For Sale/Waiting List Post Rules: Read First

[lvoss]

Maybe a Buyer's Guide with section like Why Choose a Responsible Breeder, DeMystifying Health Testing, What are you Paying For, Making Sense of Alphabet Soup (What does that Title Mean), etc, with a glossary of terms at the end.

[tanza]

And people can go to the Basenji Club of America and read what "they should be asking a Breeder".. I also have a link to that on my site and there is a link to it on the Basenji Club of Northern California web site also…

As said, everyone is most likely sick and tired of us with our harping about these things, but all you have to do is spend some time with "throw away" dogs (and those of you that have gotten your Basenjis from rescue, that is what they were in 90% of the cases).... and can understand why we push that people do their homework and get their Basenjis for a responsible breeder

[lvoss]

The BCOA Learn site is a great resource. I think a Buyer's Guide could be a great complement to what is already there.

As both you and Andrea have stated, after doing rescue, there is no over-emphasizing how important the role of a responsible breeder is. The screening, support, health testing, early socialization are all things that are so important to finding the right fit for your household. It should also be emphasized what a difference a reputable rescue organization can make also by providing dogs that have been evaluated, health screened, and providing support for the life of the.

[dash]

I think all the things suggested are good but it may be intimidating for someone if they have no idea what they are reading. I think less info would be better so the individual would have to contact the breeder for info. Then the breeder has contact to explain everything they want to explain.

I think just some basic questions + contact information and the web link is sufficient.

And I honestly don't get sick of any of you for "harping". I respect the years of experience and knowledge you have. It is good to see you have a true love and passion for the breed and are not interested in a quick buck.

[lvoss]

The BCOA site has the questions and contact information but I don't think that people are really getting the message about WHY it is so important. I understand that the information can be a little intimidating but it needs to be out there and in an understandable format. I still get countless emails from people who say "I just want a pet, none of that other stuff matters." All of that other stuff really does matter for the everyday pet owner but they need to understand why so when they ask the right questions they can make sense of the answers.

[Quercus]

@dash:

I think all the things suggested are good but it may be intimidating for someone if they have no idea what they are reading. I think less info would be better so the individual would have to contact the breeder for info. Then the breeder has contact to explain everything they want to explain.

I think just some basic questions + contact information and the web link is sufficient.

And I honestly don't get sick of any of you for "harping". I respect the years of experience and knowledge you have. It is good to see you have a true love and passion for the breed and are not interested in a quick buck.

Dash, what do you think would be intimidating? It would be great to have some input from those that are on the learning side of the equation, instead of the teaching side.

I am concerned that less info would just be less info. If someone doesn't know what questions to ask, many breeders (especially irresponsible ones) aren't going to volunteer information. As a consumer you really have to ask the questions you want answers to point blank. e.g. How many dogs in this puppy's pedigree have been Fanconi affected? How many have produced Fanconi? Does this dog have an OFA number? Will you take this puppy back at any time if my life situation changes?

If the buyer doesn't ask the questions…it is pretty much buyer beware.

I have a client right now that paid THOUSANDS of dollars of a purebred dog of a very rare breed. The dog has terrible temperament that is completely inappropriate for the breed. The person she bought the dog from will take it back, but not refund the money. The breeder of the dog will not take the dog back, nor refund her money...but she will send another puppy. There is not much I can tell this woman, other than, buyer beware. The woman she bought the dog from wouldn't let her come to her house, they did the exchange in a parking lot...pretty astounding red flag for something she was paying so much money for.

[tanza]

The problem is that if they contact people like you can find on puppyfind.com that are BYB's the breeder has nothing to tell them… and if they do not know what to ask and why, then they never find out.... they are told mostly by these people "I raise healthly Basenjis!", period... and they don't even know that there are genetic problems in our breed and in most cases don't care.. just want to make the buck... I can tell you that I would never ship a puppy to someone... either they come and personally pick it up or there is no sale, period... (unless it is someone I know and even then I prefer that the pup is personally picked up, as I don't like flying them as cargo). Look at all the BYB's that advertise "shipping"... They would not have a clue who is really buying that pup, nor do they care....

Again, while the information might get "heavy" IMO, people should be learning what they need to ask... and people need to treat buy a dog or any pet and spend as much time as they do buying a car....

[dash]

I don't disagree at all. I will be perfectly honest–please don't hate me. Most people IMO are very "now" people. If they have the choice between going to the pet store and seeing a puppy in the window and saying "oh, how cute, how much--and the pet store tells them 8 bazillion dollars" So then they go and start a search for breeders. If they would find this website and see a daunting list of things they don't really understand they may feel intimidated by their lack of knowledge and not even bother with trying. If you have the same info on the website as the petstore but a contact number as well then you get the oppurtunity as a breeder to really explain what is important. I guess I would compare it to me going to talk to someone about space travel. I know nothing about it so I would be so overwhelmed I would never attempt to really learn and just forget about it. With the pet store-it is no questions asked, I have to pay a little more but it saves me the embarrasment and frankly, the hassle.

