For Sale: Basenji pups For Sale in Nampa ID

[rmholt]

@Quercus:

I know Sharron. I have seen this all evolve from the beginning That is why I described the breeder as "unorthodox"

No disrespect but no one has seen this evolve from the beginning the way I have. You werent in Africa with me. You dont know what I am thinking or what my goals are.

It finally occurred to me that I dont have to tell everybody everything on demand. My responsibility is to the dogs, the puppy people and the Avuvi project in that order. The AKC and show folks come last.

[rmholt]

@sharronhurlbut:

Sorry, Quercus, there is some debate as to the real "basenjiness "of these puppies.
They might be african, but if they are b's they have NOT been accepted by the folks who allow new basenji blood into the BCOA.
Sorry Marie, I know you want to do what you want to do, but if many folks opionions, your breeding african dogs.

It is very very difficult for a dog to get into the AKC without the owner applying for consideration and so far no one has completed the process. We have time. We arent in a big hurry. Sorry.

[rmholt]

@DebraDownSouth:

Why not post the health though?

The not AKC I guessed had to do with breeding African stock that isn't accepted into the registry. Since I am not a breeder, not going to question that as really, I don't want to know lol. But again, why wouldn't she just post the health testing?

The minute you are interested you get all the info that isnt on OFA. Oh, and you have to give me your identity and convince me you know what you are doing, considering a basenji much less an African.

[rmholt]

Health results are important but they certainly arent everything important to the pup owner or the breeder. So far we have had an ad for pups followed by a lot of comments many of which have come up before, all about health results, nothing else, nothing about temperaments, socialization, behaviors to look for, differences between Africans and domestics, what a buyer needs to be able to provide that might not be in the breed books. Also references to other Avuvi and Avongara breeders. I'm sad the discussion on you all's side has stalled out since 2006 or earlier.

If I dont know YOUR info, you will get nothing from me that isnt out there for everyone.

I also have some info in the CPP but need to catch up on it.

[Patty M]

I'm not a breeder, just a basenji lover, and while I care about the dog's health, the papers that are often included with a purebred offer peace of mind, and then they are shoved into the back of a desk drawer. Being a purebred with papers doesn't mean that the dog's health is 100% clear… as evident if you look up my Lola in the OFA database (her birth name is Halo, Dec 2008).

I'm still wanting pictures, because there's nothing more adorable than basenji puppies!

[lvoss]

@rmholt:

The BCOA is behind in areas on familial disease particularly in the DLA area, ie genetic diversity, MHO. Some diseases are fairly common but not talked about unless someone asks specifically about it.

BCOA focuses on health issues for which it has data that there is a significant issue. The only way they have to know if a problem is significant in the breed is through self reporting on the CPP site or through the data reported to the club by OFA or CERF.

If you have data about the incidence of this familian disease please submit it. If it is statistically significant the BCOA health committee would be interested.

@rmholt:

OFA okays breeding down to the FAIR level. That isnt very selective and includes almost every dog in the registry. We have small fit dogs with low likelihood of hip problems even in their inbred state, even if they score FAIR.

This is not a accurate summary of the OFA database and breeding recommendations. OFA's database is only semi-open. They only list abnormal results by request of the owner. It is also important to keep in mind that some people will not submit results that they feel will get an abnormal rating so with any test where the owner can see the result or guess at the result of the test prior to submission there may be some skewing of the data due to lack of submission of suspect results.

As for the OFA breeding recommendations, they recommend that breeders use vertical pedigrees to make breeding decisions and provides a link to the vertical pedigrees. It is there recommendation that it is better to breed to a FAIR from a family of mostly GOODs ands EXCELLENTs then it is to breed to a GOOD or EXCELLENT from a family of mostly FAIR and Dysplastic. Of course, this means that a breeder has to actually have vertical data instead of just horizontal data to make a decision.

[Quercus]

@rmholt:

No disrespect but no one has seen this evolve from the beginning the way I have. You werent in Africa with me. You dont know what I am thinking or what my goals are.

It finally occurred to me that I dont have to tell everybody everything on demand. My responsibility is to the dogs, the puppy people and the Avuvi project in that order. The AKC and show folks come last.

I certainly didn't say that I had seen or knew more about this project than you. I was simply making it clear that I am aware of the controversy surrounding your dogs and whether or not they are Basenjis. I wouldn't even pretend to know what you are thinking; but you do a pretty thorough job of defending your choices, even if nobody else agrees with your defense. I say "unorthodox" because you do exactly what you want to do, and don't give a damn what anybody else thinks, knows, or believes…I would call that unorthodox. That is really the kindest description I can come up with....

[DebraDownSouth]

@rmholt:

Health testing: Whatever I have done through OFA is on there. As for other tests and health issues, any serious potential buyer will get all the info I have to give.
Some diseases are fairly common but not talked about unless someone asks specifically about it. ..A full battery of tests doesnt guarantee against serious disease.

