Does this breeder sound reputable?

[Quercus]

@sharronhurlbut:

Amdrea. Are you talking about the adopters for BRAT saying they would get the test, before they get the dog? I am not clear what your asking

Yes, I was wondering if the person who is interested in adopting the dog offers to pay to get the dog screened for the Fanconi marker, prior to adopting it…would that be allowed?

[westcoastflea1]

no
every family with children under 12 should not be disqualified from having a dog, i just dont think basenjis are the best breed for a family with small children who believe their dog should tolerate whatever the little angels decide to dish out.

let those families go to a breeder who specializes in a line of brain dead labs you know the kind of dog that makes a good designer area rug for the home, big, furry, and loveable who will happily accept whatever little junior dishes out.
thank god most basenjis wont put up with that kind of behavior, must be why i like them so much

i personally cant see any basenji tolerating a child who mauls them, whether it is a 3 month old puppy from the best breeder on the planet or a dog from a rescue organization

of course there are exceptions to every rule, but seriously, how many breeders can predict that a 3 month old basenji pup will tolerate whatever abuse might be handed out by the children in the family its being sent to ?

many dogs that are in rescue have a history, a real live history, not just 3 months with a breeder who may have mom dad and grandparents, who knows the background of the puppy but CANNOT know with absolute certainty how that puppy will react to the stressors in its environment in the years to come

alot of dogs in rescue do have a known history, for example " this dog is being given up because little johnny tormented the dog causing the dog to growl and snap at little johnny and rather then punish little johnny we are giving up the dog, so brat lists that dog as needing to go to home without small children.

does that mean that a rescue dog being listed as going to a home with children over the age of 12 has something wrong with it that a puppy from a breeder wouldnt have?

no!
it means the dog has a HISTORY that a 3 month old puppy CANT have
if you put ten 3 month old puppies from reputable breeders into a situation where little johnny abuses the pups for a couple of years how many of those pups would end up being placed by brat in homes without small children ? (assuming of course that the families didnt contact the breeder to return the vicious dog)

so there are of course exceptions to every rule and im sure someone here has a basenji who loves being mauled by little kids.

to sum it up i dont think it is entirely a question of breeder pup vs rescue dog fitting into a family with little kids, i think its more the idea of will this family teach its children to show their BASENJI pup the respect it expects and deserves? and in the case of many rescue dogs the answer to that important question was no, and now that basenji needs to go to a home without small children.

because brat asks for adopters with children over 12 to adopt these dogs many of them will get a second chance to live in a family that does show them that respect, better late then never i suppose

so i hope i havent offended anyone with my opinions, getting a pup from a good breeder is a great thing and if it is the route you choose to take thats wonderful, but to lump all rescues into the category of being unreliable dogs for families simply because they are rescues and not a pup from a breeder just doesnt seem right.

i asked that sebastian be listed as going to homes with kids over 12 because i feel he would be happier in an environment where he didnt have to tolerate little rug rats bothering him not because there is anything wrong with him.

[DebraDownSouth]

Neither a breeder or rescue should place with a family who are idiots about controlling and training their children. No dog should put up with abuse.

Many rescues have "adults only or no children under 12" not because they are known to be an issue but because the rescue doesn't KNOW. It is one thing I think many rescues fail at… making sure foster homes can expose to children or have evaluated with them.

But it is one thing all should do... evaluate the FAMILY, especially the children, with dogs. If a parent can't control their child, it is not a good placement imho. Ever.

I do think the fanconi option is a good one...i.e. offer adopters the opportunity to pay for the test.

[lvoss]

@westcoastflea1:

no
every family with children under 12 should not be disqualified from having a dog, i just dont think basenjis are the best breed for a family with small children who believe their dog should tolerate whatever the little angels decide to dish out.

This is an incredibly rude statement about families. This and the rest of your post implies that all children under 12 years of age are animal tormentors and that somehow 12 years old is a magical age where they suddenly become angels with dogs. 12 years is an arbitrary cut off that really says nothing about the actual suitability of the children to be around a dog.

