Dew C;aws

[basi]

@tanza:

So, here is a question… what are the rules regarding dogs that have cropped ears and/or tails for showing in Europe if they come from the US? For some reason I seem to remember hearing that they can not show in some parts of Europe? Or all parts? While I do not like ear or tail cropping and glad that our breed is not cropped, I wonder since it is still common practice in the US what happens if they (or can they) go to Europe to show.

And I agree, I think the leg looks much cleaner without the dew claws... again, that is personal opinion.... I could deal with it either way, but prefer having them off.

I can only speak for Germany but you can't show a dog that has had it's ears cropped and only dogs that are used for hunting in accordance with German law for the protection of animals, can be shown with docked tails.

[JISGARD]

@noodle:

I had my puppies dew claws removed at 4 days old. Unfortunatley, the vet went in too deep with one of them. As a concequence the toe next to where the dew claw would have been did not grow correctly. It was a complete nightmare, caused many sleepless nights and ruined a potential show dog. I have to say I have learned a lesson the hard way and will not be having them removed again.

Poppy still has hers and I do not think they detract in any way, we as most breeders in the past used to remove them ourselves from our litters, but I would not do it again if we every bred in the future.

The main problem I have seen with them is where they have not been cut deep enough leaving part of the joint.

[Borbasuk]

You can't show cropped dogs, full stop. The rules for docked dogs are a little complex so I pulled this off the KC website:

Docked Dogs

Dogs which were docked before 6th April 2007 (28th March for shows held in Wales)

If your dog was docked either in the UK or in a foreign country before 6th April 2007 (28th March for shows in Wales) then it may compete at all Kennel Club licensed events.

Dogs which were docked on or after 6th April 2007 (28th March for shows held in Wales).

If your dog was docked on or after 6th April 2007 (28th March for shows held in Wales and irrespective of where it was docked) it will not, under the law, be permitted to be shown at any show in England or Wales where the public are admitted on payment of a fee.

However, if your dog was legally docked either in the UK or in another country on or after 28th March/6th April 2007, you will be permitted to compete with it at:

(a) all shows held in Scotland

(b) all shows held in Northern Ireland

those shows held in England and Wales where the public do not pay to be admitted.

Shows where the public are admitted on payment of a fee

All shows which charge the public for admission must state this on the show schedule and entry form - but you should check carefully whether or not your dog is eligible before entering.

[Borbasuk]

@JISGARD:

The main problem I have seen with them is where they have not been cut deep enough leaving part of the joint.

I haven't had this happen to me but have heard from others that have. One of mine has a very long and wide scar from pad to pastern joint, fortunately on dark skin and it doesn't show.

I am actually very much against dew claw removal being banned, not because of anything to do with Basenjis or the show ring, but because I remember my neighbour asking me to go round and cut her Shih Tzu's nails when her vet (not mine I am pleased to say) who usually did them was on vacation. I asked if she had dew claws; Debbie said no. Well, I looked, and not only did she have them but they had grown right round into her leg. It was one thing that the owner hadn't noticed that she had dew claws. That the vet she had been paying large wodges of cash to cut the nails for her hadn't noticed either was really rather shocking.

[Lovelace]

I didn't even think to look? Any idea what dogs have them for? Probably for holding prey in the wild?

[tanza]

I totally agree about long haired dogs and dew claws… people don't even look or check them... and there are so many stories about them growing around and back into the leg.... at least on a short haired dog you can see them...

[Patty]

In my opinion it is cruel to remove the toe. I have never removed my dog's dewclaws and never will as they are a useful appendage to them when holding anything (such as bones). When running flat out they go down onto that toe (remember that it is not just a claw that is removed but the whole toe). I can appreciate that if the nails were not cut there is a possibility that they would grow too long but have never experienced that. The same is true of the other nails they could cause a painful foot were they not clipped.

It is a painful procedure (my vet who is also an experienced breeder of once normally docked dogs tells me that it is more painful than docking the tail). I would never put my puppies through the experience.

In my years of showing I have never had a judge comment on the dew claws and my dogs have not knowingly been penalised.

They have always lived quite a natural life and travelled through all sorts of terrains (including dense bush and forests) without any damage.

I appreciate that many have different opinons and it would seem that in the USA it is the norm as it is in the UK to have the dew claws removed. I think that our KC may be on the way to banning the removal of dew claws which seems to me is a logical move since they have banned tail docking.

I have had one instance of a damaged dew claw but also my present old bitch has only three toes on her hind leg because she badly injured it while climbing a 6 foot panel.

[tasha]

@basi:

They do feel it but it doesn't last long.
IMO it is much kinder for them at 3 days to have them removed rather them tear them while an adult and have them removed and try to heal.

Amen to that!

Our dog Buddy who is an all American mutt kept ripping his nails off of his dew claws and the vet finally said 'let's just remove them'. Not only were all those incidents painful for him, having them removed was very hard on him. It was painful and after the bandages came off you could tell that he was a very sad that his toes were gone.

Corky on the other hand came from a pet shop who got him from a byb, still has his.

Before anyone slams me, we are reformed and have fostered puppies and made up for our pet shop buying mistakes.

[agilebasenji]

Of course I have told people that the real reason for removing basenjis' thumbs is so that they don't learn to use power tools.

[etzbseder]

Haha, that would make sense. Another reason would be to keep them from manipulating carabiners, and to get at all the toilette paper, and unmentionables.

[renaultf1]

@agilebasenji:

Of course I have told people that the real reason for removing basenjis' thumbs is so that they don't learn to use power tools.

