Congrats to Maya, she looks lovely. And her pups are adorable!!!
Pups :-)
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Sharron, equally important, it doesn't matter. Because others do irresponsible doesn't make someone else okay. If you can't afford to do the testing, don't breed. End of subject.
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- why are you not asking similarly hard and public questions of other breeders who have bred their dogs (100% out of Africa imports, domestic and/or blends) but did not or worse, continue to not have test results (at least not public ones therefore one can only assume a) they were not done or b) the results were not favorable) of health issues such as hips, eyes, thyroids? Why are they not continually asked where their test results are? Why did they breed their untested or not fully tested dogs?
Where are their tsks, tsks? Or are those only reserved for people who are not actively participating in these venues or less respected and therefore less apt to matter if we hurt their feelings or continue to cut them down?
- Who said that questions are not being asked of any breeder, Af imports or Domestic. Are any of those breeders on this forum? Have you not seen questions to breeders here about testing? Or to buyers about the testing from their breeder? I think that many on here have and do ask other breeders about their testing and that many of the breeders post links or test results for planned litters.
And remember the reason that RMH is not participating on this forum is because of her behavior leading to her removal as a member. It was Kathy that brought up the subject these imports and we all responded with questions about the reason of this post. Was it campaigning because these imports will be put up for inclusion to the stud books or is she trying to sell these dogs?
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I don't know who Linda is talking about, but I want to share that the folks who went over from the Evergreen basenji club, James Johanna's group have done all the testing on all the dogs they brought over. Even color testing was done on my Wheat as well as all the other tests and of course, fanconi that's how we know she is a carrier. As she was deemed NOT to be an asset to the breed, we have spayed her and she is my beloved companion. We didn't just decide to breed or not breed these dogs. We went to last years National and had several old time breeders go over these dogs. Wheat was not chosen, which is fine with me. I am just saying, if you have the $$ go to Africa, put some $$ back to test on everything before any puppies are produced.
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It is clearly stated in the Basenji Standard, which is the official description of what a Basenji is, where the white should be, and that the the white should not predominate the color. So, although some people may like the the look of it (and that is FINE) it *is a fault according to our standard. But it is ONLY a fault…not a disqualification, nor an indication that the dog is not a purebred.
Andrea: I'm only speaking from the viewpoint of the dog's looks. My B is not a show dog, or even registered, so I know nothing about the standards for showing - I simply like the looks of the puppies in the pictures.
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These puppies ARE very cute. I doubt anyone would say different. I don't think that is what the concern is….
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Kathy,
I don't think anyone is going to say that these pups do not possess Basenji type, they do. The problem that many people have is that they came from an area where the majority of dogs do not possess Basenji type. (I saw tons of photos taken by Rose Marie of dogs she encountered while she was in Benin.) Rose Marie did not go into areas where dogs would have been less likely to have been crossed with other breeds but instead chose dogs from this populated area. (One of Rose Marie's imports, Chere, has an atypical double coat with fringe on her ears and breeches. Another one of her imports, Fuzzy I think, has wire hair.) So, while the two dogs pictured look like pure Basenjis, they are not.That said, and I am probably going to take some flack for this, I am not as purist as some people. I feel that if a dog possesses strong Basenji type, it could potentially add something to the gene pool. If an unregistered dog is bred and the offspring possesses strong Basenji type, and the resulting offspring breed true for another 2-3 generations, then perhaps back-registration should be granted. (As was done with the import Esenjo.)
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Robyn, I liked your post.
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Sorry about the delay in getting back to this thread, I am at an agility trial in NM. Excuse the all in one response - it's easier doing it this way via my iPhone.
Yes, Debra - shame on me for not sharing the names of breeders on this forum who are breeding or have bred but not doing as much public testing as some feel they should - esp when there are/where known issues behind the dogs being bred and/or they are foundation stock. Sorry - I do not feel it is my job to out them. This info is easy enough to research via OFA.
Yes, Pat you and a few others certainly do jump in and question "breeders" via this forum - granted they are mostly unknown backyard breeders in which the poor unsuspecting pet owners get an earful for not being more discerning in their choices vs actually confronting the breeders head on. Oh wait very few if any are on this forum or if they are, are brave enough to post.
As for Marie getting kicked off this list and unable to reply - all the more reason to continue to discuss her as though she does not exist, right? Wrong.
IMO she had every reason to defend herself as she did. And actually Debra - Marie has been pretty open/honest about her mental health issues, so I imagine she would be the first to admit she was in a bad state of mind when much of this went down.
Did not seem to stop folks from continuing their negativity against her even knowing this.Thankfully she is on a good treatment protocol and is amazingly in a good state of mind, so much so that she was asked to join the BCOA Health & Research Committee this year. She has been a real asset and real team player even before being asked to join.
Absolutely Sharron, the Ntomba imports and importers have gone above and beyond testing IMO, much like many of the Avongara importers. I have had nothing but positives to say about the Ntomba imports as I have said on several occasions.
Since Marie is not on this forum to be able to reply and she is the best person anyone should be getting their facts from and not via a forum - I suggest anyone interested to contact her. Or first - visit this link to learn more then contact her if interested:
http://basenji-freunde.com/my_journey_to_benin_an_interview.htm
As for why Kathy posted these pics - a) who cares b) whose business is it why anyone posts anything c) why the implication (and third degree) there is any ulterior motives other than she likes what she saw then and now and wanted to share.
