Oakley ate something again..FML

[sonnyboy]

[QUOTE. The paperwork/ questionnaires have been tiresome (pages after pages)..but I am very hopeful and excited to get the doctors opinion and help. Cant wait to report more on the visit![/QUOTE]

ohh I forgot about that long ass questionnaire….it was worse then my grad school applications!! Good luck tomorrow.. I hope its as helpful as it was for me and sonny!

[Chealsie508]

It was a very long day! Our appointment was at three and we didn't leave until 6…he is a resource guarder when it comes to food and his ambivalence towards other dogs is fear based. Yet the fear doesn't show through because he has a boldness in him true to his personality. Considering that he comes from a good size ltter and his litter mates as well as dam and sire don't have these issues she says its indicative of genetics playing a role (when breeding pure sometimes they can get too much of a good thing). We are to implement "nothing in life is free"..which she says is making him obey a command before eating and getting treats and picking something else he enjoys and making him obey a command before he can get/have it. Based on her description we have already been doing it- he has to sit and stay for his meal, he always obeys a command before treats and he has to sit before entering our home. Also I am to remove all triggers of food aggression so he has nothing to trigger over in order to get his reactionary level back down. Trashes are up, when I cook he must be out of the kitchen, when I eat he must be crated (she believes he will NEVER be able to be near the dinner table bc of his inability to be in control around it), if he steals food out of the trash or on a sidewalk that he can have it unless its a danger rather than take it from him. I have to feed him in a low traffic area and let him be while eating. As far as the dog to dog issue, she recommends using a head halter (which he started about a month ago) to gain better control in situations he may try to nip, she thinks exercise is a big part of it. Since my knee injury we no longer run- she wants me to find a dog daycare but I highly doubt one would take him with full disclosure, I also think its a liability right now as he is so hit or miss. Also, once he gets tired, naturally he gets cranky..No more than 5-6 hours in crate at a time so I've hired a dog walker I know to come midday and wall him..but as a single woman with a management job I can't help my working hours. She think he needs two hours minimum of high energy exercise. She still thinks I should try dog parks with a muzzle. I brought him to one in wrentham Saturday and got twenty minutes out of it, some with the muzzle, some without. He got along without incident chasing the big dogs but ran into a tiny rat terrier..no fight but he didn't back down when she gave him clear indicators too..it got too busy and I decided to leave- also there was a couple who brought their 4 year old and a couple with a stroller, that's too much stress for me as the behaviorist suggested at this stage not to allow children to interact with him as you don't know if they have/had food. She wanted to out him on a six month trial of Prozac which I declined. I firmly know and believe his lack of intense exercise is the issue more than him needing meds. But she did say it was on the table and that Prozac can help with resource guarding and aggression over guarding...I just am not comfortable. It's a lot to take in and digest- its a time consuming change and also expensive but I am committed to trying to make him a mor reliable dog around other dogs and to be able to have him around people/people food without incident. I hope for my sake that we can make progress because I want to have A family one day and his behavior is certainly a stress factor for me. The saddest part is that when it comes to him with other dogs I know he wants to have fun with them and play... You can see plain as day he is conflicted about what he wants and what he's compelled to do to/with dogs.

I'm hopeful, it's been tiring. I have to nail down a more permanent schedule at work, get up much earlier and dedicate an hour in the mornings to him and an hour when I get home..perhaps find an indoor area we can rent time in when weathers bad to be able to exercise...yesterday he was exhausted and he was great...but I know there will come a day when I have a family and I may not be able to dedicate my entire life to him..I hope he can handle it. As hopeful as I am, I'm also overwhelmed and feeling a bit constrained- like I will never be able to so anything like go out with a friend or a date..but maybe it's because I'm in the thick of it. I can't think long term with him bc it worries me he may not accept me having a family, babies... As the doctor said, and it rings very true..with a dog like Oakley "there is no room for error".

Chealsie & Oakley

[Chealsie508]

Regardless, I love him and I won't give him up, now or in the future

[agilebasenji]

WOW! I think this sounds really fabulous and thanks for sharing with us. I mean you can't solve a problem without identifying it. So good on you there. Have you done any relaxation protocol with O? I don't think it would be in conflict with any of your new program with O.
http://www.dogdaysnw.com/doc/OverallRelaxationProtocol.pdf
That's how I fed Z her dinner for quite a while when she was younger.