The pups are almost ready to have their hips done, but I do question the idea of spending a lot of money on this test. OFA okays breeding down to the FAIR level. That isnt very selective and includes almost every dog in the registry. We have small fit dogs with low likelihood of hip problems even in their inbred state, even if they score FAIR.

I will verify that I am behind in Fanconi testing to be corrected as soon as the kits get here. I will tell you that all the imports are PK normal.

I wasn't going to wade in, but wtheck.

1. My experience is if you post an ad, either you post what is done or you don't post anything hoping for naive takers who won't know what to ask or where to look. Only people hiding things leave it out.

2. Tests don't guarantee, but if you test and things go bad, you did your job. If you don't test, then it's on you. Bottom line.

3. You really may want, as a breeder, to learn more about CHD. A FAIR DOG is no more likely to throw a puppy with CHD than an excellent. Period. In fact, the entire litter of each parent is far more predictive than the individual parent. According to OFA, a dog with a fair rating is LESS likely to produce CHD if their littermates had less than 25 percent chd than an EXCELLENT who has more than 25 percent CHD.

So when I look at a pup, I look at all the sire/dam litter mates. It is why I require puppy owners, even of pets, to do OFA. As a breeder, I need that information for my program. People who say "we don't have xyz" in our line, but really only test very few are blowing smoke. (Rottweilers btw, not basenji)

And while Basenji's are low, with 3.2 abnormal, only 2252 have ever been tested! I can't tell you the breeds who declare "not a problem" and then with routine testing found it was triple the early stats.

Behind in Fanconi testing on dogs you are breeding? If so, well… passing it back to the Basenji breeders.

[Patty M]

Wow! Rose Marie, I must give you credit for stirring up the forum! I haven't been around this forum for years and years, so I don' know the history behind the African heritage… and truthfully, I don't think the controversy is worth re-hashing. If I'm that intersted, I can look up old posts.

I hope you can either post some pictures, or email them to me, so I can see your babies.

(Debbie, this better make you laugh, sister.... for this one is for someone who shares my sense of humor. In a whispering voice,
Rose Marie, if you want to get your dogs listed under the "Rescue and New Homes Wanted" topic, post them on your local Craig's List and I'll do it for you tomorrow.
BAAAHAAA HAAA! Again, that is a joke, to lighten up the tension here, my rooing friends! :);))

Patty

[DebraDownSouth]

LOL Patty, don't call me Debbie, lol.

Actually the African project isn't related to this board but to the breed. You really should read up, it is incredible.

[lvoss]

@rmholt:

It is very very difficult for a dog to get into the AKC without the owner applying for consideration and so far no one has completed the process. We have time. We arent in a big hurry. Sorry.

This is a very misleading statement. The only process for getting a Native Stock dog accepted is by following the process that BCOA has gotten approved by AKC. Also, there are several Native Stock dogs that have completed the process just none from the Benin region. That is not the same as "no one has completed the process". There are also time constraints since the studbook will only be open for 5 years, the maximum length of time AKC would approve.

[Heinz57]

I feel lost. You chose to breed basenjis that are not recognized by the AKC and/or bred the dogs for a project to introduce more genetic diversity? Have they been tested for fanconi? It smells somewhat fishy that you aren't divulging their health info.

[sharronhurlbut]

Doing rescue, my concern is that folks are buying dogs they think are "basenjis" and in fact they are have not been approved for this breed.
Rose Marie, you are breeding african village dogs. You might breed them with basenjis, but then they are mixes. No matter what you decide to call these dogs, they are not approved by any BCOA board, and are NOT basenjis. If you decided to breed and sell african village dogs, then NO one could take issue with you..because your calling these puppies what they are. Why do you need to do this??

[rmholt]

@sharronhurlbut:

Doing rescue, my concern is that folks are buying dogs they think are "basenjis" and in fact they are have not been approved for this breed.
Rose Marie, you are breeding african village dogs. You might breed them with basenjis, but then they are mixes. No matter what you decide to call these dogs, they are not approved by any BCOA board, and are NOT basenjis. If you decided to breed and sell african village dogs, then NO one could take issue with you..because your calling these puppies what they are. Why do you need to do this??

First, If my dogs are African Village dogs so is yours. You dont have any room to speak here.

Second, I am tired of repeating myself, but here goes:

Apollo is UKC. Others have been approved by the UKC and registration is pending getting my act together.

Third, what should I call them in the ads? The ads have specific categories. If I wanted an African basenji, registered or not, I would look under Basenji. And I would be interested in them if I didnt already have them

Fourth, are you saying that all AKC nonregistered basenjis arent basenjis?

Fifth, and MOST important, my BUYERS know EVERYTHING about their purchase. No one else needs to at this time. If I thought for one minute they would listen, i would tell everyone, but as my having to repeat and repeat this stuff, it doesnt matter how often I say it. so I stopped.

