@rugosab said in First signs of aggression? Should I be concerned?:
must be considered ALPHA, as are all my family.
Exactly !!! The only way to run a pack is to be the Alpha at all times.
Basenji Growling & Aggression
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Thank you for this post. I'm in a similar postition and I'm doing all you suggest except for the lead in the house. I'm glad that you have also used the rollover method in extreme times as it does have it's uses in such situations although many consider it to be cruel and useless. When I roll my dog over and he calms I tickle his stomach and believe he does not see this as an humiliating process. The oddest thing here is that the agression is directed at people and not other dogs he meets on walks. He loves the company of other dogs and howls when they leave. We're determined to get there with him.
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Shock collars are never a good idea, IMO. Also, the "alpha dog" training, like that used by Cesar Milan, holding them down to show you're boss, etc., doesn't work with Basenjis. Someone I had walk my dog for a while tried this with Shaye, and the only result was that she would never want to be around her. Trying to train a basenji using force is counterproductive, from what I've seen. Treats, bonding and distraction - when anything works, those work best for mine - usually - of course, sometimes nothing works if she's in a mood.
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I agree with you, but once again I'm not talking about training, I'm talking about agressive behaviour that is unexpected and surprising with no apparent reason. We love our dog but it's hard to carry on being bitten and not play biting either.
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Hello, I am new here and have really one question. Let me give a little info. Our basenji (Harley) is almost 5 yrs of age. He has never had any aggression problems until a few months ago. It started before we got 2 new puppies (female mixed breed mutts). He actually has bitten my husband luckily on the boot but it did puncture through. He has also acted like he was going to bite me but no skin contact. I know some dogs go bad and I do NOT want to have to put him down, we have a grandchild on the way. He has never been treated badly always a good boy until 8 months ago. What I want to know is will getting him neutered make this aggression go away? tia
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Our basenji (Harley) is almost 5 yrs of age. He has never had any aggression problems until a few months ago. It started before we got 2 new puppies (female mixed breed mutts).
I know some dogs go bad and I do NOT want to have to put him downDogs do not "go bad." Really. I promise.
Get a full medical check up, particularly have a full thyroid panel sent off to reputable place (ie not your vet!) like Michigan. Yes, get him neutered. YES, protectiveness and issues over the new pups could be a contributing cause (please tell me they are both spayed because you need to do that IMMEDIATELY if not!!!!).
But please, do not think a dog "goes bad" and had to be destroyed like outdated jug of milk. If this dog was good for 5 yrs, then his health or things you changed in the environment need to be checked, tweaked and fixed.
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Dogs do not "go bad." Really. I promise.
Get a full medical check up, particularly have a full thyroid panel sent off to reputable place (ie not your vet!) like Michigan. Yes, get him neutered. YES, protectiveness and issues over the new pups could be a contributing cause (please tell me they are both spayed because you need to do that IMMEDIATELY if not!!!!).
But please, do not think a dog "goes bad" and had to be destroyed like outdated jug of milk. If this dog was good for 5 yrs, then his health or things you changed in the environment need to be checked, tweaked and fixed.
Thank you for your reply. The puppies will get spayed as soon as old enough. But he did go after one of them. Although he does not act like this all the time, maybe a couple times a week. I am not sure we can afford a thyroid check up until after the holidays. But that is something I will save for. Thank you again
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First of all, he should be neutered, while it is NOT a cure all to aggression, it will help. Second, have you discussed his behavior with his breeder? Third, if you got the puppies a few months ago, then I would assume they are between 5 and 7 months old? Certainly old enough to be spayed. And if they are not and he is not neutered, you are pretty close to a window that they will come in season.
How does he interact with the puppies? The fact the he went after one could just be an adult teaching a puppy proper manners.
What was the interaction when he bit your husband? And tried to bite you? Was there a warning before hand (growl)…
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we just got the puppies around 3 weeks ago. They are about 2 months old maybe younger. they were left on road. He gave no warning growls, just growl bite. I went to play with him like normal and he went off on me. For my husband, just walking past to sit down. We can't get a hold of his breeder. We tried yrs ago when we wanted another basenji. he never bit until yesterday and the pretend bite was last week. Most of the aggression I believe has only been while getting him up off the couch for bedtime. or having him move off the chair so we can sit down. Those are the only times he's been cranky. Otherwise he is a great dog. He plays well with both puppies and I know he is teaching them. I really don't know why he went after the one. We did move a few months ago to a farm if that might have any effect. he gets plenty of exercise. he is also great with the cat. I would have to say it started right before the move.
