Soft-Serve Stool

[Roux]

Hello Basenjifolk!
Sorry to bring up this delicious subject, but I've been trying to get control of Roux's poop since mid-January and have been having some trouble. Here's my long-ass post

Food History:
~Breeder was feeding solely Royal Canin. I know, I know this is absolute garbage and he should've known better but Taiwan is still a smidge backward about the art/science of dog nutrition and people still mostly go by vet recommendations, which is not a heavy background in foods. Roux was weaned onto this after mom. She pooped in front of me the second visit and I saw her stool was soft-serve consistency but not so soft I was concerned.
~At nearly 9 weeks (yes I know this is early but there was a fumigation event next door to the breeder and we made this decision) and 4.6lbs she came home with us. We continued the original diet of a quarter cup RC for a few days while she got used to us, her crate, and all the new stuff that comes with a new home. Stool was still soft-serve consistency with occasional twinkie form. She ate some poop twice and I started her on one small piece of canned pineapple every day, which worked like a charm. Started slowly mixing her over to Nutram T28 and Orijen puppy formulas 75/25 old to new. She got a yak-cheese stick to chew in her crate and tiny bits of dehydrated chicken for high-value training bits. This created no changes.
~At 6lbs and 11 weeks and 25/75 RC to new foods, she began having what I would definitely call diarrhea on and off. Stopped progress, added a little pumpkin, diarrhea stopped, but 'sometimes soft-serve sometimes twinkie' continued. Finally got off RC at 13 weeks.
~At 8.8lbs and 14weeks started introducing pinches of different kibble, more treats, and different chews. All grain-free surf or turf, some fruits and vegetables, a smidge of yogurt. Poop was still 'sometimes soft-serve sometimes twinkie'.
~At 12.1lbs and nearly 17weeks started probiotics. Firmed up for a couple of days. Then 'sometimes soft-serve sometimes twinkie' again.

Now 18 weeks and 13lbs and I'm not sure what the next step is. I had plans to get this pup off of RC and onto 50/50 grain-free kibble and raw diet. At this point I'm worried about feeding the chicken and salmon in my freezer reserved for her.
She's been to the vet a few times for vaccinations and he's given her a clean bill of health.
I'm so sorry to have subjected anyone still reading to Roux's food and poop diary, but I'd love any opinions or ideas for how to firm this pup up. I've raised a few dogs in my time and none have had too much trouble in this department, so I'm beginning to think this is just how she is? Thanks all!

[tanza]

Did the Vet do a stool sample? Could be as simple as she needs to be wormed? Did the vet check for giardia?

[Roux]

@tanza Indeed he checked for worms, giardia, possible infection, and though there aren't signs of intolerance/allergy like skin symptoms, discomfort, bloating, or gas, he said that if I wanted to check that, he could recommend a specialist. I wanted to ask y'all what you thought before I went and subjected her to more testing
To add to the above super lengthy post, Roux is a very happy, energetic puppy (sometimes to the point of crazy *see velociraptor meme @jengosmonkey said in biting..again:

@yodabasenji I think I posted this sometime ago. One of my favorite graphics explaining the evolution of a puppy...

She's got a lovely shiny coat, bright clear eyes and clean ears, and every other indication that she's healthy. Am I just being an overprotective paranoid new mother?

[tanza]

@roux - Years ago, my first male Basenji had stool/diarrhea issues for his first few years, off and on. We finally put him on Flagyl is also known as metronidazole. And we did this even though none of the test showed bacteria in the stool. But he was on it for 3 wks or so (sorry it was back in 1990's so do not remember the dose) and he remained great for years to come. Not to say that he didn't at time have loose stool, but generally in good health and he lived to 17 1/2. Hindsight is 20/20, I wish that I would have put him on the Flagyl sooner than later. Anyway something to consider. JUST As a FYI, these days and have for years now, I have changed food sources up every few weeks... different brands of mostly grain free or at least without corn, veggies (steamed and raw) meat/cooked or raw.... so I never have an issue with running out of the food they usually eat... they are so used to change all the time it is never an issue.

[Roux]

@tanza Yep that's where I want to get to! To be able to switch foods at will because their bellies aren't sensitive to change would be the goal. I've always kept my furkids this way and it's great to talk to someone likeminded!
Hm, a round of metro wouldn't hurt. I'll ask the vet if he might just do that just to try it and see if it helps. Thanks for your hindsight/insight! Poop problems are always such a PITA

[tanza]

@roux - Sounds like a plan, I don't know in your country the available of different foods... but it is still easy to change them up with what you have available. Mine have always loved veggies... steamed are great to start with.. but when I was making food for us humans, I would throw (LOL) raw veggies on the kitchen floor to let them try... they play with them for a while till they get the taste, same with fruits... but watermelon is a total favorite!

[elbrant]

@roux Roux's 'digestion issues' might be related to something as simple as a her primary water source. It might be worthwhile to purchase some bottled spring water and give her that for a week or two to see if it resolves the problem.

