I absoloutely agree with not enabling, it's just 200$ isn't a lot to enrich two lives. It's hard for me to sometimes see these poor dogs when I spoil Oakley rotten as he is the only thing in my life (no kids). I sometimes spend more than that on Oak in a day…I will instead make a donation to BRAT, as has been my Christmas wish from those giving me gifts. At least this way I will feel as though I'm contributing to something
For Sale/Waiting List Post Rules: Read First
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I think all the things suggested are good but it may be intimidating for someone if they have no idea what they are reading. I think less info would be better so the individual would have to contact the breeder for info. Then the breeder has contact to explain everything they want to explain.
I think just some basic questions + contact information and the web link is sufficient.
And I honestly don't get sick of any of you for "harping". I respect the years of experience and knowledge you have. It is good to see you have a true love and passion for the breed and are not interested in a quick buck.
Dash, what do you think would be intimidating? It would be great to have some input from those that are on the learning side of the equation, instead of the teaching side.
I am concerned that less info would just be less info. If someone doesn't know what questions to ask, many breeders (especially irresponsible ones) aren't going to volunteer information. As a consumer you really have to ask the questions you want answers to point blank. e.g. How many dogs in this puppy's pedigree have been Fanconi affected? How many have produced Fanconi? Does this dog have an OFA number? Will you take this puppy back at any time if my life situation changes?
If the buyer doesn't ask the questions…it is pretty much buyer beware.
I have a client right now that paid THOUSANDS of dollars of a purebred dog of a very rare breed. The dog has terrible temperament that is completely inappropriate for the breed. The person she bought the dog from will take it back, but not refund the money. The breeder of the dog will not take the dog back, nor refund her money...but she will send another puppy. There is not much I can tell this woman, other than, buyer beware. The woman she bought the dog from wouldn't let her come to her house, they did the exchange in a parking lot...pretty astounding red flag for something she was paying so much money for.
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The problem is that if they contact people like you can find on puppyfind.com that are BYB's the breeder has nothing to tell them… and if they do not know what to ask and why, then they never find out.... they are told mostly by these people "I raise healthly Basenjis!", period... and they don't even know that there are genetic problems in our breed and in most cases don't care.. just want to make the buck... I can tell you that I would never ship a puppy to someone... either they come and personally pick it up or there is no sale, period... (unless it is someone I know and even then I prefer that the pup is personally picked up, as I don't like flying them as cargo). Look at all the BYB's that advertise "shipping"... They would not have a clue who is really buying that pup, nor do they care....
Again, while the information might get "heavy" IMO, people should be learning what they need to ask... and people need to treat buy a dog or any pet and spend as much time as they do buying a car....
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I don't disagree at all. I will be perfectly honest–please don't hate me. Most people IMO are very "now" people. If they have the choice between going to the pet store and seeing a puppy in the window and saying "oh, how cute, how much--and the pet store tells them 8 bazillion dollars" So then they go and start a search for breeders. If they would find this website and see a daunting list of things they don't really understand they may feel intimidated by their lack of knowledge and not even bother with trying. If you have the same info on the website as the petstore but a contact number as well then you get the oppurtunity as a breeder to really explain what is important. I guess I would compare it to me going to talk to someone about space travel. I know nothing about it so I would be so overwhelmed I would never attempt to really learn and just forget about it. With the pet store-it is no questions asked, I have to pay a little more but it saves me the embarrasment and frankly, the hassle.
I think I am rambling. I think it is critical for the breeder to be the teacher to the buyer and build a repor that makes them WANT to learn. I believe all of you who are on here are those people. You can, from years of experience, explain the necessity for the tests and proper breeding without being intimidating.
Tanza, you are correct, they can contact puppyfind.com or wherever but that is the difference your call can make to them.
I am a business person and I am amazed that you all breed for love of the breed and not profit. I don't get it. But I admire it.
I hope this makes some sense.
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I don't disagree at all. I will be perfectly honest–please don't hate me. Most people IMO are very "now" people. If they have the choice between going to the pet store and seeing a puppy in the window and saying "oh, how cute, how much--and the pet store tells them 8 bazillion dollars" So then they go and start a search for breeders. If they would find this website and see a daunting list of things they don't really understand they may feel intimidated by their lack of knowledge and not even bother with trying. If you have the same info on the website as the petstore but a contact number as well then you get the oppurtunity as a breeder to really explain what is important. I guess I would compare it to me going to talk to someone about space travel. I know nothing about it so I would be so overwhelmed I would never attempt to really learn and just forget about it. With the pet store-it is no questions asked, I have to pay a little more but it saves me the embarrasment and frankly, the hassle.
I think I am rambling. I think it is critical for the breeder to be the teacher to the buyer and build a repor that makes them WANT to learn. I believe all of you who are on here are those people. You can, from years of experience, explain the necessity for the tests and proper breeding without being intimidating.
Tanza, you are correct, they can contact puppyfind.com or wherever but that is the difference your call can make to them.
I am a business person and I am amazed that you all breed for love of the breed and not profit. I don't get it. But I admire it.