I think I am rambling. I think it is critical for the breeder to be the teacher to the buyer and build a repor that makes them WANT to learn. I believe all of you who are on here are those people. You can, from years of experience, explain the necessity for the tests and proper breeding without being intimidating.

Tanza, you are correct, they can contact puppyfind.com or wherever but that is the difference your call can make to them.

I am a business person and I am amazed that you all breed for love of the breed and not profit. I don't get it. But I admire it.

I hope this makes some sense.

[Quercus]

@dash:

I don't disagree at all. I will be perfectly honest–please don't hate me. Most people IMO are very "now" people. If they have the choice between going to the pet store and seeing a puppy in the window and saying "oh, how cute, how much--and the pet store tells them 8 bazillion dollars" So then they go and start a search for breeders. If they would find this website and see a daunting list of things they don't really understand they may feel intimidated by their lack of knowledge and not even bother with trying. If you have the same info on the website as the petstore but a contact number as well then you get the oppurtunity as a breeder to really explain what is important. I guess I would compare it to me going to talk to someone about space travel. I know nothing about it so I would be so overwhelmed I would never attempt to really learn and just forget about it. With the pet store-it is no questions asked, I have to pay a little more but it saves me the embarrasment and frankly, the hassle.

I think I am rambling. I think it is critical for the breeder to be the teacher to the buyer and build a repor that makes them WANT to learn. I believe all of you who are on here are those people. You can, from years of experience, explain the necessity for the tests and proper breeding without being intimidating.

Tanza, you are correct, they can contact puppyfind.com or wherever but that is the difference your call can make to them.

I am a business person and I am amazed that you all breed for love of the breed and not profit. I don't get it. But I admire it.

I hope this makes some sense.

hmmmm….now I am the opposite. I want to find as much info as I can on my own before I approach someone. For one thing, I want to sound like I kinda know what I am talking about...and I want to know enough that I can tell if they are legitimate.

I think it is a little unrealistic to expect that someone you are buying something from...especially a living being, that will be sharing your house for up to 15 years.... is responsible for educating you. To me that seems like the buyer's responsiblity. The seller's responsiblity is to be able to answer your questions to your satisfaction. Same as any business transaction.

[lvoss]

I am also like Andrea, before I make a decision I try to get as much information as possible. I do realize though that many people do not want to spend as much time doing the research. The purpose of a Buyer's Guide is to provide the information in a format that is accessible to the general public. It should be written so that it provides the information at a level that some one interested in a companion can make sense of. Using your example of learning about Space Travel. A scientist writing and article for other scientists will write in a different style and level then a scientist writing an article for the layperson who reads USA Today.

Telling people what questions to ask and giving a list of breeders will not tell them what answers to expect and why. I know people who have dogs who are suffering from genetic disorders who tell me, "I thought I asked the right questions" They did ask if the parents had any known problems and they were told "No, my vet says they are all healthy." They didn't know that they needed to ask for an OFA number, a CERF number, if the dog was strip tested, if the its sire and dam were. So it is not about just asking the questions, it is about knowing what a good answers is, what an ok answer is, and what a bad answer is.

Are there people who won't take the time to do their homework? Of Course! But that does not mean that a Buyer's Guide should not be created and posted so that people can find the information they need to make an educated purchase.

[Quercus]

Lisa, I really like the idea of a buyers guide. If we kept it simple we might be able to post it a lot of different places. And maybe even have hard copies available to breeders so when someone calls interested in puppies we can pop something in the mail to them?

Maybe this is something outreach should work on?

[lvoss]

Good idea!

[tanza]

Yes it is a good idea for outreach…. but of course someone has to help do the work.... we have not have must support, still trying to get the FAQ's. We have posted on many of the web sites BCOA information for contact about puppies... One problem is a place like puppyfind.com has so many listings.. it is a bit difficult to compete... my personal opinion is that all responsible breeders need to flood those sites... with ads...

Sorry for the post to the Forum on this, as it might not make sense to many of you, but the Basenji Club of America has an Outreach committee to help educate people on Basenjis....

[tanza]

@tanza:

Yes it is a good idea for outreach…. but of course someone has to help do the work.... we have not have must support, still trying to get the FAQ's. We have posted on many of the web sites BCOA information for contact about puppies... One problem is a place like puppyfind.com has so many listings.. it is a bit difficult to compete... my personal opinion is that all responsible breeders need to flood those sites... with ads...

Sorry for the post to the Forum on this, as it might not make sense to many of you, but the Basenji Club of America has an Outreach committee to help educate people on Basenjis....

(Opps that would be "had MUCH support)

[tanza]

@dash:

I don't disagree at all. I will be perfectly honest–please don't hate me. Most people IMO are very "now" people. If they have the choice between going to the pet store and seeing a puppy in the window and saying "oh, how cute, how much--and the pet store tells them 8 bazillion dollars" So then they go and start a search for breeders. If they would find this website and see a daunting list of things they don't really understand they may feel intimidated by their lack of knowledge and not even bother with trying. If you have the same info on the website as the petstore but a contact number as well then you get the oppurtunity as a breeder to really explain what is important. I guess I would compare it to me going to talk to someone about space travel. I know nothing about it so I would be so overwhelmed I would never attempt to really learn and just forget about it. With the pet store-it is no questions asked, I have to pay a little more but it saves me the embarrasment and frankly, the hassle.