Other than that, my best suggestion is to keep the (pureed) pumpkin in her diet. About 1 teaspoon a day, not more. A 14oz can/tin of pumpkin is a lot of teaspoonfuls! I spoon them out on a cookie sheet and freeze them for an hour, then store the frozen dots (in the freezer, of course) in a zipper freezer bag. Just pull one out for Roux every day.

[Roux]

@tanza There's more and more great imports! Nutram and Orijen currently, but the local shops stock Wellness, Holistic Select, Blue Buffalo, Instinct, Nutro, and much, much more! I'm just more worried that trying her on raw is going to create a huge upset...
She loves trying new fresh veggies and fruits, though I only give her a tiny piece of anything I'm prepping for dinner because of her tum.

@elbrant I'll give that a try! I wouldn't suspect our filtered water to be a problem, but maybe!

[Scagnetti]

@roux said in Soft-Serve Stool:

Hello Basenjifolk!
Sorry to bring up this delicious subject, but I've been trying to get control of Roux's poop since mid-January and have been having some trouble. Here's my long-ass post

Food History:
~Breeder was feeding solely Royal Canin. I know, I know this is absolute garbage and he should've known better but Taiwan is still a smidge backward about the art/science of dog nutrition and people still mostly go by vet recommendations, which is not a heavy background in foods. Roux was weaned onto this after mom. She pooped in front of me the second visit and I saw her stool was soft-serve consistency but not so soft I was concerned.
~At nearly 9 weeks (yes I know this is early but there was a fumigation event next door to the breeder and we made this decision) and 4.6lbs she came home with us. We continued the original diet of a quarter cup RC for a few days while she got used to us, her crate, and all the new stuff that comes with a new home. Stool was still soft-serve consistency with occasional twinkie form. She ate some poop twice and I started her on one small piece of canned pineapple every day, which worked like a charm. Started slowly mixing her over to Nutram T28 and Orijen puppy formulas 75/25 old to new. She got a yak-cheese stick to chew in her crate and tiny bits of dehydrated chicken for high-value training bits. This created no changes.
~At 6lbs and 11 weeks and 25/75 RC to new foods, she began having what I would definitely call diarrhea on and off. Stopped progress, added a little pumpkin, diarrhea stopped, but 'sometimes soft-serve sometimes twinkie' continued. Finally got off RC at 13 weeks.
~At 8.8lbs and 14weeks started introducing pinches of different kibble, more treats, and different chews. All grain-free surf or turf, some fruits and vegetables, a smidge of yogurt. Poop was still 'sometimes soft-serve sometimes twinkie'.
~At 12.1lbs and nearly 17weeks started probiotics. Firmed up for a couple of days. Then 'sometimes soft-serve sometimes twinkie' again.

Now 18 weeks and 13lbs and I'm not sure what the next step is. I had plans to get this pup off of RC and onto 50/50 grain-free kibble and raw diet. At this point I'm worried about feeding the chicken and salmon in my freezer reserved for her.
She's been to the vet a few times for vaccinations and he's given her a clean bill of health.
I'm so sorry to have subjected anyone still reading to Roux's food and poop diary, but I'd love any opinions or ideas for how to firm this pup up. I've raised a few dogs in my time and none have had too much trouble in this department, so I'm beginning to think this is just how she is? Thanks all!

Out of curiosity, why did you choose a small & toy breed food?

The Orijen has a lot of different proteins in it. The top allergies that dogs have are to proteins. You also said you're giving chews like yak cheese and presumably bully sticks, etc. (protein). And you're training with chicken, which is protein. It sounds like a lot of protein intake. If it were me, I would stop with the chews whether they're pig's ears or edible Nylabone chews or whatever else. (This is difficult cause they're great for the crate.) Also, I'd cut out any treats with carbohydrates (grains, potatoes, rice, etc.). Then reevaluate where the dog is in a month or so. Perhaps digestive enzymes may be needed if you don't find results with reducing protein and carbohydrate intake.

All the best.

[elbrant]

@scagnetti said in Soft-Serve Stool:

The top allergies that dogs have are to proteins.

Is there some kind of legit study that proves that dogs are allergic to protein? I get that dogs will eat veggies, but you are suggesting the elimination of protein, grains, potatoes, and rice? Aren't canines carnivores, i.e.; protein eaters, and not vegetarians?

I will agree that too much of anything can be harmful. I'm just not sure about jumping on the "dogs are allergic to meat" bandwagon....