@Chealsie508:

We are to implement "nothing in life is free"..which she says is making him obey a command before eating and getting treats and picking something else he enjoys and making him obey a command before he can get/have it. Based on her description we have already been doing it- he has to sit and stay for his meal, he always obeys a command before treats and he has to sit before entering our home.

I think this is wonderful for so many dogs. They need to occupy their little brains. And you can have fun with this. Z! usually has to work for most of her meals. One behavior for one/couple of pieces of kibble. Outside we work on agility stuff and heel work (both sides). Inside we work on our freestyle stuff. Right now we're working on pivoting into heel and side (heeling on the right side). Z also has to sit and focus on me before I let her off lead and into the dog or agility yard. I started doing this after reading about default behaviors in the book Control Unleashed. Lately I've added a hand touch, so our routine looks like this: sit and focus on me, hand touch (nose to my hand), leash off, hand touch again and release. Anyway, once you have some basic obedience stuff down, there's no need to limit yourself to just those behaviors. There are several good trick books out there if you need some inspiration.

@Chealsie508:

Since my knee injury we no longer run- she wants me to find a dog daycare but I highly doubt one would take him with full disclosure, I also think its a liability right now as he is so hit or miss. Also, once he gets tired, naturally he gets cranky..No more than 5-6 hours in crate at a time so I've hired a dog walker I know to come midday and wall him..but as a single woman with a management job I can't help my working hours. She think he needs two hours minimum of high energy exercise.

Is biking an option? It would take just a little bit of training but I've used the springer bike attachment with all of my basenjis. Of course you'd have to find somewhere where you're not going to run into loose dogs.

@Chealsie508:

It's a lot to take in and digest- its a time consuming change and also expensive but I am committed to trying to make him a mor reliable dog around other dogs and to be able to have him around people/people food without incident. I hope for my sake that we can make progress because I want to have A family one day and his behavior is certainly a stress factor for me. The saddest part is that when it comes to him with other dogs I know he wants to have fun with them and play… You can see plain as day he is conflicted about what he wants and what he's compelled to do to/with dogs.

is there any chance he can learn to read other dogs and play with them someday?

@Chealsie508:

I'm hopeful, it's been tiring. I have to nail down a more permanent schedule at work, get up much earlier and dedicate an hour in the mornings to him and an hour when I get home..perhaps find an indoor area we can rent time in when weathers bad to be able to exercise…yesterday he was exhausted and he was great...but I know there will come a day when I have a family and I may not be able to dedicate my entire life to him..I hope he can handle it. As hopeful as I am, I'm also overwhelmed and feeling a bit constrained- like I will never be able to so anything like go out with a friend or a date..but maybe it's because I'm in the thick of it. I can't think long term with him bc it worries me he may not accept me having a family, babies... As the doctor said, and it rings very true..with a dog like Oakley "there is no room for error".

Chealsie & Oakley

well, it sounds like you're going to be very fit with your new schedule! And you just need to find some dog friends who want to go on a long hike. Dates too. Who says dates have to be dinner and a movie? Hikes at the local off beat parks are so much more interesting. (Here in Colorado there are many, many nice hiking places.)

You're a good dog mom and i'm sure it will all work out for you. And you may even look back on this in a few years and think of this as a blessing. Sometimes unexpected paths are like that. I believe they will bloom if you let it.

[Chealsie508]

I haven't agile..what I am upset about is that I want to subject Oakley to more social situations because I think his ambivalence comes from a place of just not having enough experience around others because I live alone so both with people and dogs he doesn't get interactions often. I'm upset because I looked up agility classes ( upon the behaviorists rec.) at a couple of local training facilities and Oakley can't participate because they consider him dog aggressive, also one of those facilities has control unleashed 6 week programs and is love to get Oakley involved in that but again they specifically state, it's ok for dogs with issues with other dogs but bc Oakley may or may not "take it there" he isn't eligible. I just wish we could participate in classes bc I think it would help him, I get it but I don't at the same time..he wants the interaction..but that switch for "I want to" and " I don't want to" is intertwined. When I saw him playing with the golden doodle and black lab yesterday he was just full out running..he loved it, so it's hard to see him miss out on that when I think it's the key to helping him move forward with dogs

[agilebasenji]

@Chealsie508:

also one of those facilities has control unleashed 6 week programs and is love to get Oakley involved in that but again they specifically state, it's ok for dogs with issues with other dogs but bc Oakley may or may not "take it there" he isn't eligible.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. If the trainer hasn't seen him in person, could you do a few privates before taking a group CU class?

