Titers Testing

[Duke]

Great idea Lisa! Thanks - I now have some prices too!

[mauigirl]

I just looked at that price list and I couldn't believe her heartworm test was $15!! I was quoted $42 at my vet. I know he's not a cheap vet but he's familiar with basenjis. I really like the vet himself. But come on. That's ridiculous. They test it themselves there at the vet hospital and the results come back in 10-15 minutes. Could that be why it's so much more expensive? Thoughts? Should I have them draw blood during Zip's exam next week and send it in?

[Duke]

Thank you for the affirmation here, MauiGirl - I got prices from the vet a few days ago - they would, as lvoss indicated send them thru their lab to another lab - prices as follows:

Distemper-parvo-corona = $40.75
Lepto = $49
Hepatitus= $51.25
Parainfluenza = $51.25
Bordetella = $26.75
Rabies = $86.75

Seriously - do all of these? What's really necessary - Pay the total amount - which is a fortune with these fees in total. If I sent them off myself - I believe it would be less - after the vet spinned the blood (kwim) then I'd pay for the transport.

What Titer tests are necessary, how much annually - I'm trying to justify doing these vs. the cost of the shots.

[tanza]

@Duke:

Thank you for the affirmation here, MauiGirl - I got prices from the vet a few days ago - they would, as lvoss indicated send them thru their lab to another lab - prices as follows:

Distemper-parvo-corona = $40.75
Lepto = $49
Hepatitus= $51.25
Parainfluenza = $51.25
Bordetella = $26.75
Rabies = $86.75

Seriously - do all of these? What's really necessary - Pay the total amount - which is a fortune with these fees in total. If I sent them off myself - I believe it would be less - after the vet spinned the blood (kwim) then I'd pay for the transport.

What Titer tests are necessary, how much annually - I'm trying to justify doing these vs. the cost of the shots.

Well, here is my opinion…. don't bother with rabies, you have to give that by law... Lepto, I do not give it or Bordetella, and if you do give Bordetella (as if you board your dog or go to a doggy day care, I believe it would be required annually regardless, so I would not bother with that either. I don't give Corona either, but looks like that is included in the titer test. Did you check out the prices on Dr. Dodds site? Hemopet? To me the most important is Distemper and Parvo.

[Rivermoon]

I just took Chey in for her titers and heartworm test. I paid 90.62 for the Distemper/Parvo titer and 46.50 for her heartworm test.
My vet doesn't vaccinate for Lepto anymore and I can't remember any of my 3 now getting a Corona.

Personally, I prefer to pay for the titers then take the risk of over-vaccinating the dogs.

[sharronhurlbut]

My vet charges me about $5.00 more for the blood titer than the shots.
That sure works for me.
Besides rabies which we have to do by law, my 2 b's have not had to have shots.

[MacPack]

We usually pay bout $50 or $60 for the titer, and heartworm is $35 (average in our area). I figure I don't go to the vet often (fortunately), and I buy my Heartguard and Advantage on-line, so vets have to make a profit or go out of business.
I will be going to a new vet this year for physicals. When we had Topper there a couple of months ago, and I told him I didn't like to do shots, but to titer, & he was hesitant. But I know he will work with me and draw blood for me to ship off, if I need to, so thanks for Dr. Dodds website!

We do the rabies ever 3 years, of course, but miner haven't had shots in over 4 years, the titers are always high.

Anne in Tampa

[Duke]

Thanks for sharing and advice. Hepititus and Parainfluenza titers are not necessary? If not, then I'll let the vet just do the Distemper-Parvo-Corona test and hope for the best results. As far as Bordetella, I take them to a groomer about 3 times a year - does that constitute a "day care"? My vet only has the Bordetella shots - not intranasal. Vet tech said giving intranasal is a struggle that they get what they need for it to be effective - does anyone have that problem?

[tanza]

Well, groomers get all types of dogs and I would bet that many are not vaccinated at all… so you might be safer with the Bordetella... of course there are so many different strains ... that the intranasal or injections only cover a couple of them... works out to 6 of 1, half dozen of the other... Vets or Techs that are very good at nasel usually don't have a problem with the dose... but I will agree it is not the easiest to give.