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It was probably the mood change and packing that could have caused it. Animals def feel when things are about to happen. Maybe you packed up one of his favorite toys and he's taking his frustration out? LOL
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The fact it started before you moved might indicate medical issues, or your stress at moving. The crankiness at being made to move can be dominance, it can be medical problem making moving an issue, it can be a lot.
Really first step is a complete medical.
As for going after the pup, if no injuries occurred, then the intent was correcting not hurting because he definitely could have killed it.
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Actually the toy was a joke… but if they were in the packing/planning stages of moving and that's when his behavior changed, how they behaved during that time could have been a factor.
Whenever I left after the holidays were over to go back to school my cat would pee on my stuff
Or when my dad came home from working over the road (he's a truck driver), she'd pee on his stuff. Just an idea. -
LOL you must have been posting when I was editing and removed my comment as I realized by the wink you meant it sort of tongue in cheek.
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Does anybody know of a Basenji-specific trainer in Maryland? I don't want one that recommends shock collars, as I don't approve of them, but my dog's a bit aggressive, and with all the dogs in the neighborhood, I think it's a good idea to get him some training with a trainer who knows Basenjis.
My Basenji mix lunges at strangers when he's out on walks, growls at the neighbor's dog, and has bitten three dogs in the year that we've had him. Our vet's opinion is that Beasley's a Nervous Nellie, who doesn't want strangers too close to his property. He's pretty good with us- he seems attached to us, laying his head on my lap, sometimes following us around and looking like we're the best thing to ever happen to him. I don't want to have to give him back to the shelter, since I've fallen in love with him, and once people come into the house and Beasley's had a minute or two to get used to the strangers, he's often fine with them.
We've taken him to doggie obedience classes, but while he was good in there(no aggression towards the other dogs), he still seems to think other dogs are Satan's spawn when he's home or on walks. -
I really hope you look into Pat Miller's website, she is located off Speilman Rd in Fairplay. Although her Reactive Rover programs are full until Sept, you can click on her 'Referral' trainers and graduates. I attended a seminar a few months ago, and I highly recommend the procedure. I have used it with great success with many dogs/owners. Please run from any shock collar user! I just recently was hired by a couple who adopted a black lab puppy, at 4 months old he was overly nipping and growly. They had this 'trainer' put on a collar and poor Jasper got worse. He is at my day care center and is doing sooooo much better. The trainer you decide on may not have a full Basenji experience, but should be open to you giving them an account of your problem and if they are worth their weight, should look at many testimonials of Basenji personality (show them the forum!!!) Hope you get good help soon! http://www.peaceablepaws.com/classes.php?type=workshop
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@Buddys:
Please run from any shock collar user! I just recently was hired by a couple who adopted a black lab puppy, at 4 months old he was overly nipping and growly. They had this 'trainer' put on a collar and poor Jasper got worse.
Unfortunately there aren't a lot of trainers who use the collars effectively, but someone who is skilled can work magic (I have seen it done). They get results by very subtle corrections, not full on jolts. But I would concur that it is a last resort, if you can't solve a problem any other way. (I know of a couple of dogs who did not get put down because a skilled trainer reformed them. However, the owner must also learn the correct use of the collar for any ongoing concerns, and it is more complicated than just buying one and slapping it on the dog.)
On leash aggression isn't unusual, and can be challenging to deal with. Often a dog is "good" at classes and shows, not so much when walked locally. I know of two titled Utility Obedience dogs that are wonderful at shows but dog aggressive on walks. Go figure…..
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Yes, eeeefarm, I agree with the use of the e-training collar to be used in such events as hunting/retrieving etc, but not really for 'behavioral issues' where the dog is already reactive to a stimulus that 'it' perceives as threatening. The collar really does not give owner/trainer the necessary input for changing the dog's perception to the aversive stimulus as the collar is just that. It does have it's place, but for most emotional reactive dogs, Basenji's a little more so…..it should not be considered; my opinion. yes, there are magic workers out there for the dogs too! Thanks for your input on that!!!! PS: big YES on the comment concerning the owners understanding the subtle mode!
