Behavior Change for the Better

[Micah]

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[Micah]

They do change during rutting season,I think it’s different for each Basenji.

My boy was less welcoming to big males during rutting season this year, he had 2 scraps with his German Shepard mate that my boy has known since a pup and adored. But he wasn’t interested in mounting, only tried mounting when we came across a bitch in heat on our walk that was giving signs to my boy.

At 1 years old when my boy understood what rutting season was he would sit by the front door and howl his head off, he will look out the window and howl his head off. But when he became 2 years old he learnt to a extent how to control himself, he was quieter this year and didn’t do the crazy howling like he did when he was 1 years old, but did whimper in the morning for walks to search for females.

He tricked me twice in the morning into walking him thinking he was ill but I realised straight after walking him what he did.... he wasn’t interested in going toilet he was interested in finding females!

Cockerpoos and Basenjis are very very different.

[Zande]

@sanjibasenji I very much doubt it ! Mine are now two and one year(s) old and they were both very pushy until it tailed off in the past few days.

Mku was in love with 5 Pointers who we often meet in the woods and it got so I had to put him on a lead for at least half a mile, going in the opposite direction. Otherwise he went the full double circuit of the forest with them and their owner on a bicycle ! There are three Samoyeds he fancies particularly too. Otherwise, just any bitch will do !

Kito persistently tried it on with a (fixed) Whippet male. <sigh> He is the younger one. Next year he will be more appropriately focused, no doubt

Thankfully mine have never whined - but howled, yes. When I had the full 8-pack of three boys and 5 girls, I put a nursery alarm in the kennel where the boys were housed for the duration of the season season. That way I could share the village's pain of the 2 am timber-wolfing.

At least it is only once a year !

[sanjibasenji]

@chenke

Good to know this is happening with yours as well, though sorry you're going through it as well.

I was beginning to re-think why I got a basenji. Now he's a different dog and I think I'll keep him. Ha!

[sanjibasenji]

@micah said in Behavior Change for the Better:

he would sit by the front door and howl his head off

Wow, exactly what we experienced. Appreciate that you chimed in. Sanji also would howl and "lied" in the morning about having to get out for a dookie.

So glad to know this was temporary and others have had the same experience. Thanks.

[Micah]

@sanjibasenji no problem , expect it to happen each year.

It’s part of the package with owning a male Basenji

[sanjibasenji]

@tanza @Zande @Zande
My vets (father-son team), whose knowledge I respect, seriously doubted that male basenjis experience a rut. I tried to explain that although I could not find any literature on it, it doesn't seem to be a coincidence that breeders in the UK, US, and Canada, with decades of experience, confirmed the same phenomenon happening with males at the same time of the year for the same duration, year after year -- whining, agitated, less responsive to commands, constantly wanting out to seek females whether he scents they're in heat or not. This came up in a discussion of Sanji's excessively licking his testicles (after the rut) to the point of causing redness (which may not be related and which the vets say could be caused by adolescence or an allergy, which it may be).

However, as for the rut experience, if the same thing happens next year, I'll be 100% convinced, if I'm not already by others chiming in that this does happen. But does anyone know of any literature substantiating this phenomenon? I'd love to show it to my vets. I asked them what they learned about basenjis, and their response was that other than the kinds of diseases that any breed may be susceptible to, there was nothing he learned that suggested male basenjis or any dogs experience a rut, even if basenji females generally, though not always, are in heat at that time of year. I added that I'd like to get the breeders on this forum together in a room with some vets to discuss this. All he conceded is that it may be something that researchers haven't investigated.

So, again I'd really like to know if anyone has ever came across any literature on this.