And actually, I can see where a group agility class would not be a good idea for O right now. So many times dogs will get over the top energy and surrounding him in that sort of environment may be a set back right now.

I don't envy you, but I do sort of envy the learning curve I think you're on right now. (I will say the renal failure learning curve, while interesting, just flat sucked.)

[Chealsie508]

Based on the class descriptions they are very specific about not including dogs that have ever been aggressive to other dogs… and oakley has taken it there before with a snap/ bite. He could see Oakley in person...it's just his reactions are varied. I could try the same scenario with a dog exactly...say five times and five times id get a different reaction. I think it's possible for him to read dogs correctly in the future..and not react out of fear (as the behaviorist says he does)..although I don't see typical signs of fear..I just think he needs exposure. I'd have to ask and see if they offer private classes vs group classes. With Oakley he prefers larger dogs but his best dog friend is a schnauzer he grew up with down the street who he's great with. He tends not to like un-neutered males (no shocker) bc one he knows he despises but he met one the other day and it went ok...he doesn't "go after" dogs, he shows interest and curiosity..when he meets them he gets stiff often times and during sniffing,usually when their heads are parallel to each other he can sometimes get a glassy look and I can tell he will growl,lip curl or nip..his triggers are random which for me makes it difficult to understand..but I know his looks. If he's being approached by a running dog he is defensive which i get but then ita hard to get him to move forward, in general..unless he's removed from the stimulus he doesn't forget about it.Right now I'm trying to introduce him successfully to my friends 8 week old schnauzer bc that person also owns the adult schnauzer oakleys best buds with and grew up with. That's been hit or miss, some days he's totally enthralled with the tiny thing but others he growls at him and doesn't like the movements or being approached by him..I don't get why he's threatened by such a tiny thing..but it is what it is- were just taking it slow.

[Chealsie508]

Is biking an option? It would take just a little bit of training but I've used the springer bike attachment with all of my basenjis. Of course you'd have to find somewhere where you're not going to run into loose dogs.

–--->Biking isn't an option, roller blading is a better option but it'll still be tough when winter hits. I am embarrassed to admit I've always been awful on a bike and adding Oakley to that- its be awful. Last time I was on a bike my sweatshirt of caught in the chain and the bike flipped and landed on me..I ended up in the ER with sever road rash and needed meds just to bend my arm into a sling...I'm not graceful so maybe that's where oak gets its from, but with that said, I am good with roller blades. Being in my mid twenties it hasn't been that long since I've used them..lol!

is there any chance he can learn to read other dogs and play with them someday?

------>I have hope that it's possible, like I said..he wants to get along with most dogs..it really is ambivalence..once we can work on the fear part of it and get more exposure I'm hoping we can gain a little note distance between the "want to" switch and the "something wrong when it's not" switch.. He's never straight gone after a dog, it's more of during interactions things get misconstrued in Oakley's own head.

well, it sounds like you're going to be very fit with your new schedule! And you just need to find some dog friends who want to go on a long hike. Dates too. Who says dates have to be dinner and a movie? Hikes at the local off beat parks are so much more interesting. (Here in Colorado there are many, many nice hiking places.)

You're a good dog mom and i'm sure it will all work out for you. And you may even look back on this in a few years and think of this as a blessing. Sometimes unexpected paths are like that. I believe they will bloom if you let it.

–---->Thanks Agile- in order to not feel bogged down and a Debbie downer about the future I am trying to keep it day by day and take the victories for what they are and try to find solutions for the future for the things that won't change with him. Perhaps even, with age he may get better. The way it's looking for me is that it'll be at the least a few years before children and marriage..

[krunzer]

Do you think you could get him on a treadmill? It's an option, you could fit it into your apartment and exercise him in the morning and at night when you get home. Just a thought…... find a used one for cheap in the internet (people are always selling them) and try it out?

