@b5004ever - Black muzzle is not uncommon in Basenjis, it is referred to as "masking". It fades as the pup ages. Usually found in bloodlines that carry the "Tri" gene. That said, look closely at the heads on those dogs. Compare to the heads found on the illustrated standard at www.basenji.org (https://www.basenjihe.org/BasenjiU/Judge/Study/Illustrated-Standard-2012.pdf). There are some unanswered questions if a sire was used that was known to come from a person in the West that crossed Basenjis with Fox Terriers
Breeder not doing Fanconi testing?? Do I just walk away?
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Interesting. The 'reputable' breeder being discussed is from Alberta, Twin Peaks is from Alberta and Twin Peaks is justifying irresponsible (IMO) breeding pactices. Any bets these folks are one and the same?
I don't think this is the same person, only because there is another thread that is about finding a breeder and "Twin Peaks" says that he/she purchased from the reputable breeders.. but I could be all wrong on that.
Bottom line is that if you don't test, you don't know. You can pull that blanket over your head all you want and discount testing for whatever reasons and/or excuses… but you can never as a responsible breeder claim that you have done your very best for the breed if you do not test. And take that into account with temperament/conformation
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I don't want to enter into this discussion as it's all been said before in other posts.
However, Twin Peaks - I am an ex-breeder who has not had any incidence of
Fanconi in my line in which most of the dogs are personally known to me (apart from a dog I used who goes back to an overseas line - long defunct I believe).
But a bitch from my last litter tested as a Fanconi carrier (since I've tested Father clear, Grandmother Carrier - mother was deceased) so obviously I had been lucky all those years that I must have always had carrier/clears). So no breeder can say that as they've not had fanconi, they don't need to test!Another factor is that it is a mutant gene and so theoretically could turn up at any time.
The other thing - someone (?MacPack) said that humans can have Fanconi too - Dr Gonto confirmed that it is a different disease and not related to Fanconi in dogs.
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I can't understand the attitude. can selling basenji puppies really be a business? I mean, it's not like they are the most popular dogs in the world. I would assume that most breeders run the risk of not finding owners for their puppies if they breed. I know that would be a concern here in the DR, just not that many people want a Basenji, and those that do, most of them I would give a basenji to, because they really only want them cause they are cute, don't really know anything about them, you know, so I would imagine breeders to be more than willing to do all the testing and have a nice open attitude to a possible buyer, and even more if you have that many puppies available
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Interesting. The 'reputable' breeder being discussed is from Alberta, Twin Peaks is from Alberta and Twin Peaks is justifying irresponsible (IMO) breeding pactices. Any bets these folks are one and the same?
LOL claims bought from REPUTABLE breeder elsewhere, but ahem.. not so much:
TwinPeaks
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: albertaHello Brianne,
There are no breeders closer to Edmonton than Shamaron Basenjis. I would like you to know that over 14 years I have had 3 basenjis from Shamaron basenjis. All the dogs turned out to have fabulous temperments and lovely confirmation.tanza
With just a bit of research, the sire of the litter they have on their website shows that the sire or dam is not tested and comes from a Fanconi line on the bottom side through Changa Gala Celebration, with not only Fanconi but PRA eye problems in his offspring. Now, I can't say anything about the Dam of the litter, as I don't find the pedigree on Sally's pedigree site, but this kennel has produced a Fanconi Affected in Shamaron's Kofi Utundu and they have breed to lines with much known Fanconi.
Pat Fragassi
And if anyone finds ANY mention of Fanconi testing on their web site http://www.shamaronbasenjis.com/on_puppies.html let me know where I missed it.
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To be fair, a lot of the threads here on finding a responsible breeder (which to me is different from "reputable" breeder) emphasize exactly that Fanconi testing is the minimum consideration, and that there are, as you say, many factors to consider.
But minimum doesn't mean "least important." To me, there is no reason that a breeder should not want to test her Basenjis unless she is hiding something, blissfully ignorant, or self-righteously sticking to some personal code to the detriment of the long-term health of her line and the breed. I don't really care to hear how the breeder spins her reasons for not testing, when I can just find another breeder that DOES test.
I tested my spayed, pet-only B for peace of mind and am fully aware that there is a 2% margin of error and that this is a linkage test. I'll deal with that. It was a completely non-invasive procedure and cost $65 + postage. It was no trouble for me. Why should it trouble any breeder, who should be held to higher standards?
So good it needs to be said again!
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Wow, folks, I didn't mean to stir up such controversy!
