenjis before... now you give me a reason to laugh. With a population of over 4 million, do you think that living there makes all those 4 million experts? Really? And even if in a group of 5 "experts," do you think you would get agreement? Really?

Stating what you DID while there, yeah that has validity. But even your involvement in the Lukuru project doesn't make you RIGHT or the ultimate expert on what is right for the breed. People get to have opinions that differ from yours even if you single handedly found, brought every single dog here and funded it down to the penny (which you didn't). It is one thing to acknowledge contribution, however considerable, and another to assume those contributions mean you get to shut down and treat others with disrespect for different views. Nor does involvement in any number of projects, or considered an expert doesn't mean they are always right, doesn't mean they are really knowledgeable, doesn't mean they aren't driving their own "agenda" or "propaganda."

Many ideas have been deemed wrong or stupid by vast majority of "experts," then proven that the majority was utterly WRONG and the stupid idea right. She didn't state facts, she stated her OPINION, to which she has as much right as you do.

Had you simply stated who you were, your experiences and hers, discussed your VIEWS, great. But to indicate that just being FROM the Congo makes you experts and saying someone who disagrees with someone FROM there is INSULTING is ridiculous.

The attack on Linda was unprofessional, uncalled for. You may have many valid views, sadly the attack blurred any valuable info.

Btw, I thought her pretending to not be sure who you were was either diplomatic and giving you a nudge to introduce yourself or perhaps a jab at your ego since I am sure she knows most here who are not breeders didn't have a clue and your presumption EVERYONE DID was poke worthy.

[tanza]

@DebraDownSouth:

Even your involvement in the Lukuru project doesn't make you RIGHT or the ultimate expert on what is right for the breed. .

I disagree with you…. She is most certainly the expert on Lukuru project, as she IS the Lukuru Project. I don't think Dr. Jo ever said she was the ultimate expert on what was right for the breed, only pointing out that some of these last imports are not of Basenji Type, of which I fully agree.

[DebraDownSouth]

@tanza:

I disagree with you…. She is most certainly the expert on Lukuru project, as she IS the Lukuru Project. I don't think Dr. Jo ever said she was the ultimate expert on what was right for the breed, only pointing out that some of these last imports are not of Basenji Type, of which I fully agree.

I said: Even your involvement in the Lukuru project doesn't make you RIGHT or the ultimate expert on what is right for the breed.

However, lol, Dr Jo didn't say anything about the last imports, her views, etc… she only attacked Linda and indicated she was spreading propaganda to promote her agenda. THAT is the issue. Had Dr Jo stated her OPINIONS and why, this would have been a very illuminating educational discussion. All she did was ascribe such motives as if anyone who disagreed must have them as they couldn't actually have such an opinion. She didn't even say even say what she was attacking or what she assumed those motives were.

[DebraDownSouth]

Pat,
Is there somewhere to view the last imports? Are you talking about imports that were accepted into the AKC, or those not accepted or not applied for acceptance? I would love to see pictures and hear what you think is lacking … especially for any accepted. If not correct breed type, why were they accepted, or did the committee disagree and think they were okay?

[Janneke]

@DebraDownSouth:

Pat,
Is there somewhere to view the last imports? Are you talking about imports that were accepted into the AKC, or those not accepted or not applied for acceptance? I would love to see pictures and hear what you think is lacking … especially for any accepted. If not correct breed type, why were they accepted, or did the committee disagree and think they were okay?

http://www.basenji.org/african/imports.htm

[Janneke]

@Patty:

Janneke, I do not agree that any Basenji like dog, if healthy should be thrown into the gene pool, Cross breeds and mongrels would be then created. Why have a Basenji and then alter it? If people want to change a breed why pick such an ancient one? That's my opinion anyhow and I have spent most of my life endeavouring to breed an original type, which meant good temperament, character and intelligence. To each it's own, I agree.

Patty, I agree. Not any Basenji like dog should be thrown into the gene pool. But that is not what is happening now or is it? There is a selection procedure that every dog has to go through. Not everyone will agree with the dogs being accepted, because everyone has his/her own view on how a Basenji should look and what is accepted in an import and what isn't. But no one is obligated to use the dogs in his/her breeding program. And we also have enough differences in pure bred lines.

I think that if you would leave the stud book open, you can be more selective when accepting a dog. Now I get the feeling that people are rushing to Africa, grabbing every nice enough puppy they can find (;)) If the stud book is open you don't have to add new dogs every year, you can wait and see, maybe import dogs and see what they produce before accepting them etc. I have to admit, I don't like all the dogs accepted either.. But I don't agree that breeding them will only create mongrels and cross breeds. We are not adding just any dog, but a dog that resembles our pure breds really close/close enough.

I sometimes wonder if the Basenji is really ancient.. or really new… We picked a couple of dogs and decided that was the Basenji.. I think a fully closed population with such a small basis will ruin our beautiful breed. I would then rather vote for a little bit of "mongrelness".. (adding dogs who are maybe from the same 'ancient' type of dog..)