Screening of homes is very important for rescues and responsible breeders. Quite honestly any family who has kids that are going to tease and torment a dog shouldn't have one of any breed, period. There are a whole lot of families out there with young children that will make excellent homes for dogs of many breeds including basenjis. I have screened some awesome families that are looking to add a basenji and have young children. I have also screened homes with teenagers that should never own a dog.

I understand why rescue labels dogs as not good with small children but young puppies that are socialized into a family with young children often do well especially when they were selected by the breeder to have a temperament that matches that family. Breeders can tell an awful lot about a puppy by 3 months old and can really help to match the puppy to the family. A wrong placement of any sort can wreck a wonderful dog but careful screening and long term communication with homes are key to having successful placements.

[westcoastflea1]

i agree wholeheartedly with trying to evaluate the kids in the family
thats critical unfortunately its not fail safe

when it comes down to kids or the dog its always the dog that loses
and when a dog has already lost once seems like a good idea to try to even the odds in the dogs favor as much as possible doesnt it?

id like to know how you would recommend evaluating a rescue with children??
since im fostering it would be good to know wouldnt it?

sebastian has been approached by children at different times in public he treats them the same way he treats adults but i have no idea what he would do if anyone mistreated him whether they were child or an adult, i suspect he would try to defend himself by growling snarling or snapping .

since rescues are made up of volunteers i would suspect that there are some (like me ) who do not have the experience you do when it comes to evaluating dogs so perhaps the rescues feel it is better to be safe then sorry when it comes to placing rescue dogs.
so please if it is not too much trouble if you could give me some advice on evaluating a foster with children that would be wonderful
thanks

[lvoss]

@westcoastflea1:

since rescues are made up of volunteers i would suspect that there are some (like me ) who do not have the experience you do when it comes to evaluating dogs so perhaps the rescues feel it is better to be safe then sorry when it comes to placing rescue dogs.
so please if it is not too much trouble if you could give me some advice on evaluating a foster with children that would be wonderful
thanks

Considering the issues you have posted about his health, I think you have made a very good call for Sebastian that he would do better in a home with older children or perhaps even and adult only home. Not because children are likely to mistreat him but because when he is in pain he likely not going to want to bothered and young children have a hard time understanding that.

Sarah Kalnajs has two great videos for anyone who works with dogs. The Language of Dogs which just gives great video clips are all sorts of dog language and Am I Safe? which is geared more to shelter workers and rescue volunteers for evaluating dogs.

[westcoastflea1]

im not going to even start to try to point out the way in which my post was deliberately?? misunderstood

the point of my post was this
small children at times do not realize that "loving or mauling the dog" is not really something the dog enjoys, when a child is small it can take a huge amount of effort and time to teach the child the right way to treat the family dog, and the kids behavior does not constitute "abuse" in the eyes of many people
many families have parents that work full time and they are not home to supervise their children or their dog and as long as the dog does not object in such a way as to call attention to the situation the parents do nothing to stop it, iam of course not talking about torture for gods sake but things like dressing up the dog, dragging the dog around like a baby doll, running and falling on the dog when it is sleeping on the floor things that many people feel is normal and fine when it comes to kids interacting with the family dog, they feel the dog is there to entertain the kids. all kids need a dog right? so it better be good natured about the way the kids treat it
and many dogs go along with this, some even seem to enjoy it.

but for the dog that doesnt enjoy it and snaps or growls at the kids?
the kids dont get taken away its the dog that pays the price for the kids actions

i personally dont think that basenjis as a breed are as accepting of this type of behavior as some other types of dogs

having said this im sure there are some basenjis that do accept this behavior just as there are families that actually dont allow this kind of behavior, just as there are adults who treat their dogs badly and teenagers that are worse then small children, and families that make great adopters for basenji puppies, and breeders that can match puppies with families, there is no absolute about any of this so once again THE POINT i was trying to make was this:

i dont believe that basenjis as a breed are as accepting of the kinds of disrespectful behaviors small children are prone to exhibiting as other types of dogs might be

[lvoss]

@westcoastflea1:

the point of my post was this
small children at times do not realize that "loving or mauling the dog" is not really something the dog enjoys, when a child is small it can take a huge amount of effort and time to teach the child the right way to treat the family dog, and the kids behavior does not constitute "abuse" in the eyes of many people many families have parents that work full time and they are not home to supervise their children or their dog and as long as the dog does not object in such a way as to call attention to the situation the parents do nothing to stop it, iam of course not talking about torture for gods sake but things like dressing up the dog, dragging the dog around like a baby doll, running and falling on the dog when it is sleeping on the floor things that many people feel is normal and fine when it comes to kids interacting with the family dog, they feel the dog is there to entertain the kids. all kids need a dog right? so it better be good natured about the way the kids treat it
and many dogs go along with this, some even seem to enjoy it.