[Duke]

OK - we're back from vet's office.

Daisy got heartworm test $24 and DHLPP-C vaccination $24.

Duke got heartworm test $24 and Distemper/Parvovirus Titer $60

They got Daisy's blood from her front leg, but they took Duke to a different room and got blood from the neck juggular. Said they needed to take 4 cc's for the titer. Is that normal procedure? I realize I paid way more to titer than for the vaccination - but think if it's healthier than to over-vaccinate - I'll do it. Vet's office wouldn't let me take the blood to send out to Dr. Dodds - her fee is $36, so figuring that by the time I paid vet for the blood, ship it and pay Dr. Dodd - it'll end up being $60…Vet said it'll take 3-4 days for test results.

We skipped bordetella - My kids aren't at the groomers long enough so few times a year...

[tanza]

@Duke:

OK - we're back from vet's office.

Daisy got heartworm test $24 and DHLPP-C vaccination $24.

Duke got heartworm test $24 and Distemper/Parvovirus Titer $60

They got Daisy's blood from her front leg, but they took Duke to a different room and got blood from the neck juggular. Said they needed to take 4 cc's for the titer. Is that normal procedure? I realize I paid way more to titer than for the vaccination - but think if it's healthier than to over-vaccinate - I'll do it. Vet's office wouldn't let me take the blood to send out to Dr. Dodds - her fee is $36, so figuring that by the time I paid vet for the blood, ship it and pay Dr. Dodd - it'll end up being $60…Vet said it'll take 3-4 days for test results.

We skipped bordetella - My kids aren't at the groomers long enough so few times a year...

I think on Dr. Dodds site it says how much blood is needed for the Titer…

And just curious?... How come for Daisy you gave Lepto and Corona?

[Duke]

She got the whole sh'bang because they said the shot is pre-mixed. So at that veterinarians office, they don't have the option of selecting between the DHLPP - it's an all-in-one script. Have you ever heard that? For me - I never questioned the vet, relying on them to do right for my dogs. But in reading about the titers tests, I'm becoming more involved. This was her first adult vaccination - so between now and the next annual check-up - I'll do some re-thinking/research for another vet. I did however, delay her 3yr rabies two weeks from now.

Oh yeah - Dr. Dodds needs 1 ml of separated serum - so I don't know how many "cc's" they need to get 1 ml of the separated (spinned) serum. Does anyone?

Both, Duke & Daisy are doing well. They're happy going outside, but when inside - quickly find a place to snooze.

[lvoss]

Corona should have been a separate vaccine so no reason to give it and Lepto is in a separate liquid carrier solution so they can just rehydrate the DHPP with saline solution to avoid the lepto part of the vaccine.

[Duke]

@lvoss:

Corona should have been a separate vaccine so no reason to give it and Lepto is in a separate liquid carrier solution so they can just rehydrate the DHPP with saline solution to avoid the lepto part of the vaccine.

hmmm - makes me think they say what they want me to know. :mad: The vet bill lists -C as opposed to +C on the end of DHLPP. I should contact them and ask if she did or didn't get the Corona. Other than that, they said it's a pre-mixed group of vaccine - so felt I had no choice if I wanted specifically Distemper and Parvo. Gosh - this is a "pia"! But I want to learn, thank you.

[lvoss]

The DHPP part of the vaccine are premixed. The L part of the shot is in a liquid suspension and is not mixed until the time of injection. So the vet can use sterile saline instead of the liquid suspension with the Lepto when administering the shot. This is what my vet does since I do not want the lepto portion of the vaccine. It is not a big deal but I do always remind them when I make the appointment and again before the shot because if they pre-mix before I arrive sometimes the tech will accidently add the lepto and then they have to mix a new one.

