He's Arriving On Saturday!

[khanis]

I don't think she said what litter was Kai was from… but these are the dogs the Timmons' have:

Zerah's Little Tex [r/w M, HP089149/01 USA, 3 Feb 2004]
x
Nanny Owens [r/w F, HP127830/05 USA, 20 Nov 2004]

and the second litter was:

WL's Alex
x
Kk Sara Named Me Alix [r/w F, HP057520/01 USA, 10 Jul 2003]

The second breeding has produced dogs that are with Keota in OK. Horrible health issues with these dogs.
A couple on the board bought a puppy from them and it lived for only a month. It was sicker than a dog when they got it and that was a hard lesson learned. They were offered another pup, but no money back.
They ended up getting one of my adults.

Best of luck with your pup.

[tanza]

@Forever:

Her tail is all curled and she is back to normal but she is going to the vet anyway on friday. I printed out the information on fanconi for the vet that was so conveniently on this thread just to be sure he understands. I have been going to this vet since I came to PA 16 yrs ago so I'm sure he will help me out as much as possible. I'm still hoping I will be lucky with zoe but it will always be my biggest worry for all of her life.

Good for you ….. and fingers crossed that Zoe stays healthly for a very long time...

Remember... you want to start test strips when she is two... and since the strips are only good for 6 months, use them 3/4 days in a row... as early onset of Fanconi can produce mixed results over a couple of days... Early onset you might find OK one day.. spilling the next....
And you might want to discuss with your Vet were to have blood gases done, as that is the next step if you find sugar in the urine. That way you are prepared...

[tanza]

@khanis:

I don't think she said what litter was Kai was from… but these are the dogs the Timmons' have:

Zerah's Little Tex [r/w M, HP089149/01 USA, 3 Feb 2004]
x
Nanny Owens [r/w F, HP127830/05 USA, 20 Nov 2004]

and the second litter was:

WL's Alex
x
Kk Sara Named Me Alix [r/w F, HP057520/01 USA, 10 Jul 2003]

The second breeding has produced dogs that are with Keota in OK. Horrible health issues with these dogs.
A couple on the board bought a puppy from them and it lived for only a month. It was sicker than a dog when they got it and that was a hard lesson learned. They were offered another pup, but no money back.
They ended up getting one of my adults.

Best of luck with your pup.

I don't think they know what litter this pup is from… but I echo your thoughts Kathy.... best of luck with your pup.

[khanis]

@tanza:

Remember… you want to start test strips when she is two... and since the strips are only good for 6 months, use them 3/4 days in a row... as early onset of Fanconi can produce mixed results over a couple of days... Early onset you might find OK one day.. spilling the next....
And you might want to discuss with your Vet were to have blood gases done, as that is the next step if you find sugar in the urine. That way you are prepared...

Actually, for several months you could get off and on results on a basenji spilling sugar. Since the strips come in a bottle of 100…. they will go bad before you use them up... so I tell people to strip-test bi-monthly... use days that you remember, like paydays or 1st/15th. Better to catch it early than let them go too long in betweein tests!

[diff_eqs]

The more I think about it and read this thread, the more thankful I am to those who "criticized" me for trying to make a really bad decision: Lisa, Pat, Kathy, a few others… I hope that SpoiledKai will make the same decision as me: to not get the puppy, although now it does not seem like it. Yes, it's SUPER hard, when you have planned your life to inculde another furball, spent money to prepare for its arrival and already fallen in love with it. This is the second time I had to give up the B puppy (although for completely different reasons)... it only got harder this time. Still, not anywhere near as hard as losing the dog to uncurable condition, which I have also had in the past (Lisa reminded me about how painful it is). SpoiledKai, my heart goes out to you just having to think about that... Still I do not regret making that decision. I might have to wait another year for a new pup, but this time it's going to be great, I know that. Third time's the charm, right?

[Anette]

I'm just so glad that I did my homework and have a sleeping basenjipup who only is faconi carrier. I feel so sorry for those of you who have faconi affected dogs. I've had sick dogs, and the last on I lost to syringomyelia only got to be a year old. Its just heartbeaking to have to put a young (any dog - really) dog to sleep. I hope I never have to do that again.

[Kananga]

There's nothing wrong with trying to educate someone on the health concerns, but I'll be honest, sometimes it comes across to appear very cold instead of helpful. This is why we see people distance themselves because they feel intimidated. Hence my point that everyone is human and you need to understand that fact before asking "why on earth would anyone do that?".

My suggestion is that maybe some of you need to look at how you direct your responses and perhaps try a different approach. I think it's great that the knowledgeable individuals on here take the time to educate us on the important health concerns and the guidelines for finding a responsible breeder. I really do, but unfortunately it comes across very cold and harsh at times and that does not help the situation as a lot of people will distance themselves from that type of behavior.

The idea is to be helpful and understanding, not judgmental. We could all benefit by learning more about this breed and I think sometimes that passion can cause us to get a bit emotional about the topic. No one wants to be lied to, no one wants to take in a Basenji that is Fanconi positive expecting a healthy dog, etc.

