Did she always have them or did they start after something/some time? Do antihistamines clear the problem?
Preserving Founders and Population Genetics
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Here is the link to Sally's site
http://www.pedigrees.zandebasenjis.com/ -
This is so cool!!! Thanks Lisa for explaining it all so clearly. Ruby's tail line is back to Amatangazig (neat to see her pic). Brando's tail line is back to Moko (no pic unfortunately). So neat to see pictures of the dogs way back.
Actually, there was another thing that I never noticed before about Ruby's pedigree and that is that she's related to Nate (Akuaba's Tornado)…not sure how I had missed that (Ruby's registered name on her AKC paperwork is Eldorado N Akuaba's Bejeweled).
Sally's site is such a wealth of info! It was especially cool checking the tail lines for me as Ruby is from the US, but Brando is from Finland...so it was cool to look at his pedigree...and I had never done it past the regular 5 levels.
Thanks Lisa!!!
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Just want to clarify. At Sally's web page you follow the bitches links back by way of clicks to the bottom most bitch on the page for the tail lines? Studs, only the top most link?
Clarification on one other thing please,Ivoss…..(previous post by Ivoss)...."Some of these dogs still have descendants just not tail lines, some founders we have lost all together." Where's the difference between 'a descendant of', and 'the loss of' a tail line in the documents at Sally's site? I'm not sure what I'm looking at in that respect . Thanks in advance for indulging this particular 'ignorant but trying to educate myself' pet owner.:D
BTW, thanks to those here that posted this thread and it's follow-up posts. That's why I came here to the forums to begin with. To learn and share.
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LOL, okay so I've traced back lineage through the years to unknown African on the whole pedigree, but it still means nothing to me.
ha haI guess I don't "get" what the "tail line" is - I mean, ultimately they are ALL from an unknown African. Is it a matter of how many generations back?
Maybe it's lack of sleep, but I just don't get it. Thank God I'm not a breeder.
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The last dog on the bottom and top of the pedigree BEFORE it says "unknown african dog" is the original founder that your dog is descended from.
On Roo's mother's side, he goes back to Amatangazig, which means that Roo is related to Ruby (owned by renaultf1) distantly, anyway!
It's really quite cool.
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Okay, BUT…. aren't they ALL traceable eventually back to a founder dog? So... how is a "tail line" lost?
Or is it a matter of the number of degrees between current and unknown?{Geez, am I just particularly stupid?}
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Okay, it appears that BOTH of my dogs come from Tango {and N'Gashi} at the bottom of their pedigree and BOTH come via Kindu {and Kasenyi} at the top.
Interesting to me because, although I know they are related on the dam side, Keoki's sire came from Australia.
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A bit of spam got in there I think.
Anyway what a cool site (Sally's) - I traced EL D back (a long way) to founders Amantagazig and Wau. Interesting to see the pictures - I can see where he gets his chunkiness from.
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A question to the breeders on the forum…
I notice that reading through the African stock project pages that some of the original Basenjis seem to be taller than the current. I wanted to get some opinions from those of you actively breeding as to what your thoughts are on this area. I see that the standard places the Basenji at 16 to 17 inches. Do you as breeders feel this represents the traditional height of Basenjis or do you feel that breeders over the years have tended towards the smaller stature. In the original news post from 1937 the author lists Basenjis as the same size and stature as the Samoyed and the Norwegian Elkhound. This seems at odds with both the standard for Basenjis as well as my personal experience with American Basenjis, as both the Samoyed and the Norwegian Elkhound stand at 18-21 inches.
Have we in your opinions selected for the smaller spectrum of these dogs over the years, and as we get more bloodlines of newer imports into the genetic mix, will we continue to look for smaller dogs, or will larger Basenjis still be incorporated if they are over 17 inches?
Ultimately as breeders I am also wondering how high up in the requirements for breeding stock you place the height of the dog.
Thank you so much for indulging my curiosity.
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A question to the breeders on the forum…
I notice that reading through the African stock project pages that some of the original Basenjis seem to be taller than the current. I wanted to get some opinions from those of you actively breeding as to what your thoughts are on this area. I see that the standard places the Basenji at 16 to 17 inches. Do you as breeders feel this represents the traditional height of Basenjis or do you feel that breeders over the years have tended towards the smaller stature. In the original news post from 1937 the author lists Basenjis as the same size and stature as the Samoyed and the Norwegian Elkhound. This seems at odds with both the standard for Basenjis as well as my personal experience with American Basenjis, as both the Samoyed and the Norwegian Elkhound stand at 18-21 inches.
Have we in your opinions selected for the smaller spectrum of these dogs over the years, and as we get more bloodlines of newer imports into the genetic mix, will we continue to look for smaller dogs, or will larger Basenjis still be incorporated if they are over 17 inches?
Ultimately as breeders I am also wondering how high up in the requirements for breeding stock you place the height of the dog.
Thank you so much for indulging my curiosity.
Remember we have no DQ for size, the standard is (IMO) from an average… not a limit. We alreaday have ones bigger (and smaller) both in dogs and bitches. I doubt that any new import from Africia that applies for acceptance into the stub book would be discounted just because of size.
And if you have ever seen Veronica Tudor-William's Basenjis, The Barkless Dog first published in 1946, the size is of the dogs were 16 to 17 on the average.
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A question to the breeders on the forum…
I notice that reading through the African stock project pages that some of the original Basenjis seem to be taller than the current. I wanted to get some opinions from those of you actively breeding as to what your thoughts are on this area. I see that the standard places the Basenji at 16 to 17 inches. Do you as breeders feel this represents the traditional height of Basenjis or do you feel that breeders over the years have tended towards the smaller stature. In the original news post from 1937 the author lists Basenjis as the same size and stature as the Samoyed and the Norwegian Elkhound. This seems at odds with both the standard for Basenjis as well as my personal experience with American Basenjis, as both the Samoyed and the Norwegian Elkhound stand at 18-21 inches.