Seems crooked people see crooked things, even when the line is straight. Does not mean the line isn't straight.
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Linda, for most of the folks here–- pet owners, not breeders--- and breeders here advertising their dogs, yes, shame on breeders here for not questioning them about breeding or known issues. As you well know, even checking on OFA (which many pet owners won't know to do), many genetic and other issues may be KNOWN to you breeders that an unsuspecting owner wouldn't. Do you really think the breeder of my dogs has informed those with her line about the massive PPR, autoimmune and CUPS? Of course not.
As for Marie, since I am on no other list, I had no idea of her mental health. I respond only to what is written.
I hope to hell you weren't including me in that CROOKED comment. I certainly was seeing nothing crooked.
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See comment below
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Yes, Pat you and a few others certainly do jump in and question "breeders" via this forum - granted they are mostly unknown backyard breeders in which the poor unsuspecting pet owners get an earful for not being more discerning in their choices vs actually confronting the breeders head on. Oh wait very few if any are on this forum or if they are, are brave enough to post.
And you have not made comments? Glad that you have set everyone straight or have rewritten history
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Debra, if I were to see a post asking about a particular breeder or health result I knew was not being forthright or has not been tested, then I would contact the poster privately to point them in the right direction, as I have done in the past. *
And no, you are not the least bit crooked. You are a rare straight shooter which is highly refreshing (weird- when I typed a rare s on the iPhone it typed anrares (an n for the space which I miss hit all the time) and it autocorrected to Antares - twilight music).*
No Pat, I don't believe I have ever given a new owner an earful for where/who they got their pup from; if I have, shame on me because what I have witnessed on the forum time and again borders on potentially cyber abusive (IMO) and I would hate to be a party to it.
"Glad that you have set everyone straight or have rewritten history."*
Sorry? - does not compute.*
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Linda, let me ask you. Have you met or discussed basenjis and ethics with the breeder that is being discussed? I have. I have met her personally and several times at EBC basenji matches. If you have not had that pleasure, then really, your discussions are in the abstract. IMO.
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"Glad that you have set everyone straight or have rewritten history."*
Sorry? - does not compute.*
No surprise there
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Sharron - are you asking have I met Marie? Yes, I have. Basenjis have been discussed. I have read what she writes to the various lists over the past several years. Was ethics discussed? No more than would be discussed with any one person who is not a close friend or whose breeding program is being researched.
You're right Pat, it is no surprise at all that I don't understand what you say. It's to be expected, I guess 'cuz when I ask for clarification, none is forthcoming so I am always left to ponder.
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Debra, if I were to see a post asking about a particular breeder or health result I knew was not being forthright or has not been tested, then I would contact the poster privately to point them in the right direction, as I have done in the past. *
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Well, hopefully, you would contact the breeder (particularly a BCOA breeder) to get the facts straight before you would spread any information that you had gotten second or third hand? I mean, sending someone to the OFA site is one thing, insinuating that you know what is going through someone's mind based on their testing history is quite another.
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Here are pictures from the WVBC Af Match held last Friday. Link is from James E Johannes
http://www.dibubasenjis.com/willamette11.htm
And here are the results that he also posted
Puppy Dogs 1/2 to 3/4 African
1st and Best Khani's Piano Man
2nd Khani's My Name is PainPuppy Bitches 1/2 to 3/4 African
1st Khani's Dirty Little GirlPuppy Bitches Full African
1st and BOS Avuvi Cinnamon o AkweAdult Dogs Full African
1st and Best Ntomba Mosika
2nd Ntomba Mobengi
3rd Avivi Apollo CalypsoAdult Bitch 1/2 to 3/4 African
1st and BOS FC Kinetic-Tanza Soul Music, SC, FCh, GRC, JORAdult Bitches Full Afircan
1st Avuvi Djodougbe
2nd Avuvi Minhoudo
3rd Avuvi Miflissor -
Thank you for posting this.
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How are the dogs selected to be brought over from Africa? Is it a group of "experts" choosing or just an individual going over and buying the dogs they like?
Without wishing to cause any offence (sorry if I do!!), some on that link have little or no resemblance to a basenji from what I can see…...??
Its not something we are able to do here as any imports to be registered with the UK kennel club have to be registered with another kennel club first, but I do find it interesting.
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How are the dogs selected to be brought over from Africa? Is it a group of "experts" choosing or just an individual going over and buying the dogs they like?
Without wishing to cause any offence (sorry if I do!!), some on that link have little or no resemblance to a basenji from what I can see…...??
Its not something we are able to do here as any imports to be registered with the UK kennel club have to be registered with another kennel club first, but I do find it interesting.
Usually it is a group of Basenji Fanciers that have been in the breed for a long time that go and choose. But not always. It is usually pups that are brought back and granted they don't all mature to have Basenjis Type. That is why they are then put up for evaluation to a panel that includes a long time Basenji Breeder, AKC Judge, etc. Once those evaluations are completed they are submitted to the Board of the Basenji Club of America and if accepted by the board, proposed to the membership for a vote.
As I have stated in the past, I think that the area they come from needs to be considered and the access of that area to other types of dogs that may be in that particular gene pool. Remote as possible is best, IMO. Some of the places that some of the imports have come from, IMO are not remote and way to easily accessed by both humans and animals.
I think that we have had some really great imports and that they have really been a plus to the gene pool. Others, not so much