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Wow, folks, I didn't mean to stir up such controversy!
You didn't….if you go and search other threads about responsible/reputable breeders you will see many of the same comments. It is important especially for new folks that they understand what is or is not a responsible/reputable breeder.
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A long time reputable breeder will know if there is fanconi in their line. And can determine from which sires this may have come from. There are ways to know the potential for risk of fanconi.
That's a bunch of BS if I ever heard! As Pat states, if the Fanconi gene is recessive, which all indications are that it is, then it can take multiple generations to show. You cannot state with any depth of certainty, by pedigree alone, that any dog does not have the gene. While the test is not perfect, as I have already stated, it should be used in conjuction with the test. And if it is the same breeder that I know off fanconi has been produced, it's just been well hidden. There is no way to know 100% that any dog carries the gene, but at least you can use all the resources that can be applied. And what's with the not testing for eyes?? That's a $40 test-and that isn't done, at all?? Why not?? I've learned things about my dogs eyes that while not perfect, certainly give me information that I like to know.
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I first discovered this forum back in August while doing my research on the Basenji Breed and thought it would be a good place to read about other Basenji owners stories and training tips, this is what it states in the rules for the forum, much to my surprise it turned out to be more like a soap box for particular individuals ? and you know who you are!
I wasn?t going to give these vultures another soap box to air their unfounded slander and opinions but feel I need to respond to the accusations made about a particular breeder in Alberta, why, because it?s slanderous and borderline defamation of character.
My questions to you all are, have you ever met this breeder? Have you ever seen the dogs? I know you haven?t, furthermore, what are your motives for this slander? I have been in communication with this breeder for some time now, have met with the breeder and the dogs and these dogs are beautiful examples of a true Basenji. I have done extensive research OF MY OWN and can attest to the temperament, conformation and beauty of these dogs. On a visit I even got kisses and according to my research that is not typical of a Basenji when it comes to strangers. This breeder?s dogs are beautiful, social, sweet and wonderful dogs.
The breeder you vultures claim not be reputable is simply untrue, this breeder has been breeding for over 20 years with extensive knowledge of this breed, with champion lines and loves these dogs and this breed and it shows in the concern for proper placement, temperament and socialization of the dogs. These are some of the many reasons why I chose to purchase my little baby boy from this breeder. I have spoken with other breeders as well and did months of research before coming to the decision and I am completely happy and confident in my decision.
I have read other posts in other conversations on this forum and you vultures are argumentative, rude and just plain obnoxious. You make slanderous accusations with no concrete proof, you argue and cut down any opinion that isn?t in agreement with your own, since when is one person?s opinion the end all and be all. There were even other members of this forum that considered leaving because of this attitude.
For those of you interested in this breed, do your OWN research, don?t take the word of some internet posts by individuals that seem bent on forcing their opinions down everyone?s throats, and do like I did and do your research and judge for YOURSELF. I ask that you keep in mind not everything you read on the internet is the truth and others opinions are not the end all and be all, form your own opinion by gathering your OWN knowledge.
As for those of you that like to sling slander, you know who you are, don?t bother responding to this post as I will not respond to your rudeness and give you another opportunity to get on your soap boxes and air your slander, rudeness, ignorance and just plain crap, you obviously have much to much time on your hands!
I am very disappointed in this forum, I thought it would be a good place to correspond with other Basenji owners, too bad, it was a good idea.
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Take a chill pill. If you don't like what you see on here then don't visit the forum. Was your basenji tested for Fanconi syndrome? I noticed you didn't say anything about that.
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Being in the breed for years and breeding champion dogs even ones with great temperaments means absolutely nothing about their health status. If they are not testing then they have no clue about the health status of their line. This is not libelous, slanderous, or defamatory. It is a statement of fact.
Health testing information can be viewed publicly on the OFA database. If they are doing the testing for Fanconi then the results would be there. If they are doing the testing for hips, elbow, patellas, thyroid, etc they would be there if the results were passing or if they allowed non-passing results to be viewed. If they are not testing then they cannot be using health as a major criteria in their breeding program because they are lacking a large piece of the picture to make any sort of educated decision. Even doing all the testing things still pop up but at least there is breadth and depth of pedigree information to make informed decisions about the future of the breeding program.
From a buyer's perspective, knowing the depth and breadth of health information allows you to also make an informed decision before purchasing. There may still be issues but having generations of detailed health information sure helps you to know what to expect.