I'll make one other point, the reason why some of these irresponsible breeders stay in business is because they are very warm when it comes to interaction with the customer. This attracts business, it's very straight forward.

[khanis]

@Kananga:

I'll make one other point, the reason why some of these irresponsible breeders stay in business is because they are very warm when it comes to interaction with the customer. This attracts business, it's very straight forward.

Correct.
And the way "newcomers" usually leave here and get their BYB or PM dog is because they get treated like crap on this forum.
Plain and simple.
Honey attracts far more suitors than s&#t.

[sonnyboy]

Kananga thanks for saying what you did…for someone who is rather new around this forum I've find myself hesitant to ask questions and seek advice now that I've followed along on some of these posts. It can be rather intimidating to someone seeking advice to feel so criticized for not know any better. I know its offered with the best of intentions but it sure can come across very harsh. just my 2 cents from someone who may not know everything I should but who loves their basenji more then anything.

[Basenjimamma]

..it is very hard for me to emotionally fall in love with a dog or prospect of a dog and then not get it..even though I am supporting the "bad guys" or I am potentially getting a dog with bad genetics or what have you, if I do get it.

We as humans think/hope that it won't happen to me, or this will be that one occasion where the "breeder" is a good, honest guy, he is in it for the breed, yadiyada..

If I don't get that one dog, what will happen to it, the "breeder" already has it, it is not like they will euthanize it to get rid of it, should someone else not be interested..they will turn to shelters or rescue groups, so this is a two fold problem, in my opinion.

If we are to radicate these breeding practices we must unite as animal lovers and not buy from them, nor should the shelters or rescue groups take dogs from them, year after year…We must find a way to make it impossible for the "breeders" to sell these dogs hence they will stop breeding in the first place....and you have to start somewhere, even if it starts with you and your refusal to support it.

I have learned since I got Otis (less then a year ago) to ..
*Not shop for dogs online or in pet stores
*Not believe everything you hear, ask for proof (paperwise or the like), I had my "breeder" grilled at one point and he came through for me
*Do my due diligence as far as what type of breed it is, what is to be expected of that breed when it gets older etc etc. It is a living creature after all, not a sweater I can return once it is worn out...

Will I return Otis, I thought about it, once we had some doubts about his genetics not being correct..we since have solved that via my "breeder" and the AKC peeps, clerical error, but trust me I was pissed and had a ticket waiting for me or should I say him.
Cold, heartless?? maybe, but if they guarantee something they should own up to it and deal with the consequences.
Would I have sent him back..no way..but I needed to get that pissed about the doubtful genetics for the "breeder" to see that at least one person is standing up for what she belives in..
By the way, I knew that my parent stock was fanconi clear, that was the first question on my mind when I contacted my "breeder", of course I didn't ask about all the other health issues..like PPM, now that is another story for another thread.

..just my 0.52 cents about it all..

[tanza]

Kananga and Kathy you are right and Kananga especially about these BYB/PM's. They do suck people in with their bull#$@!. And because these people suck them in with their crap and lies, sometime the voice of reason needs to be louder then theirs. However if you read the beginnings of each thread when someone come on the list and says they are getting (note here meaning has not brought that puppy home yet). The most typical question is Who are you getting your puppy from?… Then, have they been DNA tested for Fanconi? All very civilized. And when many of us hear that there has not been at least DNA Testing for Fanconi, the questions get a bit harder to the prospective buyer. However those questions are to trying and get the buyer to think twice. And when people just show up on the boards that already went and got a puppy from a PM/BYB.. then the most suggested is that the at least the DNA is done. I have never seen anyone here tell people to return the puppy....

Sorry, to sugar coat the truth is not going to make someone really stop and think about what they are about to do.

Which begs the point of this question that I will direct to diff_eqs: When you first posted about getting the puppy from Mtn Springs, had all the responses been something on the line of...

"Super congrats, cute puppy, health tested? You will have lots of fun..."

Would those response caught your attention and get you to step back and reconsider?

I think not....

[YodelDogs]

@khanis:

Correct.
And the way "newcomers" usually leave here and get their BYB or PM dog is because they get treated like crap on this forum.
Plain and simple.
Honey attracts far more suitors than s&#t.

I further agree. We need to be kinder to people on the forums. Our goal should be to gently educate, not berate. I try to put myself in the other person's shoes and respond how I would prefer someone talk to me. It helps keep the conversation calmer and when people are calm they usually absorb info better.

[lvoss]

I think we really are kind to people. The questions "Where did you get your dog from?" and "Were both the parents tested for Fanconi?" are neutral questions. Things take a turn when people become defensive either because they are apparently not proud of where they got their dog or the choices they made and say things to the tune of "None of your business". Even then the response is usually "please, verify for yourself that your dog's parents have been tested using the OFA website, http://www.offa.org and if they aren't there then please get your dog tested." If they haven't already brought the dog home then the the last part is usually, "then please ask that the puppy be tested before you bring it home or if they refuse then look for a breeder who will test."