I think I am rambling. I think it is critical for the breeder to be the teacher to the buyer and build a repor that makes them WANT to learn. I believe all of you who are on here are those people. You can, from years of experience, explain the necessity for the tests and proper breeding without being intimidating.

Tanza, you are correct, they can contact puppyfind.com or wherever but that is the difference your call can make to them.

I am a business person and I am amazed that you all breed for love of the breed and not profit. I don't get it. But I admire it.

I hope this makes some sense.

Well, I am a business person too, but breeding dogs is NOT a business it is a hobby, pure and simple… that that is way we breed for the love of the breed and not for profit, different then BYB's who claim to breed for the love of the breed, but make a profit... or of course puppymills.. who only breed for profit.

And while we need to teach.... I agree with Andrea and Lisa... the buyer needs to take responsibility for their actions... You are buying a living thing that you will be responsible for life.... why would you not educate yourself on that?... and what kind of pet is the best for your home?.... And yes, these are newer concepts from 30yrs ago... and breeders have learned that screeening buyers is necessary because if you look in some BYB and PM pedigrees your will see Ch stock from well known bloodlines.... As they say, live and learn....

[dash]

… the buyer needs to take responsibility for their actions..

Absolutely, but they don't and the dogs may end up in rescue or euthanized which I thought was the point of trying to get them to see as much info as possible prior to making the decision to buy from a pet store or puppyfind. Correct me if I am wrong.

A buyers guide is an excellent idea! Someone can call and then get info that they can read later about what they need to look for so they can ask the right questions.

I also think it is a good idea to advertise on puppyfind.

[Quercus]

@tanza:

Yes it is a good idea for outreach…. but of course someone has to help do the work.... we have not have must support, still trying to get the FAQ's. We have posted on many of the web sites BCOA information for contact about puppies... One problem is a place like puppyfind.com has so many listings.. it is a bit difficult to compete... my personal opinion is that all responsible breeders need to flood those sites... with ads...

Sorry for the post to the Forum on this, as it might not make sense to many of you, but the Basenji Club of America has an Outreach committee to help educate people on Basenjis....

Sorry, Pat…hanging head as an ashamed member of the outreach committee who hasn't yet had a chance to deal with the FAQs. The email kind of fell of my radar, but I will go back and deal with it.

[Quercus]

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[dash]

I'm sorry if I was confusing. The issue with euthanasia, rescue etc is a big problem and educating buyers is critical. I think we would all agree on that.

I am trying to figure out why someone (myself included) would buy from pet stores or puppyfind instead of going to a breeder. I believe it is convenience. So, for the potential buyer who decides to do some research elsewhere that is where I think the breeder can help. Had the breeder I contacted explained something as opposed to just saying-no, I don't have any puppies. Or even the rescue saying the same thing. (I had not heard of BRAT) I probably would have been in a different situation. I didn't know what questions to ask and I personally was bombarded by all the info online. Maybe that is just me but you asked for input from the learning side and I am definatley that.

I shouldn't put the entire burden of education on you, the breeder, that is simply not fair. So I aplogize.

[tanza]

@dash:

I'm sorry if I was confusing. The issue with euthanasia, rescue etc is a big problem and educating buyers is critical. I think we would all agree on that.

I am trying to figure out why someone (myself included) would buy from pet stores or puppyfind instead of going to a breeder. I believe it is convenience. So, for the potential buyer who decides to do some research elsewhere that is where I think the breeder can help. Had the breeder I contacted explained something as opposed to just saying-no, I don't have any puppies. Or even the rescue saying the same thing. (I had not heard of BRAT) I probably would have been in a different situation. I didn't know what questions to ask and I personally was bombarded by all the info online. Maybe that is just me but you asked for input from the learning side and I am definatley that.

I shouldn't put the entire burden of education on you, the breeder, that is simply not fair. So I aplogize.

Totally no reason to apologize at all….. I think that the reason that people go to pet stores is because that is how it was done for years and years... same with buying a puppy out of the newspaper. Difference now is that is lots of information on how and why to buy a puppy/companion on the web and easier to find responsible breeders "IF" you are willing to learn first and understand why they ask questions..ggg... and WHY you as the buyer should ask questions... Also I agree there is lots of conflicting information even on line.. that is why people need to take their time... I always recommend that people personally visit with someone that has Basenjis regardless of where they intend to buy. Lisa and I always "swap" people for visits... and because we don't breed often, 99% of the time the people visiting have no expectations of getting a puppy from us, so there is no pressure... just a learning experience.
As far as pet store and even newspaper ads.. I think it is "impluse" buying... I see a cute puppy, I want that cute puppy....