[LiveWWSD]

With all my dogs B or otherwise I have always done the DHPP shot. Where we are in the Pacific NW the risk of Leptopirosis is low enough to not worry with vacination. I have never vaccinated against Corona Virus as it is more an issue for puppies (Transmited by microorganisms in water),just always kept the puppies away from shared water wiht other dogs. I get the Bordatella once a year for my two now, as they both go to doggy daycare. I really prefer the intranasal vaccine as it mimmics the entry point for Bordatella. The first intranasal can be a bit difficult the first time, but my vet always gives the kids just a little bit of string cheese right after. so now Charlie really doesn't mind as he knows he will get a treat out of it, Zaire even did well on her last Bordatella (Then looked right at the vet like "Well I was a good girl, you better have ALOT of cheese for me). :P…..again I would urge you to find a vet that has the Intranasal for Bordatella if you are going to give it, I think it is a more effective Vaccination...of couse that is just MO.

[Duke]

I called the vet office today to ask for Duke's titer test results. They had to call me back and all the gal said was "It looks good." What else should I know about the results? I'm taking Daisy on Thursday for her rabies vaccine - I'll ask for a copy of the test result so I can keep it in his folder for reference.

[Duke]

I got a copy of Duke's titer tests for Distemper and Parvovirus. All the results indicate is that for both: Greater Than 1:5

A titer of 1:5 or greater, with no clinical signs, indicates immunologic response to vaccination. A titer of less than 1:5 indicates poor immunologic response to vaccination.

When I took Daisy back last week for her rabies, I saw a different younger vet that is current with the vaccination concerns and has no problem with testing for titers. I asked her if a titer is necessary for the Hepatitus and Parainfluenza. She indicated that both diseases are rare and for the fact D&D have been vaccinated. She advised that the DHPP shot should be given on a 3 year interval since the titer tests were fine. She said her own mom doesn't give her animals annual vaccinations either for the same concerns I have.

[sharronhurlbut]

Excellent!
No need to give shots when none are needed.
The younger vets "get it" and some of the smarter older ones do as well.
Other, well, they need to get on board.
Hugs for the good results!

[Kris_Christine]

To shed some light on titer testing, the following is from Page 19 the American Animal Hospital Association's 2003 Canine Vaccine Guidelines under the heading "Serological Tests to Monitor Immunity: it states that "Although the committee does not feel it is necessary to determine titers to these core viruses on an annual basis because of the long minimum DOI [duration of immunity] for these products, titers can be used for your and/or your client's assurance that the animal has immunity. Experience with postvaccination titers for CDV [distemper], CAV [hepatitis], and CPV [parvo] shows that sterile immunity lasts for years…........The primary reason for the test is to ensure that you have a positive test after completing the puppy vaccination series."

From Page 16 of the 2003 AAHA Guidelines it reports that, "The MLV [modified live virus (such as distemper, hepatitis, parvo)] vaccines create an immunity that is similar to immunity after an animal recovers from infection." Further, on Page 17, " When MLV [modified live virus (such as distemper, hepatitis, parvo)] vaccines are used to immunize a dog, memory cells develop and likely persist for the life of the animal."

Dr. Alice Wolf, Professor of Small Animal Internal Medicine at Texas A&M College of Veterinary Medicine, stated in an address (Vaccines of the Present and Future http://www.vin.com/VINDBPub/SearchPB/Proceedings/PR05000/PR00141.htm) at the 2001 World Small Animal Veterinary Association World Congress that: "MLV vaccines generally produce longer duration, more solid immunity. Both humoral and cell-mediated immune systems participate strongly in the response. A single vaccination may provide significant immunologic memory (as long as there is no maternal AB interference). MLV vaccines do not, or only infrequently, require revaccination …"..

This is what Dr. Ronald Schultz had to say in his 2007 presentation to the AKC Canine Health Foundation entitled, What Everyone Needs to Know About Canine Vaccines and Vaccination Programs:

"An antibody titer no matter how low shows the animal has immunologic memory since memory effector B cells must be present to produce that antibody. Some dogs without antibody are protected from disease because they have T cell memory, that will provide cell mediated immunity (CMI). CMI will not protect from reinfection, but it will prevent disease."