In my experience, the types of families you are describing are not the normal families looking for dogs and especially not the types of families I come across that are even considering a basenji. Most families that I see looking for a dog really want to do right by their dog and many will follow through if good recommendations for trainers and training are made and how to tips to manage a kid/dog household that work. Most of the misconceptions I run into come from the way they were raised around dogs but many are willing to consider a differing view on dog raising when they are able to see that it works. At the shelter we often demonstrate the training that we are doing with the dog when a perspective adopter is talking with us so they can see what the dog can do.

Obviously, any dog is going to be set up for failure in a household where there is a lack of supervision and kids are allowed to do whatever they please. In households where there is parental supervision and a commitment to responsible ownership, dogs thrive, including basenjis.

I understand what you are trying to say but I disagree with the broad generalizations about both families and the breed. I don't think they do either justice.

I also think that ALL dog owners, irregardless of breed, would be doing their dog a huge favor by playing games like "Grab Me, Feed Me" and "Baby Bird" so that their dogs are classically conditioned to associate touch, even occassional rough touching, and hands moving towards their heads with "good things are about to happen", like a really yummy treat being popped in my mouth.

[khanis]

Perhaps I should make a point NOT to post pictures of my BASENJIS dressed up in the clothes I buy for them.

Perhaps I should… then people could see how much I torture my poor Basenjis.. dressing them up... teaching them to walk like a wheelbarrow... making them dance/boogie...
sounds like pure torture... so much so that they still seem to be fabulous companions and wonderful specimens of the breed...

I do agree with Lisa... the folks you speak of are NOT the kind I have ever run into looking for a Basenji.. maybe I don't breed enough since I haven't met those folks... through my pups, adults, or rescue.

[nomrbddgs]

I don't think that these dogs CAN'T be good with children. As has been said, it depends on how the parents raise the child. I have 2 1/2 year old grandchild who came back to live with us. And I must say, for dogs that were not exposed to children on a regular bases, mine have done wonderfully, because my daughter taught her son the boundaries. It doesn't take much to say, No, I don't think so, you are not treating the dog that way and redirect. I also have a friend who had a child after she had her B's and he has also done great with them. So, it can be done, quite easily. People have to remember there are always consequences to your actions, even for children.

[Quercus]

Everybody is making really good points here. I think it may be overreaching to consider normal child activity as abusive. Basenjis (in general) ARE a little less tolerant of normal childhood shenanigas (sp?) than lots of other breeds (in general). But that doesn't mean they are (in general) not appropriate for families. A basenji with good temperament AND good social skills may object to being accidentally fallen on, but will not do any actual damage….where a lab may not notice being fallen on.

Most families who are interested in investing time, money and love in a dog are not going to let their children be abusive the family pet. But kids do run, they do trip, they do throw balls, they do accidentally sit on a basenji under a blanket (ask Querk!), they do run around with food, and drop food, and try to pick it back up. There are lots of possibilities for bad dog behavior that have nothing to do with bad child behavior. So let's not exclusively blame kids.

In the brutally honest picture of it...dogs are dogs.....and they should be viewed and treated and respected as that. Parents are responsible, bound by love, genes, social pressure and LAW to keep their children safe. And if a dog is going to bite a child in the normal course of everyday life...then yes, the dog will lose.

IMO, if there is any doubt that a dog might not be okay with young kids, then the safest option is to not place with children. But, there is a HUGE difference between 5 and 12...and a lot of dogs would be fine with seven year olds that would hate living with two year olds...kwim?

I guess what I am trying to say, is that every dog in every situation is unique. I don't know if it benefits anyone to say 'Basenjis aren't appropriate for families with small children'

[lvoss]

Very well said Andrea. And as for your list of things that might happen living with a family, well, I think my husband has done well over half the things on the list. I know I have done a few.