PS THE SUBTLE MODE BEING THE BUZZER OR VIBRATION AND/OR SOUND NOT THE 'SHOCK'-TO AID IN WHERE THE DUCK WAS DROPPED FOR INSTANCE.
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Well I disagree that there are legit uses for e-collars even in hunting. Since other countries and most trainers here can train without them effectively, it's an unnecessary tool. Any trainer suggesting one for anything other than life-endangering issues (going after snakes and bees, rock eating, for example) isn't one I'd use. Period.
To the OP… well, dog aggression is normal. It really is in many breeds and many dogs. Instead of making your dog LIKE other dogs, why not simply and easily MANAGE it? Get a basket muzzle for walks or vet visits, etc. Your dog will never bite another dog. Ask people to keep their dogs away from your dog. Dogs are not little children who must learn to play with other kids. Your dog can have a full and happy life never interacting with another pet outside of your home.
Many basenji also are wary of strangers. You can work on that easily... go to a park with a helper. Have the helper give out treats. At first have strangers just pass by and toss one to him, not approaching. Have them slowly get closer. After a few times, have them come up to him and drop the treat, still not touching, for a few visits. Next, have them actually hold a hand out to give the treat in the palm of their hand. It won't take your dog long to associate strangers with GOOD. But a lot of dogs do not want several people at once, or anyone moving fast. In your home, crate him til visitors are in and seated, then let him make all the contact. Again, a small treat will help sooth the path so he comes to think visitors equal food/good.
We can control our dogs, we can limit bad responses by limiting the things that cause issues, we can train for many things but you cannot untrain animal-to-animal aggression. Only impressively uninformed people believe that it is ALL in how you train them. People like that get pit bulls and other dog/animal aggressive pets and end up with family and neighbor pets killed because they fail to grasp that there are genetic factors at work. I hosted on an APB board and rarely did a month, usually a week, pass when someone wasn't on there crying their pit killed the family cat/dog etc and how SHOCKED they were because the dog was 2 or 4 or even older and SUDDENLY "turned." No, they didn't "turn" they matured. Not all APB are animal aggressive, but enough are (and they are BRED FOR IT!) that only owners who acknowledge it, understand it and are ever vigilant for signs avoid tragedies. And while Basenji are not as animal aggressive in general as APB, you had better believe and understand it is NORMAL in the breed. Talk to 1000 owners and you'll find most who have or have owned a basenji that would fight at the drop of a hat with strange dogs and/or their own house mates. You will find massive amts who cannot let their OWN DOGS, who grew up together, out without a fight and must keep them separated. We don't euthanize (which is what will happen to your dog if you "return" it to the shelter and are honest about the dog aggression) them over their nature. We manage and control it so it isn't an issue.
And back to shock collars... sure they can work. I darn well guarantee you if I put one on my child I could make her clean her room. Does that mean that it is good, should be used, okay? No. Again, many countries have banned them and oh my gawd their dogs are still being trained, doing great. Clicker folks have proven research after research that you can do more better with a clicker than any shock collar. It is the need for fast and easy, not better, that leads people to them. In dire situations, we sometimes grasp for such things... myself included. But they are not "training tools" but desperation ones, rarely justified. And I'll be glad when we join other countries and ban them.
http://www.goodnewsforpets.com/Articles.asp?ID=147
Consensus of Veterinary Behaviorists: Never use a shock collar "Never, under any circumstances, choose a dog trainer who uses an electronic collar (shock collar)."http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/theotherendoftheleash/simply-wrong
Patricia McConnell: Simply Wrong
A PhD dog behavior expert explains in lay terms what can and does go wrong with devices that shock dogshttp://petprofessionalguild.com/shockcollars
Pet Professional Guild Position Statement on the Use of Shock Collars in Animal Training
This document both explains in very clear language the problems with shock collar training, and includes scholarly references.http://www.dogdaysnw.com/doc/overall_collars.pdf
Considerations for Shock and 'Training' Collars" Statement by eminent veterinary behaviorist Dr. Karen Overall about the use of shock collars.http://www.rottilounge.de/downloads/E_collar_Article.pdf
Clinical Signs Caused by the Use of Electric Training Collars on Dogs in Everyday Life Situations Research paper published in 2007. Conclusion: "We recommend that the use of these devices should be restricted with proof of theoretical and practical qualification required and then the use of these devices should only be allowed in strictly specified situations."http://www.humanespot.org/content/training-dogs-help-shock-collar-short-and-long-term-behavioural-effects
Training dogs with help of the shock collar: short and long term behavioural effects Research paper published in 2004. Conclusion: "The conclusions, therefore are, that being trained is stressful, that receiving shocks is a painful experience to dogs, and that the S-dogs (dogs who were shocked) evidently have learned that the presence of their owner (or his commands) announces reception of shocks, even outside of the normal training context. This suggests that the welfare of these shocked dogs is at stake, at least in the presence of their owner." -
Some interesting articles there, Debra. Of course, most veterinarians are not dog trainers. I was surprised that the vets in the first link supported the use of "gentle leaders", since these are known to cause injury to dogs. They get used because people are unable to train their dogs not to pull. The second link also recommends them. My niece, who is a vet, has seem many neck injuries caused by these tools.