Have we in your opinions selected for the smaller spectrum of these dogs over the years, and as we get more bloodlines of newer imports into the genetic mix, will we continue to look for smaller dogs, or will larger Basenjis still be incorporated if they are over 17 inches?
Ultimately as breeders I am also wondering how high up in the requirements for breeding stock you place the height of the dog.
Thank you so much for indulging my curiosity.
Remember we have no DQ for size, the standard is (IMO) from an average… not a limit. We alreaday have ones bigger (and smaller) both in dogs and bitches. I doubt that any new import from Africia that applies for acceptance into the stub book would be discounted just because of size.
And if you have ever seen Veronica Tudor-William's Basenjis, The Barkless Dog first published in 1946, the size is of the dogs were 16 to 17 on the average.
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Thanks Pat,
I almost included in my post that I know we don't have a DQ for size.
In your opinion is the size of a dog or bitch completely inconsequential to breeding as long as the body conformation is there (And of course HEALTH and temperament)?Also What is the tallest/shortest dog that you yourself have bred. Just as a curiosity.
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I see that the standard places the Basenji at 16 to 17 inches.
The actual wording in the standard describes height as a single point. Females 16 inches at the withers. Males 17 inches at the withers.
The rule of thumb that I was always told, by many long time fanciers is that most breeders aim for being within +/- 1 inch of that mark. So for females that would be 15-17 inches and males 16-18 inches. I think we drift in that range quite a bit sometimes tending toward larger, sometimes smaller.
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The actual wording in the standard describes height as a single point. Females 16 inches at the withers. Males 17 inches at the withers.
The rule of thumb that I was always told, by many long time fanciers is that most breeders aim for being within +/- 1 inch of that mark. So for females that would be 15-17 inches and males 16-18 inches. I think we drift in that range quite a bit sometimes tending toward larger, sometimes smaller.
Thank you Lisa that makes good sense to me.
I was wondering also what the percentage (if known) of Congo dogs to Sudan dogs are in the American bloodlines. I notice that, traditionally, the Sudanese dogs seem to be of a smaller build than the dogs from the Congo region. Does this account for some of the size differences we see in American Basenjis. I know I have allot of questions today, but I am trying to expand my understanding of the different bloodlines that make up our wonderful dogs.
Thank you all for bearing with me as all these questions pop up.
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I don't know the percentages and am not sure if anyone has compiled that data.
Using my dogs and their lines as an example though, I think that there are many factors that influence the range of size we see. My dogs all go back to Kenset dogs for at least half of their pedigree. Nicky, my male, is about 17 1/8 inches tall at the withers. Rally is just shy of 16 1/2 inches, Rio is 16 1/2 inches, and Sophie is just shy of 16 3/4 inches. The male siblings of Rio and Sophie are all somewhere in the 17 1/2 to 17 3/4 range last I saw them.
Now this year, I leased a girl, whose pedigree is also heavily Kenset. TC is closer to 15 1/2 inches tall. So are most of the girls in her breeder's house, and all of them are at least 50% Kenset in pedigree. Most of the boys she has run tall, close to 18 inches.
So even in the same lines you can get differences that I think are influenced by breeder selection. Tomorrow we will find out if TC is pregnant, if she is, I would expect that the pups will all grow to be within that +/- 1 inch of the standard but it will be interesting to see how their heights turn out as adults.
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Thanks Pat,
I almost included in my post that I know we don't have a DQ for size.
In your opinion is the size of a dog or bitch completely inconsequential to breeding as long as the body conformation is there (And of course HEALTH and temperament)?Also What is the tallest/shortest dog that you yourself have bred. Just as a curiosity.
The tallest, I think would be Tego, who is 17 1/2 (male) and the smallest would be Tiba (bitch) just at 15 1/4. I don't think that size is totally inconsequential and should consider in your "idea" of the perfect Basenji when breeding… but a decision, all others being equal would not just rest on size. And you have to take into account family lines on size, as I would think twice breeding two dogs from lines that either always breed big or small.
My Jamari (male) is to the small side at 16 3/4, so I would not breed him to a line that typically had Basenjis to the small side...
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I think this thread may be a little old- but I just stumbled upon it & I am fascinated. Never heard the term "tail line" until today.
So, if I understand correctly, you trace the male & female tail lines, basically by clicking the uppermost or bottom-most link in the 5-gen pedigree?
If that is the case, Jibini goes back to Amantigazig and a dog named Kindu. Tana my mill rescue goes back to a dog named Tango on the female side, and a dog named Wau on the male side. It is very interesting to look back that far….you can really see the limited gene pool and linebreeding that took place.
I'm a little confused as to how a dog "loses" a tail line, however. If you can trace any Basenji back to the point where the pedigree says "unknown native dog"....how is the line "lost"?? How can you tell just by looking at the pedigree?
I'm just another pet owner who is endlessly fascinated with this breed & its genetics....so many things about Basenjis that simply don't apply to other breeds. I love it. Thanks for any input :).
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Losing a tail line means that there are no longer any descendants that can trace back to that founder in that manner.
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Very interesting thread - i am facinated by the history of all breeds, but the Zande pedigree website makes things so simple. Did a search on Tilly - she goes back tail female to Tango( via Bereke of Blean) , and tail male to Kindu (via Am Ch. Kingolo).
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Ok, so this is cool. I still can not figure out how to use it though. I plunk in my dogs parents and then what? I just need some clarification…it's a blond thing..
Petra