[YodelDogs]

@westcoastflea1:

they feel the dog is there to entertain the kids. all kids need a dog right? so it better be good natured about the way the kids treat it
and many dogs go along with this, some even seem to enjoy it.

but for the dog that doesnt enjoy it and snaps or growls at the kids?
the kids dont get taken away its the dog that pays the price for the kids actions

I'm going to stick out my neck here.

I live in the southern US and I frequent a forum that is used by hunters in this area. The attitude of many of these "old school" hunters is exactly what westcoastflea wrote above. The men have their hunting dogs and they get a dog for the kids. The kids' dog is to keep the kids entertained and it is expected to accept anything the kids do to it, period. If the dog so much as growls at the kids, lord help it. The dog will get "whooped" or the family will "get rid of" it. The rare man will shoot the dog. Yes, shoot the dog. This type of attitude is gradually being reduced thanks to the calm education of members on the forum but it does still exist.

It isn't just hunters who have that kind of attitude though. I have run into many pet owners over the years who feel the same way. Well, minus the shooting. They really do expect dogs to tolerate anything.

[Quercus]

@YodelDogs:

I'm going to stick out my neck here.

I live in the southern US and I frequent a forum that is used by hunters in this area. The attitude of many of these "old school" hunters is exactly what westcoastflea wrote above. The men have their hunting dogs and they get a dog for the kids. The kids' dog is to keep the kids entertained and it is expected to accept anything the kids do to it, period. If the dog so much as growls at the kids, lord help it. The dog will get "whooped" or the family will "get rid of" it. The rare man will shoot the dog. Yes, shoot the dog. This type of attitude is gradually being reduced thanks to the calm education of members on the forum but it does still exist.

It isn't just hunters who have that kind of attitude though. I have run into many pet owners over the years who feel the same way. Well, minus the shooting. They really do expect dogs to tolerate anything.

Of course, there ARE people out there like that. In fact, I know an educated woman who had a family pet euthanized after her toddler tripped over it, and it snapped at him…not bit...growled/air snapped. She had the elderly dog euthanized THAT day.

Do I blame the dog? Certainly NOT...Do I blame the kid? Not at all...I blame the mom for having unrealistic expectations of the dog. Dogs used to be treated like dogs, there wasn't a bunch of unrealistic expectations of their behavior. If a kid teased a dog, and got bitten the parents chalked it up to a life lesson. Not every puppy owner thought their dog was going to grow into Cujo because it play bit their hands. Ugh, I could go on and on about how this is just one symptom of something wrong in our culture, but I will stop now

[westcoastflea1]

Quercus Basenjis

thank you very much you seem to have gotten the point of what i was saying especially this sentence "A basenji with good temperament AND good social skills may object to being accidentally fallen on, but will not do any actual damage….where a lab may not notice being fallen on".
AND so my point all along has been exactly that, where the lab will accept it the basenji might growl or snap and for many normal everyday families this is enough to suggest to them that the dog is a danger to the children and the basenji has to go
and AGAIN my point has NOT been that children are abusive or torturers or that we should blame them for their behavior, but that their everyday childish behaviors when seen through the eyes of the basenji might very well be considered abusive and the basenji will react accordingly, so why put the basenji in that position to begin with?
to me this discussion is along the same lines as placing a 2 pound chihauhua in a home with toddlers in it, sure you could say that many homes would be great the parents would teach the toddler etc etc etc but IN GENERAL it wouldnt be a good idea would it?
this is a rather extreme example but i hope it gets my point across?
so while i dont think there can be an absolute when it comes to any breed i still dont believe that basenjis IN GENERAL are AS GOOD as other breeds when it comes to dealing with the disrespectful, (meaning normal childish behavior) of children and many ignorant adults
BUT would we really want them to be?