"My own dogs, those of my children and grandchildren are vaccinated with MLV CDV, CPV-2, CPI, andCAV-2 vaccines once as puppies after the age of 12 weeks. An antibody titer is performedtwo or more weeks later and if found positive our dogs are never again vaccinated. "

The vaccines in the quote above are CDV (distemper), CPV-2 (parvovirus), CPI (canine parainfluenza), and CAV-2 (hepatitis), and Dr. Ronald Schultz is the Chair of the Department of Pathobiological Sciences at the University of Wisconsin School of Veterinary Medicine. His challenge and serological studies on canine vaccines form a large part of the scientific data base upon which the 2003 and 2006 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines are based, as well as the 2007 World Small Animal Veterinary Association's Vaccine Guidelines.

---

Combination Vaccines, Multiple Shots–on Page 16 of the _under Immunological Factors Determining Vaccine Safety, it states that: "Although increasing the number of components in a vaccine may be more convenient for the practitioner or owner, the likelihood for adverse effects may increase. Also, interference can occur among the components. Care must be taken not to administer a product containing too many vaccines simultaneously if adverse events are to be avoided and optimal immune responses are sought. "

---

Rabies Shot Killed my Poodle May 28, 2008 Channel 5 News WCVB http://www.thebostonchannel.com:80/news/16410586/detail.html?rss=bos&taf=bos

Duration of Immunity to Canine Vaccines: What We Know and Don't Know, Dr. Ronald Schultz http://www.cedarbayvet.com/duration_of_immunity.htm

What Everyone Needs to Know about Canine Vaccines, Dr. Ronald Schultz http://www.puliclub.org/CHF/AKC2007Conf/What%20Everyone%20Needs%20to%20Know%20About%20Canine%20Vaccines.htm

World Small Animal Veterinary Association 2007 Vaccine Guidelines http://www.wsava.org/SAC.htm Scroll down to Vaccine Guidelines 2007 (PDF)

The 2003 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines are accessible online at http://www.leerburg.com/special_report.htm .

The 2006 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines are downloadable in PDF format at http://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocumen…s06Revised.pdf .

Veterinarian, Dr. Robert Rogers,has an excellent presentation on veterinary vaccines at http://www.newvaccinationprotocols.com/

October 1, 2002 DVM Newsletter article entitled, AVMA, AAHA to Release Vaccine Positions, http://www.dvmnewsmagazine.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=35171

July 1, 2003 DVM Newsletter article entitled, What Do We Tell Our Clients?, Developing thorough plan to educate staff on changing vaccine protocols essential for maintaining solid relationships with clients and ensuring quality care http://www.dvmnewsmagazine.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=61696

July 1, 2003, DVM Newsletter article, Developing Common Sense Strategies for Fiscal Responsibility: Using an interactive template to plan service protocol changes http://www.dvmnewsmagazine.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=61694

Animal Wellness Magazine Article Vol. 8 Issue 6, How Often Does he REALLY Need A Rabies Shot Animal Wellness Magazine - devoted to natural health in animals

The Rabies Challenge Animal Wise Radio Interview
Listen to Animal Wise (scroll down to The Rabies Challenge 12/9/07)

The Vaccine Challenge Animal Talk Naturally Online Radio Show » The Vaccine Challenge - Show #91

US Declared Canine-Rabies Free – CDC Announces at Inaugural World Rabies Day Symposium CDC Press Release - September 7, 2007

Rabies Prevention – United States, 1991 Recommendations of the Immunization Practices Advisory Committee (ACIP), Center for Disease Control's Morbidity and Mortality Weekly March 22, 1991 / 40(RR03);1-19 http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00041987.htm "A fully vaccinated dog or cat is unlikely to become infected with rabies, although rare cases have been reported (48). In a nationwide study of rabies among dogs and cats in 1988, only one dog and two cats that were vaccinated contracted rabies (49). All three of these animals had received only single doses of vaccine; no documented vaccine failures occurred among dogs or cats that had received two vaccinations. "_