I hope this makes some sense.
hmmmm….now I am the opposite. I want to find as much info as I can on my own before I approach someone. For one thing, I want to sound like I kinda know what I am talking about...and I want to know enough that I can tell if they are legitimate.
I think it is a little unrealistic to expect that someone you are buying something from...especially a living being, that will be sharing your house for up to 15 years.... is responsible for educating you. To me that seems like the buyer's responsiblity. The seller's responsiblity is to be able to answer your questions to your satisfaction. Same as any business transaction.
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I am also like Andrea, before I make a decision I try to get as much information as possible. I do realize though that many people do not want to spend as much time doing the research. The purpose of a Buyer's Guide is to provide the information in a format that is accessible to the general public. It should be written so that it provides the information at a level that some one interested in a companion can make sense of. Using your example of learning about Space Travel. A scientist writing and article for other scientists will write in a different style and level then a scientist writing an article for the layperson who reads USA Today.
Telling people what questions to ask and giving a list of breeders will not tell them what answers to expect and why. I know people who have dogs who are suffering from genetic disorders who tell me, "I thought I asked the right questions" They did ask if the parents had any known problems and they were told "No, my vet says they are all healthy." They didn't know that they needed to ask for an OFA number, a CERF number, if the dog was strip tested, if the its sire and dam were. So it is not about just asking the questions, it is about knowing what a good answers is, what an ok answer is, and what a bad answer is.
Are there people who won't take the time to do their homework? Of Course! But that does not mean that a Buyer's Guide should not be created and posted so that people can find the information they need to make an educated purchase.
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Lisa, I really like the idea of a buyers guide. If we kept it simple we might be able to post it a lot of different places. And maybe even have hard copies available to breeders so when someone calls interested in puppies we can pop something in the mail to them?
Maybe this is something outreach should work on?
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Good idea!
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Yes it is a good idea for outreach…. but of course someone has to help do the work.... we have not have must support, still trying to get the FAQ's. We have posted on many of the web sites BCOA information for contact about puppies... One problem is a place like puppyfind.com has so many listings.. it is a bit difficult to compete... my personal opinion is that all responsible breeders need to flood those sites... with ads...
Sorry for the post to the Forum on this, as it might not make sense to many of you, but the Basenji Club of America has an Outreach committee to help educate people on Basenjis....
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Yes it is a good idea for outreach…. but of course someone has to help do the work.... we have not have must support, still trying to get the FAQ's. We have posted on many of the web sites BCOA information for contact about puppies... One problem is a place like puppyfind.com has so many listings.. it is a bit difficult to compete... my personal opinion is that all responsible breeders need to flood those sites... with ads...
Sorry for the post to the Forum on this, as it might not make sense to many of you, but the Basenji Club of America has an Outreach committee to help educate people on Basenjis....
(Opps that would be "had MUCH support)
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I don't disagree at all. I will be perfectly honest–please don't hate me. Most people IMO are very "now" people. If they have the choice between going to the pet store and seeing a puppy in the window and saying "oh, how cute, how much--and the pet store tells them 8 bazillion dollars" So then they go and start a search for breeders. If they would find this website and see a daunting list of things they don't really understand they may feel intimidated by their lack of knowledge and not even bother with trying. If you have the same info on the website as the petstore but a contact number as well then you get the oppurtunity as a breeder to really explain what is important. I guess I would compare it to me going to talk to someone about space travel. I know nothing about it so I would be so overwhelmed I would never attempt to really learn and just forget about it. With the pet store-it is no questions asked, I have to pay a little more but it saves me the embarrasment and frankly, the hassle.
I think I am rambling. I think it is critical for the breeder to be the teacher to the buyer and build a repor that makes them WANT to learn. I believe all of you who are on here are those people. You can, from years of experience, explain the necessity for the tests and proper breeding without being intimidating.
Tanza, you are correct, they can contact puppyfind.com or wherever but that is the difference your call can make to them.
I am a business person and I am amazed that you all breed for love of the breed and not profit. I don't get it. But I admire it.
I hope this makes some sense.
Well, I am a business person too, but breeding dogs is NOT a business it is a hobby, pure and simple… that that is way we breed for the love of the breed and not for profit, different then BYB's who claim to breed for the love of the breed, but make a profit... or of course puppymills.. who only breed for profit.
And while we need to teach.... I agree with Andrea and Lisa... the buyer needs to take responsibility for their actions... You are buying a living thing that you will be responsible for life.... why would you not educate yourself on that?... and what kind of pet is the best for your home?.... And yes, these are newer concepts from 30yrs ago... and breeders have learned that screeening buyers is necessary because if you look in some BYB and PM pedigrees your will see Ch stock from well known bloodlines.... As they say, live and learn....
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… the buyer needs to take responsibility for their actions..
Absolutely, but they don't and the dogs may end up in rescue or euthanized which I thought was the point of trying to get them to see as much info as possible prior to making the decision to buy from a pet store or puppyfind. Correct me if I am wrong.
A buyers guide is an excellent idea! Someone can call and then get info that they can read later about what they need to look for so they can ask the right questions.
