Hey eeeefarm, read that article you shared via link…..very interesting and enlightening! when one reads about spindle cells and the amygdala, one has to consider emotions to some degree in animals across the board! don't know about trees etc....???? 'nother forum ????
Multiple issues with Basenji
-
What methods have you used to train her to accept a crate?
Have you tried feeding Mowgli in a crate? Place her food in the crate and initially don't close the door. Then progress to closing the door. If you feed all of her meals in the crate, it will help her see the crate as a more enjoyable place to be.
We use a metal crate. We started by crating Kipawa with food. Then we progressed to crating him for 2 (yes, 2) minutes while we went out of the house and closed the door. In his crate were some favourite and very safe toys for him to play with. We gradually increased the time, and we are now at a point where he will accept crating for a much lengthier period - the max has been 3 hours. Kipawa still has some anxiety, but it continues to get better.
Please don't give up on Mowgli. Basenjis do require patience, but the reward is huge.
-
To answer some questions that have been posed…we put her in an empty bedroom and for now close the door. We would like to try the baby gate, but are unsure if she could somehow knock it down or get over it.
When we first moved to the farm we didn't give the two Basenjis we had at the time the full run of the house, but confined them to the kitchen and adjacent laundry room area. We tried a small gate, but were concerned they might knock it down or get over it, as you are. We ended up building a "gate" with a wood frame and wire that was about five feet tall, put hinges on it, and ended up with a "door" they could see through. Everyone was happy with this arrangement. Once we were sure the dogs had adjusted to the move, we took down the door, but it served its purpose. (and BTW, the first time we left the girls alone in the new place, somebody attacked the outside door and doorframe…..so just because a dog hasn't previously demonstrated separation anxiety, don't assume it won't, in a new location!)
-
To answer some questions that have been posed…we put her in an empty bedroom and for now close the door. We would like to try the baby gate, but are unsure if she could somehow knock it down or get over it. Although she has never done this in our presence, it appears she is so terribly distraught when left alone, there's no saying what she's capable of. The destruction as of recently has been biting large pieces of wood off the door and window frames, chewing up the blinds and still pooping and peeing on the floor right after being walked (and relieving herself on the walk). Yes, the meds were prescribed as aids to behavior modification. We had worked with a behaviorist to initially get her acclimated to our home and being left alone. Then, this summer her routine was off-set by the fact that my wife is now home more often and we no longer leave/return at the exact same time each day. Mowgli obviously loves our company, so it is likely that the more my wife is home the harder it is for her to cope when left alone. The destruction definitely worsened during the fourth of July when fireworks were being set off all day long in our neighborhood. Until then loud noises didn't seem to bother her.
In the meantime we take her to doggy daycare just so
we can get errands done before the baby arrives and only leave her alone when absolutely necessary. It is expensive though and certainly not a longterm solution. Thanks so much for
all the suggestions. Please keep them coming. This is taking a toll on ALL of us.I tell people that Basenjis are claustrophobic and do not like being in a closed room. Add to the fact that someone is home and they are being BANISHED away from them… sorry, but if I were the dog, I would think the people doing that to me were flat out rude.
I see you are doing other things, but I do not see much training towards acclimation of the dog crate. THAT is what needs to be done.
She can't be trained to be in it if she isn't given ample opportunity to learn it IS a good place and good things DO happen there... FOOD.All of my Basenjis leave my house crate-trained, but when they have any type of issues, it is the owner finds it easier to leave the dog loose... that ends up with major anxiety issues with their Basenji.
I cannot stress enough how important the crate is to a dog and to the entire family. And your friends and neighbors. What will happen when this dog MUST be left with someone in an emergency and it can't be crated?
BTW, I had two Basenjis returned in the month of June, both due to severe family situations.
Dog A. Slept and fed in a crate for it's 18 months and fabulous in the house. Still crate-trained and runs to it when the food bin is rattled. Saving grace for this girl, as I can't have 6 dogs and someone NOT crate-rained.
Dog B. Left at 3 months of age.. returned at 27 months. Never in a crate and feed loose. Overweight. Sweet and good in the house. Would have to throw him in the crate as he would force his legs apart so I could not get him in the crate. One month later, he runs in the crate and waits for his meals.
This dog was an obnoxious mess when he was returned... hated hated hated the crate. Now, he rarely makes a peep when crated.REASON Dog B adapted to the use of a crate? I was persistent and gave him a reason to WANT to be in there. This dog loved to eat [too much] and while he is not 3# thinner, he IS crate-trained.