I do use an electronic collar. I use it for a very specific purpose…...to ensure a recall when my dog is loose......and I do not use it for training. Clicker training is faster and a lot more fun! So, I use the e collar for enforcement. Yes, it is an aversive. Funny thing, the way animals learn in nature is by both reward and punishment. They learn what actions bring them pleasure, and what actions bring them pain. The smart ones learn to avoid the pain and go on to live their lives and reproduce. Pain is nature's way of saying "don't do that again!" It is also society's way of saying "don't do that again!" At some point, both humans and animals are going to run up against an aversive.
From observation, I have learned that both horses and dogs are not slow to understand when their own actions cause them discomfort. They tend to avoid things that they find unpleasant, so for example, the sight of a temporary electric fence line dividing the pasture field keeps my horses in the area I would prefer them to graze. Since they know the consequences of touching the fence, they avoid doing that (while grazing within inches of it.) They show no fear of the fence. They know if they do not touch it there are no consequences.
This is the way "invisible" fence works with most (not all) dogs. Properly introduced, it causes no fear, but an understanding that ignoring the warning tone (instead of a visible fence) will result in an unpleasant experience.
The key to effective use of an electronic collar is in the introduction. Done correctly, the animal does not learn to fear it, but to respect it. The "anti shock collar" articles always describe inappropriate usage of the collar, and usually in as dramatic a fashion as possible. Of course, terminology is important here, which is why you will see the term "shock" used. The people on the pro side are also careful with their words, using "stimulation" instead of "shock", but if we can get past semantics what we are describing is a mild and momentary electric shock which can be adjusted over a wide range, from barely noticeable to downright painful.
I've said I don't use the e-collar for training. I have watched training sessions, and they are very low key. What I don't like, either with the e-collar or with conventional collars, is the constant "picking" at the dog. I guess I just don't like "formal" training. Straight sits and correct heeling position are irrelevant on a farm. I just need the dog to do what he's told, and if he stays in a down or sit position, it makes no difference to me, as long as he doesn't move from where I left him. But I do need to be able to interrupt any chasing, and to ensure he comes when I call him, and the e-collar is reliable for this purpose. I use it with my Basenji to keep him safe while allowing him the freedom to run in the fields. He does not fear the collar, although he is "collar wise" (knows the collar is what causes the discomfort, and knows I control the collar). He is happy to have it put on, because that means we are going out the back door to the fields, not out the front door on a leash. And if I tell him "leave it" and he ignores me, I give him a low level stim (shock, if you will), and he gives me a look that says "Oh, if you insist" and stops doing whatever he shouldn't be doing (eating excrement, or rolling in it, that kind of thing). In a normal day, I seldom have to do more than use a verbal reprimand, but if something unexpected occurs.....like the neighbour's cat or a skunk......I have the means to stop the chase. And yes, if he ignores my call I will dial it up and he will yelp and break off his chase and come back to me, and be just as calm and casual as he was before the incident. No more dramatic than if he ran into thistles, which also cause him to yipe. If this is cruelty, I think it is far less damaging than leaving a dog confined in a crate all day long, but that is another topic.
Incidentally, I would never have dreamed of using an e-collar on my Border Collie. But these dogs were bred for cooperative work with humans, and controlling them at a distance is in their genes. Not so much with Basenjis!
Does this look like a fearful, unhappy dog to you?
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Thanks, very insightful!
Looks like a happy camper to me… -
Thanks, very insightful!
Looks like a happy camper to me…Yep, sure does! Love that nose to nose with the big guy (gal)