[Roux]

@scagnetti As @tanza and I were discussing earlier, the goal is to be able to switch around basically for every meal between many different brands. That way they get used to eating different foods and there's not a problem running out of their brand and formula. The T28 and Orijen were simply the first foods we purchased and began mixing in different kibbles at about 14 weeks. To answer your question: I was looking for T25, but the shop was out and comparing the ingredients list and analysis (which are absolutely identical) I saw no harm in temporarily feeding the "small/toy" food.
Honestly the yak cheese stick looks very nearly the same today as it did when I first put it in there, meaning she's only been able to gnaw a minute amount of it off, as does the beef rib and the dental stick. She's apparently not a huge chewer! No treats with carbs at all, and only kitchen scraps of veggies and fruit.
She has also been on probiotics since 17 weeks and as said in the above convo, seen a vet who doesn't think it's allergies though he can recommend a specialist if nothing else works.
I did see her poop at the breeder when she was on one sole protein source and it was soft-serve. I'm just so frustrated that not much changed when I moved her off of RC.

Anyway, update! I've started feeding raw chicken wings plus veggies and fruit for one of her two meals, and even though it's been only a few days, HALLELUJAH SOLID POOP!! I was nervous to do this considering the soft-serve problem, but figured one meal wouldn't do a terrible amount of damage. First day, perfect poop! Did this again for the second day, and today is the end of the third day! The wonder of non-processed raw diet!

[Scagnetti]

@elbrant said in Soft-Serve Stool:

@scagnetti said in Soft-Serve Stool:

The top allergies that dogs have are to proteins.

Is there some kind of legit study that proves that dogs are allergic to protein? I get that dogs will eat veggies, but you are suggesting the elimination of protein, grains, potatoes, and rice? Aren't canines carnivores, i.e.; protein eaters, and not vegetarians?

I will agree that too much of anything can be harmful. I'm just not sure about jumping on the "dogs are allergic to meat" bandwagon....

I wasn't suggesting the elimination of protein, I was suggesting the reduction of it. I was however suggesting the elimination of carbohydrates.

Dogs are scavengers. They'll eat whatever they have to in order to survive.

Also, I didn't say that dogs were allergic to meat, I said that proteins are the top allergies that dogs suffer from. This is why there are so many different kind of proteins available i.e. ostrich, kangaroo, rabbit, lamb, alligator, bison, duck, etc.

As for studies, I'm sure you can find some on Google. I wouldn't be surprised if you found studies that report conflicting results.

All the best.

[tanza]

@roux - Now that you tried the chicken raw and veggies/fruits for one of her meals, is she eating her regular food for the other meal and still solid poops? Can you get Natural Balance limited ingredients where you live? I mix up with this in their food.. you can get many of their brands with different food source. But there is nothing wrong with the raw chicken wings and veggies/fruits, however you might need to add supplements for things they might be missing... Do you have a Holistic Vet in your area? They can help with raw feeding... might be worth checking into...

[Roux]

@tanza She's eating raw lunch and kibble dinner. The corresponding poops are very small and firm and slightly looser more Twinkie like. It seems she may be sensitive to how rich the kibbles are. We do indeed have Natural Balance limited ingredient formulas and I'll give that a try for the next bag.
Currently there isn't a holistic vet here but I know one from when I lived in Boston that I can talk to, so we're golden!
I'll keep y'all updated as Roux continues onward on her poop journey

[tanza]

@roux - Perfect, sounds like a plan!

[tanza]

@roux - Also I have just started to use Purina Pro Plan Small Breed Adult Sensitive Skin & Stomach Formula Dry Dog Food, no corn and my adults have really do well with the first bag... it was recommended by another breeder here in No California... if you can get it you might want to try that along with the raw. I also give mine a heaping teaspoon of plain yogurt every day... They think it is a great treat.

[Roux]

@tanza Oh Roux does anything you want for her daily spoon of yogurt hahaha thanks for the tips!

[Roux]

UPDATE! So it's been two weeks after switching over to raw lunch and kibble dinner, and all this time Roux's poop has been completely normal!

The pellets she makes from raw food is surprisingly compact and low odor. She's had chicken wings, beef, pork, mackerel, tilapia, and salmon, plus side dishes of egg, veggies and fruit, with a sprinkling of BARF supplement powder.
I did wind up taking her off of Orijen Puppy, which seemed to be causing more soft-serve than Nutram, and now she's on Wellness Core and Nutram T25 with pinches of Castor & Pollux, Spring Naturals, Merrick, and other grain-free formulas (I get sample packs free from the shop ). The kibble poop is a little softer than the raw poop, but completely normal and easy to pick up.
For treats she gets dried meats, a small amount of cat food kibble for training, and human goodies like yogurt or kitchen scraps like zucchini ends. For chews she has a dental stick once a week and every day I'll give her a hunk of frozen raw lamb or pork femur to alleviate the teething pain. And that old yak cheese stick is still there, even though she works on it in her crate sometimes. That thing is shortening very, very slowly.

I'm just happy we've finally got control on the number 2 situation... I was worried she was uncomfortable or at least wasn't absorbing properly. Perhaps it was just too much rich kibble? Not sure what the reason is here, but thanks for the help and support everyone!

[Zande]

@scagnetti said in Soft-Serve Stool:

I wouldn't be surprised if you found studies that report conflicting results.

That is almost always the case, isn't it ? One man's meat is indeed another man's poison - - -