-
I agree with Kathy- I fully admit the issues I have with Oakley and his crate are MY fault and I also admit me breeder educated me thoroughly about the importance of it… 100% my fault and now, at 8 months I'm fixing it and paying the price- it's harder than it would have been. So many things I will do differently with my second pup!! Nothing like experiencing it the tough way to teach a person
-
Well, we have never left Mowgli in the room while one of us is home. When we are home she has free run of the home. She usually chooses to sleep on the couch, chew bones under the dining room table, go outside in the fenced in backyard (that we constructed basenji-proofed just for her) or follow us around. We rescued her at 15 months. She had been on several meds prior to this and we hoped to ween her completely. Our goal from the start was to crate train her but our highly recommended behaviorist suggested using the room while we attempted training. She suggested that if the room worked out not to worry about the crate, as some dogs simply cannot be crated. Her words, not ours. Since up until recently she had no issues in the room anymore we didn't focus on the crate. Now we realize that the crate is going to have to be the only option and were just looking for advice. We initially worried that she would kill herself in the crate. (She came to us with large gashes in her legs and the tip missing on one of her ears…we can only imagine her past experiences.) When we first
adopted her she wouldn't go in the same room with the crate in it. Now she eats her meals in there, goes in for "get it" treat games and we chain a meat stuffed bone in there (so she cannot grab it and take it elsewhere). She has come a long way already. We were just worried that the crate would only complicate her anxiety and traumatize Her more. We've done a lot
of research and truly everyone has a different opinion. We are just looking for any solid advice, knowing full well it will take even more trial and error. She is an amazing little dog
and we absolutely love her, even with the thousands of dollars worth of destruction and attempted remedies. We genuinely appreciate those of you who know where we are coming
from and have offered suggestions. Thank you very, very much, -
It is good to know there is still hope in crate training and that she can hopefully gain confidence and see her crate as a happy place. Now she just wait (nervously) for the door to close and we havent even gotten to closing it part yet. She is somewhat unpredictable and we will definitely worry that she will do damage to herself should something unexpected happen while she's in there and we are not home (like the fireworks issue or thunderstorms.) I guess that will go away with time?
-
There are things you can get that are called "stress" wraps. They are for dogs who are scared of the thunder and fireworks. Most are almost like an ace bandage that you wrap around the dog. Someway, it gives the stressed animals some type of peace.
-
With consistency and persistence it will… Take it from me, Oakleys injured himself in his crate and I too have spent thousands I'm sure. Just hearing that your dog can do activities without you every minute is a good sign... even with the new baby it will be critical to continue the training and also to spend time with her because transitioning her to the new family dynamic is important and the new " cohesion" of the family unit will likely help training. Truthfully, with the family changing it's a great time for new behaviors etc...
-
I think i'd ask your behaviorist about a DAP and ask about doing Dr Overall's Relaxation protocal while Mowgli is in the crate. I don't think either of those is a solution but perhaps part of the solution. Medication might be necessary while learning a new behavior
good luck -
I would just like to point out that for some dogs being left in a crate with several other dogs also crated within sight or earshot is not the same as being left in a crate when they are totally alone. The anxiety factor is very high for some in this situation, to the point where they may even injure themselves trying to escape confinement. And again, a dog that is calm in his crate (or in the house) in one location may react differently somewhere else, and unless this has been practiced you cannot say with certainty that he will be just fine in new surroundings. JMHO, having seen a few examples of this…..
-
I appreciate that opinion as well. It is our worry and why we are having such a difficult time deciding how to keep her safe when we leave the house. It is tough knowing that we might have to learn the hard way that the crate is not the answer. We sure wish it could work, as the damage in the house has to be contained at some point. We even considered getting her a companion, but obviously with the baby due tomorrow that would have to be something to look into long term. We also have heard that sometimes dogs with anxiety agitate the other dog causing both to act up when left alone?
-
We also have heard that sometimes dogs with anxiety agitate the other dog causing both to act up when left alone?
That is certainly possible. However, my first male had separation anxiety/confinement anxiety, and when we first got him we did crate him, as we weren't comfortable leaving him loose with our girl. We did not crate her, but did confine her to the room he was in. She ignored his antics, but he persistently would rock & roll the crate from one side of the room to another, and destroy anything he could get at. We put that crate inside a larger one for a bit, than worked at making him safe in the house. (we did a lot of role playing…...getting ready to leave, leaving and coming right back or returning via the other door, etc.) In relatively short order he could be trusted to do minimal damage, and we started leaving him loose too.
Have you considered a web cam or baby monitor video cam so that you can see what happens when you leave? Sometimes that can be quite revealing. My guy would invariably do his evil deed immediately after we left, then settle down and be fine until we returned (unless we ran too close to his meal time.....he would get restless if he was getting hungry and his "staff" hadn't gotten back to make his dinner!:D )
He never destroyed anything important except for one of my husband's shoes that he totally ate.....except for the sole! Well, he and I had a serious discussion about that shoe, and that was the end of his destructive ways except for a token piece of paper he would rip and leave on the couch for me to find. I would verbally chastise him for the rippage. My husband said, "why bother" and I said, because if I don't "notice" it he will escalate.....and I am sure he would have. He was giving me the finger for going out, and needed me to acknowledge it. I know people who say don't attribute human motivations to dogs, but I figure they don't know Basenjis.
