Good luck with her. Sounds like you are working on things … hopefully she'll come around.
Help please!
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Though any AKC dog with full registration and 2 testicles can be shown, it can become very discouraging very quickly to be last place at every show. Even more so if you have no idea why because you don't have someone helping you to understand dog structure and conformation. And that is what happens when the dog who is the apple in the eye of the owner is not of the same quality as the others in the ring and the novice owner has no one to help them learn the finer points of the standard.
I think two key components to getting new people to stick around is 1. A good quality dog and 2. A good mentor to provide support.
He could be stunning, though Lisa! I have seen more than one dog come from less than an ideal background that finished their championship with novice handlers.
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He could be stunning, though Lisa! I have seen more than one dog come from less than an ideal background that finished their championship with novice handlers.
Which is why he needs to be evaluated by someone or someones who are willing to be honest. And truly honest, meaning if he is stunning dog will say so no matter his background and if he isn't will say so kindly but isn't going to use the dog as point fodder for their own dogs.
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The above is my opinion in general not about anyone specifically. I see many newcomers to shows come with their beloved pet that someone said, "Don't worry, it will be your starter dog. That way you know what you are doing with your next one." They come to a handful of shows and never get that "next one" because they are so discouraged by being out of ribbons or last place or not even having that person who told them to get in the ring with that dog there to help when they do step into the ring.
So I just have to put out there that IMO it is not the best advice to tell beginners to just show whatever dog they have because at least they will get experience because the experience they tend to get is that showing is really disappointing. They don't get tend to get the postive reinforcement of placements or wins or their mentor(s) letting them know they are improving.
All of the above is true….and it will most likely be even more frustrating with a trindle. But showing a dog can be frustrating even with a nice dog, a ton of support, and plenty of money....
I think perserverance, being fiercely interested in the breed, and making friends that you like to hang out with is what keeps most amatures showing dogs. For most of us, it certainly isn't the positive reinforcement of ribbons
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Which is why he needs to be evaluated by someone or someones who are willing to be honest. And truly honest, meaning if he is stunning dog will say so no matter his background and if he isn't will say so kindly but isn't going to use the dog as point fodder for their own dogs.
I agree…but I don't think we should insinuate that someone shouldn't even bother to try to show a dog that isn't from a responsible breeder. Everybody starts somewhere, and I know that you understand that. If someone is interested I think we should foster their interest, and help them decide if showing really interests them.
For others reading...sometimes (most of the time) showing isn't really about winning. People who are involved in conformation are demonstrating a commitment to their breed, its future and its heritage. It is usually where you learn to LOVE the breed, not just your own dogs. You become a student of the breed when you attend local and national specialties, and you make connections and friends that help you become a connoisseur (if you will) of the breed.
We don't really have many people in our area who will treat newbies as point fodder...but, of course, it isn't nearly as hard to find a major here as it is on the West Coast.
I do understand what you are saying
I just don't want to scare people away, who may be awesome additions to our community. -
I don't want to scare people away but this sport is not naturally reinforcing.
To say it isn't all about winning isn't really correct, everyone who steps in the ring with their dog wants to win. So it is about winning. Many of us find other reinforcers to keep us coming back like learning about the breed, seeing friends etc, because the bottom line is only 1 dog and 1 bitch on any given day go home with points so most of us will go home feeling empty handed unless we are also getting something else out of it.
When people don't have mentor that is helping them make those connections with people and be the instructors in the breed they lose those reinforcers. When people start with a dog that is not conformationally a "good" dog they lose out on the reinforcement that winning gives. So then showing really becomes pretty tedious.
I'm not saying this to scare people away. Mentors don't have to be your dog's breeder. Conformationally good dogs come from all sorts of backgrounds. But when these ingredients aren't there, this sport is a pretty cold place. It can get pretty chilly even with them.
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yep to all the above. Which is why I do agility. (okay, i also do a little conformation.) The bar stays up or it doesn't, the dog stays on course, or not. We qualify, or we find out what we need to work on.
