Tucker has ulcers

[Schouiffy]

This is from my Mom - I wanted to ask you all if you have ever heard of this in your Bs? Mom says the vets still don't know why it's caused.

"The vet thinks Tucker has an exaggerated auto- immune response to bacteria (especially in his mouth). The medical name is stomatitis (inflammation of the mucous membranes.) He's on a 3 month cycle of metronidazole."

Apparently this means ulcers all over his mouth/gums/tongue. I feel so bad for the poor him.. Anyone have any experience with this ?

[krunzer]

Just with human canker sores…never knew dogs could get something like that.

[dcmclcm4]

There was a disussion previously about this in the Basenji Forums-you might want to do a search. It is also called CUPS.

Jennifer

[DebraDownSouth]

Generally cups doesn't cause the tongue to have ulcers because the inside of the mouth flushed bacteria while the gums and cheeks against the teeth hold and inflame. They don't even need tartar–- they actually react to just plaque.

Arwen has CUPS. I brush her teeth every night, she is on steroids every other day (we tried every 3 days but she flared up quick), antibiotics between cleaning if she gets an ulcer starting, and she has to have full dental (as in knocked out, not the cheap pretend cleaning while awake) cleaning every 3 mos. Originally it was 6 mos, she kept losing teeth, we tried 4 mos-- still has loose teeth. With 3 mos, her last 3 visits the teeth were all firm and no tooth loss.

Although they CAN pull them all, it isn't a guarantee they won't still have issues and need to be on steroids forever, so we are trying to keep her teeth as long as possible. Having seen toothless dogs with tongues hanging out, I won't lie-- it grosses me out. But more important, since it is an autoimmune disorder, she probably needs the steroids for her system, not just her mouth issues.

Here are some links:
http://www.gcnm.org/CUPS.html
http://www.dentalvets.co.uk/referral/rabbits.html
http://www.petmd.com/dog/conditions/mouth/c_dg_oral_ulceration_cups

[nobarkus]

Tell your parents to make an appt with Mid Peninsula Vet to see Dr. Cynthia Easton. She may be able to help holistically using herbs vs the harder drugs. She's trained in homeopathy, acupuncture, and Chinese veterinary medicine and herbology. She likes to approach health and disease from a holistic perspective.

[DebraDownSouth]

? Isn't she in Scotland too? (ie mid peninsula vet)

Sorry Dan, I have yet to see any homeopathic research that helped autoimmune disorders. Glad to see it if you find it, but herbs and acupuncture probably aren't going to help such an insidious disease as this and the pain they experience not worth playing around with, imho.

[Schouiffy]

Oh no, my mom lives outside of San Francisco. I know she has been to Mid. Pen vet - I'll have to ask her about who they have been chatting with. I'm just really surprised that there seems to be no cause identified.

[nobarkus]

What condition are Tucker's teeth in?

[DebraDownSouth]

Lauren, they say auto-immune causes it. I personally suspect a genetic propensity because Sayblee, Arwen's double aunt, had auto-immune issues but not CUPS. As the vet told me, the auto-immune is more a general issue, with it being expressed in different ways. For Arwen, the obvious is CUPS. I am just eternally grateful for this forum where I first heard of CUPS about the same time, lol, that my vet called UGA to discuss Arwen's problems and came up with same conclusion. That the low dose steroid and daily brushing, 3 mo cleaning, are keeping her mostly ulcer free and teeth good makes things manageable for me. Well that and that once we got the gums and teeth in good condition she no longer fought having her teeth brushed. In fact, when I turn off the lamp and get ready for bed, she comes to me to have them done.

[Buddys Pal]

I recently was introduced to coconut oil. If you google it, it has anti-bacterial, anti-fungal, and anti-viral properties. I was taking it myself in capsules and it cleared up something I was dealing with. I found some that is sold in a tub next to the lard in Walmart. I am not saying to try it as a cure all-but it would not hurt anything and sure would be wonderful if it helped the ulcerations. Not withstanding the diagnoses from a professional, but WHAT IF it really helped???? this is just FYI.

[DebraDownSouth]

Years ago I had a gallbladder attack after eating coconut. I eat it sparingly since. But I did go to look– seems touted as newest cure-all with little evidence. Basically it is very high fat, higher than butter according to Harvard:

But, for now, I'd use coconut oil sparingly. Most of the research so far has consisted of short-term studies to examine its effect on cholesterol levels. We don't really know how coconut oil affects heart disease. And I don't think coconut oil is as healthful as vegetable oils like olive oil and soybean oil, which are mainly unsaturated fat and therefore both lower LDL and increase HDL. Coconut oil's special HDL-boosting effect may make it "less bad" than the high saturated fat content would indicate, but it's still probably not the best choice among the many available oils to reduce the risk of heart disease.

— Walter C. Willett, M.D.
Harvard School of Public Health
Department of Nutrition
Harvard Health Letter Editorial Board

[Buddys Pal]

Well Debra, I guess the oil would not be for you. My reply was for a dog. I only mentioned I took some coconut oil for my ailment, and it worked. Not everything is for everyone. But I guess everyone with gall bladder problems should not take it. I reiterate my first sentiment: it has anti- viral, bacterial, and fungal properties. But thanks for sharing your view on this subject and going to the internet to counter the suggestion of coconut oil…..

[DebraDownSouth]

I didn't go on the internet to COUNTER, but rather to look at the safety and if any real research bears it out. If legit site sources upset you, I am sorry.

But giving a dog pancreatitis from too much oil is dangerous, so along with your personal belief it helped YOU, the person needs to know there are safety concerns. If my purpose was to totally scare them off it, I would have included warnings for dogs with liver issues and other things I found. Instead I gave one study so they can consider if it is valuable enough for the risks.

Fats should be given so that they comprise 6 per cent of the dietary calories on a dry
weight basis. This will be accomplished by supplying 0.51 gm/lb/day (1.32 gm/kg/day) of fat in
the diet. Fats are necessary to supply essential fatty acids, fat soluble vitamins (A, D, E, K), and
improve palatability. Excessive fat supplementation may worsen signs of encephalopathy if the
fat source contains large quantities of short chain fatty acids, e.g., coconut oil.

My ONLY purpose, because I had personal experience (differing from yours), was to find out if safe, recommended and any legit studies so the person can make an INFORMED decision. I didn't want something that could damage the dog not responded to if there was concerns.. Instead, because I didn't know myself, I looked and shared. I think it is important for the dog's safety to be fully informed.

Personally, I like when I am given more facts to consider, even if those facts point out I was wrong. Oh wait, ESPECIALLY if they do, because then I learn something and I don't keep on giving out misinformation.

[Buddys Pal]

I am glad you went to a legitimate site to share more facts to consider. Though, I gave out the information as a reply to a thread only to assume that any person reading it was intelligent and would be able to make a decision to pursue or not to pursue more facts. I was not upset nor do I have to ask myself if it is more important for the dog's safety, that would be for the informed person to pursue or even ask a Veterinarian which you and I are not. We are just sharing OPINIONS and experience on this forum.

PS: I only get upset at people who breed more dogs than the world needs and then admits to being part of a rescue(for 30 years), which are quite contradictory actually…...The big picture is out of focus.......