[tanza]

@sanjibasenji - Both Zande and I are breeders and long time in the breed. What we say is normal for the breed (Males in rut)... I have had many males that will exhibit this every year, in-tact or neutered. Not only that neutered males will often mount and tie a bitch in season. You will NOT find "literature" on this, but all experienced Basenji breeders and owners will tell you as they have this is typical Basenji behavior. Keep in mind that 90% of bitches come in season once a year, typical to the breed as not found in many other breeds. And not only that they all follow the same pattern. Many years ago (1990) the Basenji National was in June and there was once bitch in a post whelping season that had a puppy season, all of the bitches at the show came in season. Many puppies that year were born August/September of which I had one of each. Within a year all seasons were back to the normal time for Basenjis and puppies where born at the normal times in Oct/Nov/Dec... some into Jan. Yes we do have litters born at off times, but far and few in between. Ask your vet why almost all Basenji are born in those months and in places like Australia they are born in April/May/June.... It is the way of the breed. Years ago many Vets discounted Fanconi in Basenjis and the protocol developed for them by Dr. Gonto, I myself have talked to many a Vet about this and until they talked to Dr. Gonto didn't believe in the only treatment. We are lucky that a gene was discovered that showed this was a recessive gene and with testing it can be resolved and we no longer have to produce pups that would die of this horrible affilication with careful testing before breeding. So I would suggest that your Vets talk to experienced breeders that have been in the breed for many, many years. And if your Vets do not believe that male Basenjis have "rut", what do they say was going on as this is normal to many a Basenji. And does if matter if there is research about this? Breeders will tell you it is and I know that my Vets will listen and learn from responsible breeders. I am NOT criticizing you only pointing out that Vets or others that are not familiar with the breed are many times not open to what breeders can tell them.

[Zande]

@sanjibasenji I'm sorry but I think I am missing something here.

You are tending to take the word of a vet, who may have seen two or three different Basenjis for brief visits, against the experience of breeders who have had males and females in quantity and in residence over many years !

My Vets will consult ME if there is the slightest doubt or something is new to them. They have 21 years of my Basenjis (I changed vets in 2000 after my family had about 50 years with another Practice, including 20 with Basenjis) and these are the only ones they have ever treated. Over the years I have trained them into the ways of our Breed.

It is not exactly literature, but do go to my website and read my piece "Basenji Boys Have A Rutting Season Too" - http://www.zandebasenjis.com/rutting.htm

Believe me, there are MANY aspects of Life with a Basenji where I and other experienced breeders around the world have better knowledge than any vet.

You should take our knowledge as being far more reliable than the opinion of a Vet inexperienced in the ways of our Breed. In any case - your own experience has shown you, albeit only once so far - that we have the right of it.

[sanjibasenji]

@tanza
Thanks Pat, I know you're not criticizing me. I'm in agreement with you all. I think this is a clear case in which the science world, for whatever reason, is behind reality, which is the common pattern I and you all are experiencing: that male basenji's experience a rut.

He did not doubt that basenji bitches tend to ovulate once a year as you describe, but that males have a rut and act differently during the same period. It only matter if there is research on this to convince my vet that his knowledge needs updating. He said he was open to the possibility.

Thanks for your helpful input.

[sanjibasenji]

@zande said in Behavior Change for the Better:

You are tending to take the word of a vet, who may have seen two or three different Basenjis for brief visits, against the experience of breeders who have had males and females in quantity and in residence over many years !

Perhaps I didn't write clearly, but in fact I wrote that I don't believe my vet is correct and that you all are correct. I wrote above,

I tried to explain [to my vet] that although I could not find any literature on it, it doesn't seem to be a coincidence that breeders in the UK, US, and Canada, with decades of experience, confirmed the same phenomenon happening with males at the same time of the year for the same duration, year after year -- whining, agitated, less responsive to commands, constantly wanting out to seek females whether he scents they're in heat or not.

I hope I can start to inform my vet (about this matter at least) as you have yours.

You should take our knowledge as being far more reliable than the opinion of a Vet inexperienced in the ways of our Breed.

Indeed, that is what I was trying to convey on this point, that it cannot be world-wide coincidence that "breeders in the UK, US, and Canada, with decades of experience, confirmed the same phenomenon happening with males at the same time of the year for the same duration, year after year..."