Conformation does require a thick skin - you start with it, or you develop it. But sooner or later you realize it is just ONE person's oppinion. IME, there is lots to learn and almost everyone I've met has been helpful and friendly (both in the basenji conformation ring and in the agility ring). Try a few shows and don't decide to quit based on any one show. If it's not for you, try coursing, agility, rally, obedience, tracking, therapy, etc. There a lots of ways to have fun with your pup.
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All of the above is true….and it will most likely be even more frustrating with a trindle. But showing a dog can be frustrating even with a nice dog, a ton of support, and plenty of money....
I've tried the frustration with a nice dog and I've tried it with a ton of support. Could I now try it with plenty of money? :rolleyes:
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I've tried the frustration with a nice dog and I've tried it with a ton of support. Could I now try it with plenty of money? :rolleyes:
Ha, ha! The only time I showed a dog and had plenty of money (two job family, no debt, no kids) the darn dog finished in a few months….the ones that have taken years have been done on a shoestring! And dog showing has gotten ridiculously expensive!! $25 - $30 bucks for entries! It was half that when we started
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I don't want to scare people away but this sport is not naturally reinforcing.
To say it isn't all about winning isn't really correct, everyone who steps in the ring with their dog wants to win. So it is about winning. Many of us find other reinforcers to keep us coming back like learning about the breed, seeing friends etc, because the bottom line is only 1 dog and 1 bitch on any given day go home with points so most of us will go home feeling empty handed unless we are also getting something else out of it.
When people don't have mentor that is helping them make those connections with people and be the instructors in the breed they lose those reinforcers. When people start with a dog that is not conformationally a "good" dog they lose out on the reinforcement that winning gives. So then showing really becomes pretty tedious.
I'm not saying this to scare people away. Mentors don't have to be your dog's breeder. Conformationally good dogs come from all sorts of backgrounds. But when these ingredients aren't there, this sport is a pretty cold place. It can get pretty chilly even with them.
Again, I have to agree with lvoss. When I first started showing, my mentor made me "painfully" aware of my dogs faults… and the good things too.... but more the faults. And honestly, if someone asks me to evaluate their dogs, they will hear the bad things first... In fact, I think that lvoss can attest to that... and I have told people that, sorry I don't think your dog/bitch really makes the grade, but that is my opinion... and they asked.
And as said, at the end of the day, it is just ones person's opinion, however when that opinion becomes the voice of many that is when people lose interest in this sport. When they hear that they lost because of politics in the ring with this person or that person, first they need to understand is their dog of the quality that should be in the ring.
I have lost my share to what might have been an equal dog because another handler was more well know that I, but in the end, if you have a quality dog it all comes out in the wash.. at least again, that is my opinion. Key comment here is "of equal".
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I would love to have someone look at my dog and tell me both the good things and the bad…I am open to criticism, but how can you say that winning is the only thing rewarding about dog showing? Isn't a big part of being in the ring (or doing agility, field trials, lure coursing or whatever) building a stronger relationship between you, your dog and other people who share the same interests? Plus having FUN
Now, don't take me for someone who isn't competitive...trust me, I am and I do understand everyone wanting to win-but that isnt the only motivation for doing this.
I showed dairy cattle professionally for about 10 years...I have shown some of the best cattle in the country and I have stood at the top of the class, the middle, and at the tail end. I think everyone who has ever shown an animal has. But knowing that you are going to stand at the top of every class just isnt reasonable...we buy or breed an animal with an idea of what we have and how they will stack up against what someone else might have, but in the end it is the other 364 days of the year that make going to the show worth it. The blood sweat and tears that come with owning and loving an animal, and the joy of "showing them off" and competing.
Just because I have never shown a dog before doesn't mean that I didn't do my research, or that I didn't buy him from a responsible person. I knew ahead of time that showing a Trindle could be to my disadvantage, but the standard says that a clear definition between colors is okay, something which he has. (If you think showing a trindle could be frustrating, try showing a red and white holtstein in a black and white class )
I understand the ups and downs of being in the show ring...and I started this thread to get any helpful tips anyone might have on what I can do to START learning the process not asking whether or not I should show my dog-because I am going to show him. And if we stand at the "back of the bus" well, then I will try something else or try a different show. But I love my Basenji, am very glad that I found him and would like to meet other Basenji breeders and hopefully own another one someday... -
okay, we couldn't talk you out of it <gg>so you're probably determined and stubborn enough to have a basenji. (I say that with gentle joking.) Here's some good info. Find a local conformation class. Most of these are drop in type things. Sometimes you can do a few private lessons. Try different places if there are several because different people will be able to teach you different things. Ask the teachers about matches, which are not shows for points, but a practice that is run much like a real show.
