Looking for female red and white Basenji with full breeding rights.
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@AJs:
Fanconi carrier can be bred to Fanconi clear. It's the Possible Affected's that should not be bred and Carrier should not be bred to Carrier. That said, please get advice from other breeders before you embark on this. It's not a way to make money. From what I'm seeing on these forums, most breeders are lucky to break even.
I looked at the website for your bitches' breeder…I'm appalled at the idea of referring to pups as "products" as this breeder does. Also, on looking at the pictures of their pups, I see they refer to a Tri as a Black and White...ehh...huh?
I will only say that in regards to breeding possible Affected, I disagree with not using them. Now, personally I would never use a possible Affected bitch, however I would and plan to in the future use possible Affected and/or collected Affected males. We can't afford to lose the gene pool by discounting these dogs. Granted you must breed to a Clear and you will get all Carriers, however management of these Carriers, bred back to clear, is IMO needed to not lose more out of the gene pool then we have already.
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Ms. Pat, I would suggest that for experienced breeders with a complete understanding of genetics and the ability to look ahead to what will happen generations down the line. That is something for an advanced breeder with plans to stay active in the breed for decades. Somebody like yourself, for example.
This lady sounds like a beginner, although she is doing her homework. That, in and of itself, is to be commended. However, until she is more seasoned, I would say use the KISS method. (Keep It Simple, Stupid)
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While I would tend to agree, I think that it is important to put out there that we should never throw away baby with the bath water
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While I would tend to agree, I think that it is important to put out there that we should never throw away baby with the bath water
Agreed. However, I stand by my statement regarding let beginners start out with stuff that's not too complicated. Keeping the gene pool active is the reason I suggested she consider her Carrier bitch for breeding as long as the Carrier status is the only reason for bypassing her.
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I will only say that in regards to breeding possible Affected, I disagree with not using them. Now, personally I would never use a possible Affected bitch, however I would and plan to in the future use possible Affected and/or collected Affected males. We can't afford to lose the gene pool by discounting these dogs. Granted you must breed to a Clear and you will get all Carriers, however management of these Carriers, bred back to clear, is IMO needed to not lose more out of the gene pool then we have already.
Tanza,
Just curious about why you wouldnt use an Affected bitch, but would use a dog… Why not an Affected bitch ???
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Tanza,
Just curious about why you wouldnt use an Affected bitch, but would use a dog… Why not an Affected bitch ???
It must be a charge on her. I would be affraid of her immune system and would be affraid there could be some complications during pregnancy. I would never risk that.
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Now i'm just guessing here Irena but like you i would think that using an affected Bitch could put a strain on her system as pregnancy does. However maybe if it is a bitch that is classified as possibly affected and she is bred from early before she develops fanconi it is safe as long as she is bred to a clear?
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Not a breeder, and don't plan on it, at least not for a decade or so, as I am just getting started in the breed.
Nonetheless, I would probably guess it would be best to collect and neuter a probably affected male you plan to breed on to prevent the stress of rut from making his fanconi worse.
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Now i'm just guessing here Irena but like you i would think that using an affected Bitch could put a strain on her system as pregnancy does. However maybe if it is a bitch that is classified as possibly affected and she is bred from early before she develops fanconi it is safe as long as she is bred to a clear?
If she would develops Fanconi it would be strain on her immune system in itself and if she would be pregnant further, it would be double strain on her.
It is safe for puppies because they will be carriers (from clear father), but I'm not sure it is safe for female, it is my opinion. -
It must be a charge on her. I would be affraid of her immune system and would be affraid there could be some complications during pregnancy. I would never risk that.
Yes, exactly Irena…. I would not put a bitch through the stress breeding, delivery, raising a litter and/or complications during pregnancy. I would be afraid that breeding/whelping could bring on early onset if they were DNA Affected... and if already spilling, I would never put that added stress on them.
The males that I would consider using are mostly already collected (and many of those dogs have already passed on)..... I am not sure that I would use a male that was spilling, but a young dog, not spilling I would maybe consider
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As some of you may know i have recently had a litter from Tilly (who was tested as Probably Affected) - she was of course mated to a clear dog (tested clear twice), only after discussion with lots of respected breeders throughout the world, and with our vet, we decided that to mate her was safe as she had no indication of developing Fanconi, and as she was only 2, very unlikely that any syptoms would manifest (though i understand not absolutely impossible).
She had 9 (yes 9) healthy puppies on December14th - reared them all herself, absolutely trouble free whelping, and all are now about to go to their new homes this week. She has almost got her figure back in time for Crufts next month, and she will be spayed before her next season. I respect the opinions of those who say they wouldnt mate an affected bitch, but all circumstances in each case have to be taken into account, and in our case i was happy that i was not endangering Tilly herself, and all pups should be unaffected as they will be Carriers - all being tested before they leave for new homes anyway.
I certainly wouldnt have considered waiting till her next season, as the risk would have been greater. -
Hey Scott,
nice to hear from you on the forum :)
Which Pup or Pups have you decided to keep? -
Hi Shelly - tri dog and tri bitch being kept - mind you with 7 tris and only 2 reds there wasnt much option..I will put some more pictures on my Facebook profile of the pups, you can see them there.
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Great stuff Scott, can't wait to see them :)
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It always becomes a personal choice, using a DNA tested possible Affected. And someone that feels comfortable using a bitch, certainly that is their choice. But for me, I would not do it, I just could not bring myself to take that chance. But that is my choice. The important thing is that she was tested and you know what the outcome was… so you knew to go to a clear...
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Scott - that was your choice and I respect your decision but personally I would never have bred from a possibly affected bitch at any stage. .
I'm delighted to hear that the pups are doing so well - I keep wondering as I hadn't heard on the grapevine. Could we have some pictures, please, please!!!!
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I am also delighted the girl is ok.
I know we need to keep all the dogs in the breeding "pool"…quality lines that is.
It just seems it could be so hard on the mom... glad your girl is ok.
Are you going to share the puppies photos?? -
I am glad she has been healthy and you found a boy that complemented her.
Until others are in the position of having little to work with… they really couldn't give a true answer of what they would do in your situations.
Some of us had to go through hell and highwater to get to where we are today....
As for breeding an affected.... never say never.
Have fun with those pups!
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Thanks everyone for your answers…
I did think it was probably due to the possible effects of the pregnancy on the affected bitch, but I was just wondering if there was anything more, that Tanza was meaning, if that makes any sense :).
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Thanks everyone for your answers…
I did think it was probably due to the possible effects of the pregnancy on the affected bitch, but I was just wondering if there was anything more, that Tanza was meaning, if that makes any sense :).
Nope, saba…. no other meaning. And again, that is my choice not to want to breed a possible affected bitch. That said, Kathy and Elscodobermann bring up points that present another side of a situation. I don't think there is really a right or wrong in this situation, but has to be left up to the responsible breeder to do what they feel is best. It just comes down to personal decision (of course provided that we are only talking about Affected to Clear breedings)