The other reason things take a turn is because people want to defend breeders who do no testing.

I will admit when we reach this peak in puppy season, I get really frustrated to hear person after person defend breeders who care so little for their dogs they couldn't spend $65 per parent to prevent a terminal illness. I also agree with Pat that saying all sorts of warm fuzzy things without also asking what apparently are the "hard" questions isn't doing anyone any favors. Puppies are cute, that is their nature. So yeah, we could all sit and say "Oh what a cute puppy" and move one and then say "Oh so sorry your puppy has (fill in the blank)" and all be so NICE but if that is what we are going to do, then why be in a forum since none of it is truly sincere. Then we are just saying what is NICE and not really even being nice because I don't think it is nice to say something while also knowing that there is more to it than that.

[tanza]

And to add to lvoss post… if we can change one person's mind for getting a puppy from a less the responsible breeder, then IMO, it is well worth it. And we have, diff_eqs did some soul searching and changed her mind.. and there have been others. And who knows how many lurkers have been educated and maybe went to a responsible breeder.

It is not like we are trying to sell them a puppy and that is why we are pushing that they do their homework first...

[thunderbird8588]

I agree that difficult questions need to be asked and i value the information i have gained since joining the forum, it is invaluable.
I do however think sometimes people come across as harsh and i know the subject is very tricky. I feel sometimes people are crushed and if they are driven away from the forum or afraid to ask questions then this can only be a bad thing.
Maybe when people say the Puppy is cute etc it balances it out a bit. We are all different and that's what makes the forum good.
The Government needs to toughen up it's laws to get rid of BYB and PF

[lvoss]

The laws that are proposed in this country will not touch the puppymills and will only make it so they are the only place to get a purebred puppy because they have the money to lobby congress to make sure they are safe. They only way to put puppymills and BYBs out of business is education. It becomes an issue of economics as long as the BYBs and Puppymills can find buyers then they will continue to operate. If they cannot find buyers and even better lose money on every litter they produce, they will cease. That is why it is so important that people do not support these breeders with their dollar, it is the same as saying, "I agree with this practice and think it absolutely should continue." At least when these breeders get stuck with puppies and turn them over to shelters or rescue they make no profit so are more likely to think twice before doing that breeding again. I do feel that there should be more of a consequence for surrendering litters but I know that the problem with that is people will then just dump those puppies somewhere, a field, a parking lot, etc, and let it be someone else's problem since the whole issue is they refuse to be responsible.

[Kananga]

I think what needs to happen, if these BYBs consider their dogs "products for sale", they need to comply with the rules & regulations that manufacturers and retailers are held to.

If you make Fanconi and other health testing requirements as public as possible, the individuals looking to get a Basenji (or any breed for that matter) will know to ask about it. If you have it in writing that the breeder claims the dog is not affected, that should seal the deal. If it turned out that they lied then you could easily go after them and get the state attorney general involved. Unfortunately I do not think some of the same laws apply to them (I could be mistaken). Ideally you would want to see proof but that doesn't always happen as a lot of people are blinded by the excitement with getting a new puppy.

One mistake could put a BYB out of business and then all of them would have to be very thorough with how they advertise and do business. It's a simple bait and switch to claim one thing and deliver something else. It's flat out fraud in some scenarios and they should be held accountable. If they don't do testing, they would have to come out and say so and they would probably sell less puppies instead of not saying anything at all and hoping no one asks.

I know everyone here has the best intentions, my point was simply to say that sometimes we need to take a step back and evaluate our emotional attachment to the subject. It tends to interfere with getting the message across. The frustration does make an appearance time to time. I know a lot of you are passionate about breeding healthy Basenjis and that's a great thing to work towards.

[tanza]

There are many "lemon laws" for puppies in many states… could they be better, certainly... however of course they are specific to each state. And how well they cross state lines, I have not idea.

[Kananga]

@tanza:

There are many "lemon laws" for puppies in many states… could they be better, certainly... however of course they are specific to each state. And how well they cross state lines, I have not idea.

Regardless of the laws, you could open a civil case against them and put them out of business (they would more than likely declare bankruptcy). Just depends on how knowledgeable the individual is and how dedicated they are to seek justice.

[lvoss]

@Kananga:

Regardless of the laws, you could open a civil case against them and put them out of business (they would more than likely declare bankruptcy). Just depends on how knowledgeable the individual is and how dedicated they are to seek justice.

This is not true, civil cases are still governed by law. Most state laws will entitle you to a refund ONLY if you are willing to return the animal. There are some states that allow for a refund and for you to keep the animal. Very few states allow you to recover MORE than the cost of the puppy. In most of the states where you can recover more than the cost of the puppy they do require that you prove that the breeder had reasonable knowledge that a problem was likely to occur and did not disclose that prior to purchase.