If your breeder shows, talk to her. Ask which parent your dog favors and ask which judges liked his/her type. Ask the same about older siblings. If she doesn't know (maybe because she doesn't own the stud, older siblings, etc), you can purchase a dog's records from the AKC and I think it will tell you the judges and how that dog did.
There have been trindles that finished. You'll have to do some digging around, but see if you can find out who owned them and ask them about judges' names. Don't assume because if their trindle is at the end of the line that it is just about the color.
You also may want to look into UKC shows. I have several friends that like that venue better than AKC, but it's not something that I"ve done.
good luck!!</gg>
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Of all the events that I participate in conformation showing is the least rewarding. I have made some really great friends who are very supportive at shows but I have also met the biggest jerks. I have had pro handlers who are very much only there for the win throw bait at my dog's feet, squeeze me into a corner so me and my dog look awful, and even try to step my dog. I have had non pro handlers do similar things.
I have found other reasons besides winning to motivate me to send in my entry but I don't kid myself that the reason people go to show is to win.
As for building relationship with my dog I find agility, nosework, and even basic manners more reinforcing for myself and therefore probably for my dogs. Lure coursing is all them, I love watching but I am not part of the equation when they are out there chasing that bag.
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I knew ahead of time that showing a Trindle could be to my disadvantage, but the standard says that a clear definition between colors is okay, something which he has.
That isn't quite the impression that I got when in your second post you wrote
also…my B is a trindle (or Brindle pointed tri) is that considered a fault in the show ring? Or at least, is it frowned upon? Just curious! Thanks again for any help anyone can offer...
And I replied
As for trindle, the basenji standard call for clear demarcation of colors so if its stripes a clear with crisp demarcation then it should not be considered a fault on the other hand if they are blurry with no defined stripes so that the tan looks muddied then it is a fault.
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I would love to have someone look at my dog and tell me both the good things and the bad…I am open to criticism, but how can you say that winning is the only thing rewarding about dog showing? Isn't a big part of being in the ring (or doing agility, field trials, lure coursing or whatever) building a stronger relationship between you, your dog and other people who share the same interests? Plus having FUN
Now, don't take me for someone who isn't competitive...trust me, I am and I do understand everyone wanting to win-but that isnt the only motivation for doing this.
I showed dairy cattle professionally for about 10 years...I have shown some of the best cattle in the country and I have stood at the top of the class, the middle, and at the tail end. I think everyone who has ever shown an animal has. But knowing that you are going to stand at the top of every class just isnt reasonable...we buy or breed an animal with an idea of what we have and how they will stack up against what someone else might have, but in the end it is the other 364 days of the year that make going to the show worth it. The blood sweat and tears that come with owning and loving an animal, and the joy of "showing them off" and competing.
Just because I have never shown a dog before doesn't mean that I didn't do my research, or that I didn't buy him from a responsible person. I knew ahead of time that showing a Trindle could be to my disadvantage, but the standard says that a clear definition between colors is okay, something which he has. (If you think showing a trindle could be frustrating, try showing a red and white holtstein in a black and white class )
I understand the ups and downs of being in the show ring...and I started this thread to get any helpful tips anyone might have on what I can do to START learning the process not asking whether or not I should show my dog-because I am going to show him. And if we stand at the "back of the bus" well, then I will try something else or try a different show. But I love my Basenji, am very glad that I found him and would like to meet other Basenji breeders and hopefully own another one someday...My only comment here would be… Are you sure that you purchased your Basenji from a responsible breeder?.... Honestly.. and without malice... I think maybe not. Sorry to say, but looking at the picture of him.. I could point out many different faults that will not do well in the show ring.. remember that a puppy judged at 8wks is what people/breeders expect to see as a mature dog. Now while I don't know the age in the picture, but I can honestly say, if I were judging, this would not be my choice... Hard to hear, yes/... honest,... yes...