[rmholt]

@Patty:

Wow! Rose Marie, I must give you credit for stirring up the forum! I haven't been around this forum for years and years, so I don' know the history behind the African heritage… and truthfully, I don't think the controversy is worth re-hashing. If I'm that intersted, I can look up old posts.

I hope you can either post some pictures, or email them to me, so I can see your babies.

(Debbie, this better make you laugh, sister.... for this one is for someone who shares my sense of humor. In a whispering voice,
Rose Marie, if you want to get your dogs listed under the "Rescue and New Homes Wanted" topic, post them on your local Craig's List and I'll do it for you tomorrow.
BAAAHAAA HAAA! Again, that is a joke, to lighten up the tension here, my rooing friends! :);))

Patty

He he this is wny I am usually a mere spectator or nonentity here. Sadly, no one has come up with a new idea on this for 4 years.

I guess I could get a big raincoat with pockets and hang out in Times Square.

Marie

[rmholt]

@DebraDownSouth:

I wasn't going to wade in, but wtheck.

1. My experience is if you post an ad, either you post what is done or you don't post anything hoping for naive takers who won't know what to ask or where to look. Only people hiding things leave it out.

Nobody who gets a dog has any secrets held back

2. Tests don't guarantee, but if you test and things go bad, you did your job. If you don't test, then it's on you. Bottom line.

3. You really may want, as a breeder, to learn more about CHD.

I dont know what else you want me to learn since you dont know what I know.

I sure dont want to hear excuses about CHD.

So when I look at a pup, I look at all the sire/dam litter mates. It is why I require puppy owners, even of pets, to do OFA.

As part of teh Avuvi project the pups get OFA on my dime

And while Basenji's are low, with 3.2 abnormal, only 2252 have ever been tested! I can't tell you the breeds who declare "not a problem" and then with routine testing found it was triple the early stats.

Behind in Fanconi testing on dogs you are breeding? If so, well… passing it back to the Basenji breeders.

Yeah I am. I know of highly regarded breeders who were a breeding season behind, not bc they got laid off and had a million things to do and had to scramble or bc they had oops litters but bc they didnt bother to look at the years of education that went on before the test was available. I made a mistake. NONE of the original Avongaras or Avuvis had alleles so I made a bet. THEN Congo dogs came home with it and I pushed it way up in priority.

I did not willfully ignore the knowledge that was out there. You wouldnt DARE call this other breeder irresponsible but I know more than one pet breeder who was MORE responsible.

[rmholt]

@lvoss:

This is a very misleading statement. The only process for getting a Native Stock dog accepted is by following the process that BCOA has gotten approved by AKC. Also, there are several Native Stock dogs that have completed the process just none from the Benin region. That is not the same as "no one has completed the process". There are also time constraints since the studbook will only be open for 5 years, the maximum length of time AKC would approve.

Are you serious?? or just been hit on the head? YOU arent submitting dogs so what so you know about how people go about submitting dogs? And we WERE talking about Avuvis, so dont change the subject and pretend I am ignoring the accepted dogs.

Where does it say that we have to do this the minute the dogs hit the ground? I am not going to speak for the others, but I have a life to live which is rather busy at this time. And why should I even get them in? I am 55 years old. I have what I want in dogs. Yes I want to help the AKC dogs but if people like you dog on me because I havent done it yet, when there is plenty of time and plenty of other AFricans, and the ability to go back and register their pus after registration, that's just ignorant. Thankfully for my view of people, some are being hepful. You on the other hand tried to tell me I couldnt get my dogs in the UKC which was a filthy lie.

[rmholt]

BCOA wasnt interested in publishing a summary of mine of what is known about DLA in dogs. Unless they took this idea and are running with it and didnt tell me. They ran it by someone else who said something like "cool, what is this" and it died there.

I hope BCOA gets on the ball with this via someone if not me before it is too late.

If we dont look into it, we dont KNOW if it is statistically significant. There is a way to test the breed as a whole or people can test their own dogs. Right now I am at the observation stage where I look at a severely inbred dog and say holy cow no wonder she had hypothyroid and no wonder no one else in the reverse or nonreverse pedigree does.

[rmholt]

@Heinz57:

I feel lost. You chose to breed basenjis that are not recognized by the AKC and/or bred the dogs for a project to introduce more genetic diversity? Have they been tested for fanconi? It smells somewhat fishy that you aren't divulging their health info.

If you are interested in a pup all your questions will be answered.

I have already given a treatise to someone who WASNT serious and it was a waste of my time.

Marie

[rmholt]

Anyone who is interested in a pup can contact me. Anyone seriously interested in my dogs and their decrepit health and lousy type and questionable heritage can also contact me privately.

I thought Id give the forum another try. So that's done.

Ta.

Marie