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Why come on her stating that you are here to "research" and yet your first post is to defend this "breeder"??? You aren't on here for research as you already purchased your puppy as well as the fact that you choose to start off your introduction as a rant! Honestly, you need to look up the definitions of the words you are using; in any breed of animal health testing is the responsible way to go and from the thread starter it was said that this person does not fanconi test or do the other major tests, so based on that evidence everyone recommended AGAINST getting a puppy- if that information is false then of course we would have responded differently- nothing was a personal attack! I find your post quite insulting, wait until your beloved Basenji becomes affected with Fanconi or develops one of the associated health issues of the breed- then maybe you will get it. Anyone who can even defend a breeder NOT health testing is just as bad as that person and not very savvy as to what they should be looking for in a breeder!!! Obviously if superficials are all you care about then great- you can end up with a beautiful dog with a greater possibility of poor health ( why even chance it?)… you think you know best but please excuse me when in a year or two you come to this forum asking for help because I will be the first to check you on it... and feel free to view ALL of my posts on this forum as NONE are mean or rude, this would be the first and it is because I am completely insulted by you, your lack of knowledge, your superficial views on what makes a good dog and your need to post on this forum after you have decided not to be a part of it. As far as us being grouped as obnoxious- well excuse me hunny because if that's the case then you would fit in perfectly! This is a forum where almost everyone knows each other- it is NOT JUST a forum where we are mindless drones taking the word of a mere internet posting, ask any breeder on this forum and they encourage ALL buyers to do extensive research and verification and anyone who knows anything about whats important in buying a basenji won't even bother checking out a breeder who doesn't Fanconi test, hip test, eye test etc... personally, I dont care who your breeder is but if they don't test then it is not a responsible breeder! I say Good riddens to you
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Some folks, who have not loved and lost a dog affected with fanconi, have no idea the horror it can be..if the dog is pill resistant. I did loved and lost a dog like this, so any one who is called a breeder and doesn't test for this, is someone who is giving a family the horror of what I went through. Maybe your dog won't get it, I hope not, but having the test and not using it and breeding, well, IMO, that is something a "breeder" should be sued over. Can you say lemon law??? they have it for cars…
I am sorry to paint "breeders" together, but you all that do this testing know that its the right thing to do. Those that don't..shame on you! -
Sorry but if you dont health test your dogs esp for illnesses that are prevelant in the breed then IMO you are not a responsible breeder, I dont care what breed you are breeding or have been in the year X number of years. The purpose of breeding is to better the breed and it is too easy to breed dogs that have recessive bad genes without knowing. NVM the fact that you cant just breed your dogs, even if you have a large kennel at some point you need to bring in DNA from outside of your lines and unless that breeder is testing there is no way to confirm you arent breeding those bad genes into your lines.
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People stated facts.
Show of hands, who else suspects this new poster is the breeder? LOL.
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DebraDownSouth- funny isn't it- everyone who comes on here to defend this thread is from the same place. You can't see my hands but they're up. haha
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@Northern:
I first discovered this forum back in August while doing my research on the Basenji Breed and thought it would be a good place to read about other Basenji owners stories and training tips, this is what it states in the rules for the forum, much to my surprise it turned out to be more like a soap box for particular individuals ? and you know who you are!
I wasn?t going to give these vultures another soap box to air their unfounded slander and opinions but feel I need to respond to the accusations made about a particular breeder in Alberta, why, because it?s slanderous and borderline defamation of character.
My questions to you all are, have you ever met this breeder? Have you ever seen the dogs? I know you haven?t, furthermore, what are your motives for this slander? I have been in communication with this breeder for some time now, have met with the breeder and the dogs and these dogs are beautiful examples of a true Basenji. I have done extensive research OF MY OWN and can attest to the temperament, conformation and beauty of these dogs. On a visit I even got kisses and according to my research that is not typical of a Basenji when it comes to strangers. This breeder?s dogs are beautiful, social, sweet and wonderful dogs.
The breeder you vultures claim not be reputable is simply untrue, this breeder has been breeding for over 20 years with extensive knowledge of this breed, with champion lines and loves these dogs and this breed and it shows in the concern for proper placement, temperament and socialization of the dogs. These are some of the many reasons why I chose to purchase my little baby boy from this breeder. I have spoken with other breeders as well and did months of research before coming to the decision and I am completely happy and confident in my decision.
I have read other posts in other conversations on this forum and you vultures are argumentative, rude and just plain obnoxious. You make slanderous accusations with no concrete proof, you argue and cut down any opinion that isn?t in agreement with your own, since when is one person?s opinion the end all and be all. There were even other members of this forum that considered leaving because of this attitude.