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i'm not trying to make anyone mad here…I was just new to the forum and looking for some helpful advice...
and as for his picture...you are right, but his tail doesn't even curl in the picture, it looks like it is set too low and he is standing with his back legs so far back that his back looks funky and it almost looks like he toes out in addition to the fact that his neck looks really short...maybe there are other things about the picture that you noticed I don't know...but it isn't that great of a picture I will agree... -
Please do not feel you have to apologize or be appeasatory for coming onto this forum and asking questions. A few of us have gone beyond courtesy and straight towards just being plain old mean, IMO*
Mentors are fine but not mandatory. I have been quite successful without any mentors, doing my own thing for the past umpteen years. *
Since you have experience in the competetive world of showing, be it cows, cats or canines you have an advantage many peoeple first starting out do not have. Hook up with other basenji folks, listen and learn but most of all just enjoy the ride and your new addition.
In addition please make sure s/he gets tested for fanconi - the lines you mention your pup coming from have fanconi in their background, be sure to contact Sally Wallis with litter*
info for inclusion on the basenji database.Enjoy, have fun but most of all - never lose the tenacity you have shown in this thread. As you should have learned - it will stead you well for a future within this breed.
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Enjoy whatever sport/event you decide to do with your basenji, don't feel you are limited to just one. As I compete in your part of the country, I can tell you majors are few and far between, most of the dogs in this area are still trying to find that last major after over 2 yrs of trying, they just aren't out there unless you are willing to travel 500 miles every weekend like we do for coursing, and all too often the points go to the professional handlers who bring the bulk of the entry with them. It may take you 75 or more shows to finish your dog, are you prepared for that?
I showed 2 basenjis in the NY area in the early 90s back when majors were 12 -15 entries and it took me 2 yrs to finish my Tornado daughter, Tasha, and that was with Sue Coe and Kim helping to get her last major. Winston I retired after he accumulated 32 singles without ever getting a major, they just were not in our area when I was showing, so we moved on to other event such as obedience and coursing which are a lot more fun. My other boy in the early 80's was a Music City Jazzman kid, a black and white, and I never did get anything on him in TX where the points were also very high for majors, and at that time Black and whites were not a popular color, fortunately now the prejudice seems to have passed, but most judges still do not like a trindle, not much we can do about that.
I am entered in a show this weekend with my extremely nice black whippet bitch, another color judges do not favor, this will be her 71st show and we only have one point, earned at show #65. I held her out all last yr and did coursing and obedience instead, earning titles there, but now that we are considering breeding her next yr, its back to the ring. Be prepared for a long, very expensive, haul if you do not hire a pro, just the reality of the midwest.
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As Agile Basenji stated, find a local conformation class, you can get private lessons but I think that a group class is better for the dog as there's more distractions going on and the ones I've been to have had all the people go over other's dogs so they're used to strangers approaching and touching them.
Get a grooming table if you don't have one already, stack your pup everyday, have friends come up to him and look at his teeth and run their hands over him. Don't forget the testicles….the judge is going to feel them too.
I've only showed one dog so far, and it took me just shy of two years to finish him....but...I did all by myself and there's nothing like it when you get those last points. I had to travel to Az for majors but that was part of the fun. Some people like showing, some like other sports.... you pick the one you want and go for it. All dogs have faults, some more than others, but when you walk into that ring, it's all about the judge and what THEIR opinion is.
You will find it harder with a Trindle as some judges will put you last just because of it, but there are trindles that are Champions...they are Brindle pointed tri's...note the Tri...they fall under that color category.
Go to the shows beforehand and meet some breeders and find one willing to help you. It may turn out that your boy doesn't do well in the show ring, but I give you points for even trying!!!
DO however, get that fanconi test done as Sinjabe suggested. You can still show him, but you will want to get him neutered at some point before he gets too old and you want to know what is in store for you should he test probably affected.
Good Luck!