[agilebasenji]

@krunzer:

Do you think you could get him on a treadmill? It's an option, you could fit it into your apartment and exercise him in the morning and at night when you get home. Just a thought…... find a used one for cheap in the internet (people are always selling them) and try it out?

yes if not right now, generally you can find them towards the end of January when the new years' resolution wears off.

[Chealsie508]

Lol. Not a bad thought..I would have to find a way to mentally tire him out as well..but the treadmills a good idea when the weathers bad. Today was day one of me going back go work since Fridays appointment and unfortunately my plans were thwarted because its raining and thundering so getting Oakley to go out for an hour wasn't happening, I barely got him to go pee…

[tanza]

@Chealsie508:

It was a very long day! Our appointment was at three and we didn't leave until 6…he is a resource guarder when it comes to food and his ambivalence towards other dogs is fear based. Yet the fear doesn't show through because he has a boldness in him true to his personality. Considering that he comes from a good size ltter and his litter mates as well as dam and sire don't have these issues she says its indicative of genetics playing a role (when breeding pure sometimes they can get too much of a good thing). Chealsie & Oakley

Not saying there is, but how do you know that none of the littermates/sire/dam have these issues? Not saying it is not genetics, but if genetics, I would think it would be seen in the sibs to some extent. And unless you personally know all the sibs on a pretty close bases, you would not know if this was a problem with them also…. Also I don't agree with the "breeding pure" statement. If I remember his pedigree correctly, doesn't he have new AF bloodlines?

[Chealsie508]

As far as his sire and dam I had discussions prior to getting Oakley as to their behavior and temperament, and there was no mention if any issues or concerns, as far as his litter mates; I can't be sure but I've emailed the breeder multiple times over the course of the last two years and she's aware I've had my issues with Oakley.. There was breeding with new AF lines but not in oakleys pedigree; if youre refering to their inport..Ojo? I have to look to see his percentage is but I don't recall it being high AF..I think what the behaviorist was referring to was that when breeding purebred dogs especially they can inherit traits with higher levels of intensity. She thinks behaviors can start for two reason: environmental or genetic…and based on what I know our breeder does to socialize and what I continued with..she doesn't think it's environmental...also not to say that genetically there's something wrong with him, just that he is an intense dog, extremely willful and determined.. I'm not at all blaming my breeder or cutting myself slack on my part in oakleys issues..I don't want anyone to think that...also, for full disclosure- Other than resource guarding food as a pup Oakley never showed at behavioral issues until he hit maturity..there isn't anything I can recall (other than his propensity to eat stuff! Lol) that stands out in my mind as to the issues Im trying to resolve now. There are other factors such as the break in we had that I suspect has caused some extra fear. Either way, whatever the reasoning behind why he is the way he..it doesn't matter..it's really about changing the way I handle him to hopefully get a better, happier Oakley in the end. He isn't an awful dog. He's just complex..

[ownedbyspencer]

I'm glad your visit went well and that you got some answers. Behaviorial issues are tough. Ava needs a lot of exercise, too– more than I can give her with walks and playtime. It takes lots of active dogs to tire her out, and she will play nonstop for hours, exhausting them all. We were turned down by several daycares and daycamps before I found one that would take such a high-energy dog. Most have separate play yards for "less social" dogs. So maybe there is a daycare near you that can group Oakley with a prescreened group of dogs that he likes? Or put him in his own run with other dogs in runs on both sides, so he can play and chase with limited contact. You might find that Oakley becomes more at ease once he's used to being around other dogs all the time (with you not there). If you're concerned that the resource guarding could cause problems, ask them not to offer treats or toys or to only make them available in the crate.

A few things that have worked with Ava at home are a flirt pole and a kiddie pool (big successes!) and, occasionally, a frisbee. The treadmill didn't work for us (I was pretty bummed) and neither did those activity balls and IQ cubes. Even if you can't enroll Oakley in agility classes right now, maybe he would enjoy some of the equipment? Can you do private classes or start with a few pieces -- short tunnel, wobble board, stepladder, etc. -- in your living room? That could be a confidence builder for Oakley.

And don't forget to take care of you! Dealing with a challenging dog is very stressful and can affect your health. The stress can really sneak up on you..