For those of you interested in this breed, do your OWN research, don?t take the word of some internet posts by individuals that seem bent on forcing their opinions down everyone?s throats, and do like I did and do your research and judge for YOURSELF. I ask that you keep in mind not everything you read on the internet is the truth and others opinions are not the end all and be all, form your own opinion by gathering your OWN knowledge.
As for those of you that like to sling slander, you know who you are, don?t bother responding to this post as I will not respond to your rudeness and give you another opportunity to get on your soap boxes and air your slander, rudeness, ignorance and just plain crap, you obviously have much to much time on your hands!
I am very disappointed in this forum, I thought it would be a good place to correspond with other Basenji owners, too bad, it was a good idea.
It would have been nice to have posted an introduction as your first post!
I don't know the breeder you are talking about so have no comment on that but this thread was about Fanconi Testing. It is the view of the majority of B Breeders worldwide that it is very important to test and hopefully eradicate this dreadful disease in Basenji's. I would not allow anyone to use any of my dogs and would not use a dog not tested for Fanconi. The test isn't the definitive test, we are aware of this but we keep testing using the only means we have. I certainly would never buy or recommend to buy from breeders who haven't tested the parents.
Whether a dog has a lovely temperament or excellent conformation is totally irrelevant if it isn't healthy.
I have been in the breed since 1988 and there are many on this forum who have been in the breed much longer and do know what they are talking about!
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I have another view on this Fanconi testing - and a breeder who elects to not test.
Most people commenting do not understand that the gene has NOT been found. The results of this testing do not indicate fanconi gene because the gene HAS NOT BEEN found!!!!!!!!
Also the program has been haulted. No further work is being done to FIND the GENE should it even exist. Do you people know that OTHER BREEDS can contract Fanconi not only the basenji? Are the other breeders forced to submit to this testing??
Get your facts straight before negatively impacting a Basenji breeder with impecable credentials. The harm you do is irrepairable.I don't have any comment about the Basenji breeder in question, but your statements above about the Fanconi test are not correct.
The area of the gene has been located. The results of this testing do indicate Fanconi gene status as it identifies DNA markers that are strongly correlated to Fanconi syndrome in Basenjis. A DNA linkage marker test, when validated, is a DNA test that indicates that certain DNA patterns known to be close to the gene indicate various carrier states.
An analogy would be if we had three people in my home town - we didn't have the street address, but we know one lives close to the red barn, one near the lake, one near the highway. The gene is between the markers, and different marker patterns indicate different versions (alleles) of the gene.
It's like saying there are three houses between the red barn, the lake, and the highway, and if I have a grey house, it's mine; if it's a brick house, it's Cretia's; and if it has a stable, it's Karen's. The different patterns of DNA markers similarly describe the different versions of the gene.
The research program for Fanconi has not been halted. That statement is absolutely and completely false. Research is ongoing.
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I realized the above post may be a little confusing - essentially what I'm saying is that one marker pattern (red house) may show carrier; another marker pattern (brick house) may be clear; etc.
Marker panels are used when you don't have the gene itself mapped, but you have various landmarks that you know are nearby, bracketing the gene. The research then correlates the markers with various versions of the gene. If you get a very high degree of correlation, you have a test.
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The Canine Health Foundation discussion of the original Fanconi test development is at http://www.akcchf.org/research/funded-research/0801.html
The OFA page on the Fanconi Syndrome test is at http://www.offa.org/dnatesting/fanconi.html
The most recent update on Fanconi to BCOA is referenced at the annual meeting powerpoint at http://www.basenji.org/joomla/images/bcoa2010.pdf - note that it references the 2009 research update, the 2010 research update, and that inconsistent results thus far are 4 out of 1089 carriers, which currently is consistent with a high level of accuracy.
I think that should make it VERY clear that Fanconi research has been continuously ongoing.
The current advice from BCOA to puppy buyers, as given in the Basenji Health Pages on the BCOA web site, is as follows:
"Owners should insist that at least one parent of any puppy they purchase be tested “Probable clear” for Fanconi, unless the pup itself has been individually tested and was not tested “Probable Affected.” While not a guarantee of health, studies to date indicate that dogs with one or both parents tested probable clear are very unlikely to develop the disorder."
That is directly from the health pages on the BCOA web site and does accurately reflect the advice given to BCOA by experts. In fact, the statement above is a close paraphrase of the researchers.