i absolutely agree with everything else you said as well

[westcoastflea1]

hey robyn my family was from down south and you are absolutely correct
unfortunately even here in the north the attitude while not as extreme is still alive and well
take the family with 2 doctors mom and dad
highly educated in the million dollar home with the designer pup
mom and dad work 5 days a week 8 to 6 and have a nanny to watch 3 little kids
how much education or time do you think they put into teaching their kids how to respect the family dog? mom comes home exhausted throws frozen food on the table and calls it good, and if the dog keeps the kids entertained while she is doing so well thats even better isnt it?
so lets not look to closely at EXACTLY what it is that is keeping the kids so amused, because after all its just a dog right?

these families (and there are more of them then the other types of families) have a dog cause they have kids and all kids should have a dog and should that dog not tolerate the childrens normal childish behavior its gone, and yes ive seen the kids fall on the dog, dress it up in clothing and drag it around the house like a large doll,
is that wrong? no not if you are an adult basenji owner who knows how to read her dogs cues as to whether they enjoy something or not, but for 3 little kids to do so when they do not have what it takes to judge whether the dog is tolerating it or actually enjoys it is another thing altogether.
so whle this behavior may not be considered abuse i do believe it shows an extreme lack of respect for that particular animal, and should not be allowed, i wouldnt expect most basenjis to tolerate it as well as some other breeds might.
these families are not a minority and most of these families i dont believe should own a basenji, hence my statement that basenjis are not the best breed for families with small children

[westcoastflea1]

and again quercus you are absolutely correct

if you took 20 basenjis, normal basenjis, not hand raised from a breeder who specifically socialized them to put up with these kinds of behaviors and had a toddler fall over them while they were sleeping how many would growl or snap at the air?

and in the same situation if you took 20 brain dead yellow labs or any other breed that has been tinkered with to produce "dogs that are good with children" and ran the same test how many would snap and growl?
my bet would be that more basenjis by quite a few would snap or growl as compared to the yellow labs
and so how many would end up in rescue as needing homes for children over the age of 12 as compared to the labs?

[westcoastflea1]

and in case anyone is wondering at this point if westcoastflea has a life??

welp, the answer is a resounding NO i do not have a life

im home with sebastian 24/7 because between the howling when i leave the house which means i cant leave the house and now the back issues that mean he cant go for walks, or go to the dog park where we used to spend hours every day so that i COULD get out of the house at least for a little while, i can safely say "I HAVE NO LIFE", absolutely none for at least a month
so look forward to talking to yall for another few weeks

[nomrbddgs]

@westcoastflea1:

and in case anyone is wondering at this point if westcoastflea has a life??

welp, the answer is a resounding NO i do not have a life
QUOTE]

I have to laugh, sorry! LOL Sometimes, yes we all feel that way (at times only) Do you feel a little disturbed yet?? Sorry again, I have a strange sense of humor. Nice to have you around though.

But that is exactly what I mean when I say a child is a child and a dog is a dog. Dogs do not reason, they react. Children don't think-they act.

That's all. It's up to the parent to parent the child in a way that shows the child the consequences of it's actions. If you fall on a dog, you might get bit, but it's your own dang fault for not watching what you were doing.

[Quercus]

@westcoastflea1:

and again quercus you are absolutely correct

if you took 20 basenjis, normal basenjis, not hand raised from a breeder who specifically socialized them to put up with these kinds of behaviors and had a toddler fall over them while they were sleeping how many would growl or snap at the air?

and in the same situation if you took 20 brain dead yellow labs or any other breed that has been tinkered with to produce "dogs that are good with children" and ran the same test how many would snap and growl?
my bet would be that more basenjis by quite a few would snap or growl as compared to the yellow labs
and so how many would end up in rescue as needing homes for children over the age of 12 as compared to the labs?

I am not sure who is arguing on what side of the argument anymore I do know from experience and observation that Basenjis (and other dogs)that are raised from puppyhood around young children are usually bomb-proof. And I think that might have been the original point of this thread?? I am sure that there are dogs in rescue that may be great around kids….but as you said, if you don't know for sure, why risk it?

My main objection to your reasoning is that there is a HUGE...vast even....difference between toddlers and twelve year-olds. A dog that would not be suitable for a family with a three year old, may be perfect for a family with a seven and ten year old. And I disagree that the majority of families interested in having a family dog are running amok. Between interacting with hundreds of families through my dog training business, and probably that many within my circle of friends and aquaintances....I can think of very few that have a dog who is being subjected to child torture