[Chealsie508]

I agree that more contact/exposure would help him figure out his ambivalence..if Oakley didn't have the issues with other dogs it would be easier to find ways to exercise him. When I took him to the dog park he was so excited running with the big dogs, not to say issues couldn't have arisen but fortunately, when he was unmuzzled he started running and getting chased..it exhausted him..but doing that exhausts me bc of the stress of "do I take the muzzle off", when's it off " what's his body language saying", "do I think he's getting too stimulated?", "what dogs are around?"…he's not reliable yet. Like I said, he wants the interaction. Once the new routine is underway it'll get less stressful..not less expensive but less stress..lol
His new dog walking and activities are adding up!! I have to try the treadmill because the New England weather is torture..between heavy rain, extreme colds and lot of snow; it's impossible to get Oakley outside never mind for a walk..and this year the winter is expected to be harsh and bitter..ugh! I also found a training facility that rents a ring by the hour if I wanted oak to run indoors and play with him. I believe the rental is 15/hr so I have to call and get more info on that...

[ownedbyspencer]

Yes, it gets expensive. When Ava was a crazy, hyper puppy, I would take her to daycare 3-4 days/wk for my own sanity! Now, she goes once, maybe twice, a week.

While Ava will play with anyone, Spencer was pickier and preferred people. I found that he did much better at daycare than at the dog park. They pick up on our stress and uncertainties and at the park, we're always wondering about other dogs. At daycare, we're not there, so they're not picking up cues from us. I wonder how Oakley would do in a supervised play session with you not there? Could a trainer arrange this for you? Just a thought. He's a good dog, and you'll work it out.

[tanza]

Who are his sire and dam again? If you don't mind sharing…... And sad to say, but sometimes breeders are not totally up front with possible problems as you are seeing with Oakley.... and not because they don't want to share, but if their dogs are more or less kennel dogs than everyday house dogs, you would not see or maybe be aware of these issues... so while the answer might be, nope we don't see these problems... could be in a house/home situation it would come to light. Not saying that is the case here, but I do know that his breeders have a number of Basenjis... and I am fairly certain that they are not all house dogs, so sometimes behaviors can been missed. Kennel dogs are usually kenneled with one of the opposite sex, get limited house time... so without being able to evaluate them 24/7 easy enough to miss possible behaviors. And when in kennels, they are limited to items that could/can cause something like resourse guarding... again IMO

And that is an interesting point about a play date without you being there..... especially if he thinks you need to be the one to be guarded in a situation with more than just him...

[Chealsie508]

Sire:
Am/Can Ch. Candu's Rocket Man SC
Ch. Eldorado N Akuaba Never Say Never
Ch. Eldorado's Bejeweled
Sire: GCH Eldorado's
((((((( Akuaba One More Time)))))))
"Smoky" (cr)
Ch. Eldorado's Adonis, JC
Ch. Eldorado's Ooh La La
Ch. Eldorado's Hocus Pocus

Dam:

Chaanrose Parting Shot
Am. Can. Ch. Sternhimmels Generis Sui
Int. Fin. Dk. N. S. Ch. Sternhimmels Ad Astra
((((( Dam: Ch. Eldorado's Feel The Heat)))))
"Ashley" (cl)
Avongara Kasabu
Ch. Eldorado's Questionable Lady
Ch. Eldorado's Halcyon

[Chealsie508]

It's possible to have him evaluated, he has guarded me in the past, although that didn't make the list to the behaviorist bc it's almost never happened or nothing physical resulted from it..he is also very in tune to me so it's also possible he senses my stress/uncomfortability. It could very well be that off leash or without me around he would be fine

A pic and a video of my dog sitting: the only scuffles came over feeding time, and he got grumpy with her when she got near him while he was sleeping..but fairly normal and acceptable behaviors in my book..

http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z383/chealsie508/445DCD8B-864E-4F3E-B691-384E675A898F-2157-000001AF9346033A_zps1674490d.mp4

[ownedbyspencer]

Worth a try. Since he's so protective of you, you might be surprised at how quickly his behavior changes when you're not in the equation. He's grown into a lovely boy.

LOL– Ava doesn't think I'm a resource worth guarding.