I also think it is a good idea to advertise on puppyfind.
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Yes it is a good idea for outreach…. but of course someone has to help do the work.... we have not have must support, still trying to get the FAQ's. We have posted on many of the web sites BCOA information for contact about puppies... One problem is a place like puppyfind.com has so many listings.. it is a bit difficult to compete... my personal opinion is that all responsible breeders need to flood those sites... with ads...
Sorry for the post to the Forum on this, as it might not make sense to many of you, but the Basenji Club of America has an Outreach committee to help educate people on Basenjis....
Sorry, Pat…hanging head as an ashamed member of the outreach committee who hasn't yet had a chance to deal with the FAQs. The email kind of fell of my radar, but I will go back and deal with it.
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I'm sorry if I was confusing. The issue with euthanasia, rescue etc is a big problem and educating buyers is critical. I think we would all agree on that.
I am trying to figure out why someone (myself included) would buy from pet stores or puppyfind instead of going to a breeder. I believe it is convenience. So, for the potential buyer who decides to do some research elsewhere that is where I think the breeder can help. Had the breeder I contacted explained something as opposed to just saying-no, I don't have any puppies. Or even the rescue saying the same thing. (I had not heard of BRAT) I probably would have been in a different situation. I didn't know what questions to ask and I personally was bombarded by all the info online. Maybe that is just me but you asked for input from the learning side and I am definatley that.
I shouldn't put the entire burden of education on you, the breeder, that is simply not fair. So I aplogize.
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I'm sorry if I was confusing. The issue with euthanasia, rescue etc is a big problem and educating buyers is critical. I think we would all agree on that.
I am trying to figure out why someone (myself included) would buy from pet stores or puppyfind instead of going to a breeder. I believe it is convenience. So, for the potential buyer who decides to do some research elsewhere that is where I think the breeder can help. Had the breeder I contacted explained something as opposed to just saying-no, I don't have any puppies. Or even the rescue saying the same thing. (I had not heard of BRAT) I probably would have been in a different situation. I didn't know what questions to ask and I personally was bombarded by all the info online. Maybe that is just me but you asked for input from the learning side and I am definatley that.
I shouldn't put the entire burden of education on you, the breeder, that is simply not fair. So I aplogize.
Totally no reason to apologize at all….. I think that the reason that people go to pet stores is because that is how it was done for years and years... same with buying a puppy out of the newspaper. Difference now is that is lots of information on how and why to buy a puppy/companion on the web and easier to find responsible breeders "IF" you are willing to learn first and understand why they ask questions..ggg... and WHY you as the buyer should ask questions... Also I agree there is lots of conflicting information even on line.. that is why people need to take their time... I always recommend that people personally visit with someone that has Basenjis regardless of where they intend to buy. Lisa and I always "swap" people for visits... and because we don't breed often, 99% of the time the people visiting have no expectations of getting a puppy from us, so there is no pressure... just a learning experience.
As far as pet store and even newspaper ads.. I think it is "impluse" buying... I see a cute puppy, I want that cute puppy.... -
Please could you tell me why you do not allow posts in your 'For Sale' forum from outside the US/Canada.
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Hi,
am i correct in thinking that members from other countries cannot inform us if they have Puppies for sale. There are quite a few nationalities on the forum and it seems a shame.
I myself would like eventualy to find a Pup and it would be most helpful to know when litters are planned.
I think that it is a great idea to make people more aware of Dogs needing to be rescued but again maybe UK rescues and rescues in other countries wouldnt be able to use the forum.
I hope you dont think i'm being rude, i love this forum and am just saying whats on my mind. -
If a breeder and or a back yard breeder would all do there job correctly in breeding then the pet store would get a good puppy. Then the new owner would not have to worry.
Like when you buy a new car that has been out in model year for 3 or 4 months DO ANY OF YOU ever ask questions has this car had recalls and how many and what were they? Did you do your homework.
I said this once any place a puppy is bought from or gotten from free or what ever there needs to be a sheet handed to them. On it needs to be problems known and testing, food used what ever. There should be some kind of fines if they do not give this to you. AKC could send sheet about dogs when they send there paperwork. Has anyone ever ask them?
Rita Jean
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Rita Jean wrote…-If a breeder and or a back yard breeder would all do there job correctly in breeding then the pet store would get a good puppy. Then the new owner would not have to worry.
Rita Jean, only puppymills and bad byb sell to pet stores.
Until they are shut down, these poor breeding dogs willl be used until they are warn out and then discarded...
A quality breeder would NEVER sell to a pet store...ever!
I am not trying to be sharp..but quality breeders should never be grouped with byb or puppymillers.. -
@Rita:
AKC could send sheet about dogs when they send there paperwork. Has anyone ever ask them?
Rita Jean
They already do. When I got Liyah's registration papers from the AKC, there was a basenji breed information flyer (Congratulations on Your New Basenji) from the BCOA included in the package. It covers history, care/exercise/training, personality, and health concerns (including Fanconi & the linked marker test).
I got the same sheet when Ruby's registration was changed so I am her owner…that was 1.5 years ago.