By the way, I think it is absolutely key to not make a big deal of coming and going when you have this problem. Our current dog seldom even gets off the couch when we come home, and even if he does I do not immediately return his greeting. I keep things absolutely low key.
-
When I leave mine they are loose in two rooms of the house -admittedly there are several of them. I've found that playing a CD 'Relaxation Music for your Dog' certainly helps to keep them calm. I set it on repeat at a reasonable level. I got the CD from Dogwise. It is published by Omnibus Media www.musicsales.com and the composer isHiroki Sakaguchi. Worth a try and its not expensive.
-
I've found that playing a CD 'Relaxation Music for your Dog' certainly helps to keep them calm.
Your dogs are lucky. Mine has to put up with whatever is on the CBC! (but I always do leave the radio on for him)
-
So during this crate training process when is it ok to close the door? I feel Mowgli will be onto us once the door is shut and then be even tougher to coax in the next time. I get that we should start out with very short increments of her being in the crate with the door closed, but how do we know she's ready? I also understand that we should be not open the crate until she's calm, but will she actually sit quietly when she sees us right there? I guess this is more geared toward B owners who have dealt with severe separation anxiety. As you have experienced, it is a challenging and painful issue to deal with on it's own, made even more complex with now trying to make an already anxious
dog comfortable being alone in a new, smaller space where she will not get to watch squirrels out the window or roam at all. -
So during this crate training process when is it ok to close the door?
That is something that's hard to say. You need to assess how she is feeling. I would definitely not close it until she seems relaxed. Even better if she is occupied with something…..chewing a bone or a toy......and then make it very brief. With an anxious dog, I might work on using the crate as "place" or "mat", as in go to your place and stay there until released, then gradually build the time without actually locking her in. I find this similar to teaching a horse to load in a trailer. If you're smart, you won't force them to stay on until they are comfortable.
Like most things in training, it takes a long time at the start, but once you begin to make progress it often comes quite quickly. Build the time in there gradually, and when you start locking her in and leaving her alone try to make sure she has something to occupy her time. When you let her out, don't reward her. Put the reward in the crate so she has to go back in to get it.
-
I have two things to add. Tucker was the same way. Hated crating unless in the car. Never bothered to crate train him. My solution was to throw caution to the wind and allow him free roam of the house and it worked for me. He never peed or pooped or scratched at anything again. Some dogs just need to be free within the confines of the same area their humans are. The more space he was allowed, the more at ease he was. We lived in a 950 SQFT condo and he still peed every now and again, but there was always a change - like being left with a house sitter for a weekend associated with it. Now we are in a substantially larger house and he's never engaged in 'spiteful peeing'.
I had other issues with Tucker and if you follow anything I've ever written, then you know what they are. I trained Tucker to wear an Italian Basket Muzzle. It took maybe a week to do and within a month, he had no more issues with the muzzle than he does with a collar - which is NIL - no issues at all. I go through about 2 muzzles every 3 months because he scratches his face like any dog would, but there is a muzzle there now. He eventually shaves a lot of the plastic off and they'll weaken and break. I just switch it out with a fresh one. At $15 bucks a muzzle for the protection it provides (re: biting), it's worth the cost.
I have been forced to crate him from time to time. He stripped two METAL bars off of a crate when left for a few hours while we were at a B&B that allowed pets as long as they were crated when you left the room. Broke the welds and stripped them right off the inside of the metal door.
-
Well, as an update, we decided crate training is the only option, as Mowgli tends to be too mischievous to be left alone to roam. The training has gone at a very slow pace and we still take her to doggy daycare if we are going to be gone for awhile. Today we left a mat in there with her and she tore it up, completely ignoring a peanut butter and meat stuffed bone. For those of you who had to crate train anxious dogs, did you continue to leave your dog in the crate each day despite destruction in the crate? Back to trying to figure out something to leave in her crate for her to rest on when she settles down. Any suggestions? We are also still interested in trying the "thunder shirt," but have not yet. On a good note, she loves the baby and gives her lots of unsolicited kisses!
-
My last two boys have had issues with separation anxiety and confinement anxiety. We used the crate initially, but as quickly as we could worked at getting them reliable enough in the house to leave loose. The first boy we did limit where he could go in the house, the current one has free run of the place and has earned our trust. I find leaving for very brief periods and building the time gradually helps, as does giving the dog a "project", such as a roller ball or similar, helps a lot. For some reason, being outside the crate is calming to my guy. I hadn't heard of the thundershirt, but it looks interesting…..
-
Do you feed Mowgli in her crate? I find that this helps tremendously and I only use the crate to feed and while I am gone.
Jennifer