Thanks for the link to your observations. I'm wondering if I could contact your vet and ask if my vet may consult them to learn more about basenjis. Would this be appropriate?

BTW, since his rut ended, Sanji is like an entirely different dog. Cuddly, sweet, playful, obedient, etc. I've grown so fond of him now. Dream dog!

My guess is that he had a particularly strong rut due going through puberty and taking him out everyday for substantial socializing, exercise, including him chasing deer (I've cut back on that until the recall is perfected), and that this may have resulted in a particularly strong hormonal system and sex drive in him. But this is just an uninformed guess. Maybe some basenjis regardless differ on that as Pat seems to suggest.

[sanjibasenji]

@tanza

Postscript: I just looked at your web (don't know why I hadn't) and realized you are in Pleasanton. Small world! I've ended up in Michigan, but I was born in Oakland (1962), raised in Castro Valley. My sister still lives there, my brother in Livermore, Mom in Reno. Next time I'm out there visiting family, would love to stop by and see your dogs. We may bring Sanji with us. Would that be OK?

[eeeefarm]

@sanjibasenji said in Behavior Change for the Better:

including him chasing deer

You might want to be careful about that. On a hunter's forum for Michigan I read about the "3S" rule in regard to dogs chasing deer. (shoot, shovel, and shut up). And this quote "if we see a dog on a deer or moose, legal or not, 99% of us will shoot it."

Word to the wise....

(I know farmers with the same solution to dogs bothering their livestock)

[sanjibasenji]

@eeeefarm

Thanks. I'm careful to avoid areas where such hunters are, which isn't the areas I frequent (never private land). Even when Sanji is older and the training is more or less completed, and he would obey my recall after siting deer, I wouldn't take him out on the mountain biking trails in the larger public lands during hunting season for my own safety as well. Muzzle loading season isn't too bad, but we never ride the trails during rifle season, except at night.

Where he chased deer was within a Midland City Forest Park, 520 acres, in a suburban area (surrounded by housing). No hunters. But I'm not taking him even there again until I have better control and he stays within my eye site and keeps in my vicinity.

The training I'm doing in Bartsow Woods, a 24 acre fenced park near my house, is perfect for this. About 90% of visitors come with their dogs for off-leash romps, so it's ideal for recall training and tracking. Lots of distractions. And since his rut, I realized that the training progressed more than I realized. I hardly have to use the ecollar to bring him away from a pack, my whistle works, and when I do have to use the ecollar, it's just a low setting nick. Very happy lately. And now I know this will probably change next fall when he goes into rut again.

[tanza]

@sanjibasenji - Well my girls are older so maybe not a great idea unless we meet outdoors and walk on lead to see how they get alone.

[elbrant]

@eeeefarm said in Behavior Change for the Better:

legal or not, 99% of us will shoot it.

That horrifies me. About 2 weeks ago, I had a young (10 yo?) boy tell me that if he had his gun he would shoot my "Fox". I understand hunting (for meat, survival, etc.). I do not understand how an adult can put a gun in the hand of a child and not teach them the difference between wildlife and a pet on a leash. (withholding emotional outlash because this wasn't anyone on the forum)

[Zande]

@sanjibasenji I'm sorry if I misunderstood you. And I am not sure if it is me to whom you address the question about putting the vets in touch ?

Frankly, at the moment, no. We are not allowed in to the Vet's office with our dogs. We phone from the carpark that we have arrived and the Vet comes out and collects the animal, take it inside, and subsequently brings it back and we have a consultation, sort of, on the carpark. Often in the pouring rain.

There are four Vets at the Practice I use. One has Covid despite all their precautions. (Of course it is my favourite !) So they are under considerable stress at the moment.

[sanjibasenji]

Sally -
Thanks and "no worries" (as they say here in the Midwest). Hope all is well with you and HAPPY holidays!