Brilliant!!!! Ha, ha, ha…now that I can see...geez, just what I'd need around here. :D:D:D
...And then what mess would I come home to? :eek:

[tanza]

@agilebasenji:

of course i have told people that the real reason for removing basenjis' thumbs is so that they don't learn to use power tools.

exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[nkjvcjs]

@agilebasenji:

Re performance dogs and removal of dewclaws:

Digital, my brindlewonderkid, had his removed. He is 12.5 years old and still active in agility. (although now he is doing a lower jump height) I would guess I've averaged about a weekend a month at an agility trial for the last 10 years. (yes, 10 years, i can hardly believe it myself, but we did start competing in 99.) Add to that training time (which has slowed over the past few years). And he has been an active coursing dog (muliple best in field dog). In fact, he and Jet the tri-ing ran Mother's Day weekend. Sort of a second puppyhood if you will. He ran twice, enjoyed himself and the next day he was out in the yard playing with the malinois. I expected to see some stiffness, but no. I also ran him one fun run in Shawnee 3 or 4 weeks ago. Both coursing and agility put a lot of strain on the pasterns and I haven't seen any sign of soreness or arthritis in Digital or Jet.

<snip>

based on my own dogs, I'd have say removing the dewclaws has NOT be detremental to their performance.</snip>

Thank you so much.

This is exactly what I wanted to hear!

Love the comment on the power tools too.

And you have a mal! I grew up with a Tervuren. We had her for 13 years.

-Nicole

[basenji_fan]

@tanza:

So, here is a question… what are the rules regarding dogs that have cropped ears and/or tails for showing in Europe if they come from the US? For some reason I seem to remember hearing that they can not show in some parts of Europe? Or all parts? While I do not like ear or tail cropping and glad that our breed is not cropped, I wonder since it is still common practice in the US what happens if they (or can they) go to Europe to show.

And I agree, I think the leg looks much cleaner without the dew claws... again, that is personal opinion.... I could deal with it either way, but prefer having them off.

For some breeds that are common to crop they won't be cropped (Great Dane, Boxer, Doberman, Boston Terrier, Miniature Pincher) if they are going to European breeders/show homes families. You don't do their ears until 12-16 weeks anyway so then you have an idea of show quality at the time. For tail docking…..well that's done at like 2-3 DAYS old and most countries you can show the dog except as noted below

@basi:

I can only speak for Germany but you can't show a dog that has had it's ears cropped and only dogs that are used for hunting in accordance with German law for the protection of animals, can be shown with docked tails.

It actually depends on the "type" of show, wither is a national or international show, I can't remember which on it is, (guessing the national) but the International shows you can show a cropped/docked breed. Like a Doberman, Great Dane, Boxer,Boston Terrier, Miniature Pincher one of those breeds. I know Germany went away from the crop/dock awhile ago but other countries is just a few yrs ago; those still let you show however with cropped/docked animals. You probably won't see them at the shows (especially with the crop) but I saw a few docks.

[curlytails]

I was going to start a new thread asking how common it was for dew claws to be removed w/ basenjis, but I did a search instead and found this old thread. I find the division of opinions interesting.

Our shiba still has his dew claws and he uses them regularly – he often uses them to scratch his own muzzle, very gently and deftly. The guy who organizes shiba rescue around here told us that dogs without dew claws often come from puppy mills. The rationale, as he explained it, was that millers didn't want their dogs to accidentally rip off their toes as they were often kept in wire cages.

I still don't know where our B came from, and was curious if the absence of her dew claws would offer any hints. Now I see that this is inconclusive evidence.

[tanza]

@curlytails:

The guy who organizes shiba rescue around here told us that dogs without dew claws often come from puppy mills. The rationale, as he explained it, was that millers didn't want their dogs to accidentally rip off their toes as they were often kept in wire cages..

Well that is the most "interesting" comment that I have ever heard about Dew Claws….. I have never known a puppymiller to put out the extra expense or a BYB to have dew claws removed.... what a crock that is.... for the USA

Qualify that with in Europe, it is fairly normal in many countries that Dew Claws are not removed....

[lvoss]

@curlytails:

I still don't know where our B came from, and was curious if the absence of her dew claws would offer any hints. Now I see that this is inconclusive evidence.

If you want to try to find out where your girl might have come from, why not bring her to the BCONC puppy match on June 6th in Livermore, CA. There will be many basenji people including breeders there. Maybe someone will recognize her.

[curlytails]

It's just what I've been told.

My assumption was that no 'expense' was incurred because it was treated as a relatively simple in-house procedure. Kind of like the hideous 'ear cropping' jobs that are rendered to BYB pit bulls. (ETA: That is, an in-house procedure in the situations that this person was telling me about, not generally across the board – I realize it's a standard practice in some places/among some breeds, and is properly done with professional veterinary assistance.)

[curlytails]

lvoss, thanks for the suggestion! I would be quite surprised if she was recognized, but it's always a possibility. You basenji folks seem to be very aware of who's who around your parts. I've never been to a dog show – it's definitely not my partner's thing, but I would consider it. At any rate, it's not super pressing for me to really trace where she came from (unless her Fanconi tests do turn out to be bad... I would want to hunt down and yell at her breeder). But in my moments of marveling at this special little creature, I can't help but wonder.

[tanza]

@curlytails:

lvoss, thanks for the suggestion! I would be quite surprised if she was recognized, but it's always a possibility. You basenji folks seem to be very aware of who's who around your parts. I've never been to a dog show – it's definitely not my partner's thing, but I would consider it. At any rate, it's not super pressing for me to really trace where she came from (unless her Fanconi tests do turn out to be bad... I would want to hunt down and yell at her breeder). But in my moments of marveling at this special little creature, I can't help but wonder.

It is not really a dog show, it is more a day of fun with puppies. Also there will be a Club Meeting, pot luck lunch and lure coursing…. and the more the merrier....