4mo old Black and White Basenji girl for sale!

[DebraDownSouth]

Your regular web page http://annandael.com/ it seems is gone, your facebook gives absolutely no pedigree, health testing or any other info. Can you post info here please?

[annandael]

Sure! Yes my site just went down and we will hopefully have it back up by the end of next week. Gotta love it when you have to cancel your cards and don't catch up on everything that has automatic payments come out of your account!!!

Eshe is out of White Wind Anpu's Lil Secret x Khani's Two anda Half Men

The mother has a CHIC #, Fanconi Clear, Thyroid normal, Eyes have minor PPM, Hips are Good

The father was too young to have hips done when he was bred…his parents had normal thyroids and good-excellent hips.

The breeder/owner of the sire had informed me that the father was Fanconi clear, I didn't have access to his OFA records. I just went on OFA and he was listed as a carrier. I'm bound by my ethics to disclose that Eshe may be a carrier, but will not have Fanconi! As she is never to be bred, it will never be an issue for further generations. I will now order tests from the OFA to test the puppies I still have access to.

[tanza]

Might have been too young for OFA, but not for prelim?

[khanis]

Yes, Charlie is a Carrier.

Yes Pat, he tested as OFA Pre-Lim Good. He was pre-limmed in August 2010.
Danielle actually received a copy of those results. As did she see him listed on OFA as p. Fanconi Clear.
He just turned 2 last week and is scheduled for his official hip/elbow/thyroid panel next month.

Since no one here understands the situation at hand, don't bother starting an ethics debate. Needless to say, the human error in lab results for Charlie's fanconi results were a massive blow to my breeding program this year.
He originally tested as p. fanconi clear as a tiny pup, as did the rest of his litter.

His puppies test results proved he needed to be re-tested… as he sired:
1 clear, 2 carriers, and 1 affected.
These results prompted the need for re-testing, and unfortunately, he did come up as a carrier.

With any test that has humans involved, there is always room for human error. I can accept it, but that is because I have been around the breed and the massive amounts of fanconi that has killed far too many basenjis.
While I accept the fact that human error is always a possibility, I am saddened that this has become the future of one of my pups.

[annandael]

Actually I was never given the results of him being a carrier. I have no record of it. I was told he was clear before I took Kiya to get bred. I was very adamant that I breed Kiya to a clear male. Am I upset? Yes but I understand that the tests are coming out wrong now, which makes me worry about the future of these tests and future breedings with ANY Basenji.

[Quercus]

@annandael:

Actually I was never given the results of him being a carrier. I have no record of it. I was told he was clear before I took Kiya to get bred. I was very adamant that I breed Kiya to a clear male. Am I upset? Yes but I understand that the tests are coming out wrong now, which makes me worry about the future of these tests and future breedings with ANY Basenji.

I think saying 'the tests are coming out wrong now' is misleading. There have been some instances of human error, and there has ALWAYS been a small margin of error with the test, as it is a linkage test, not a direct test. But it is STILL the very best tool breeders have for avoiding producing Fanconi. Let's not panic because of some confusing results, let's wait and hear what Dr. Johnson and the Health Committee have to say about the most recent updates.

[khanis]

You are right Andrea, it IS misleading.

Danielle is referring to the recent re-test on Charlie. I am sure everyone remembers when I was so excited that the entire liter he was in tested as p. Fanconi Clear. It was a 1/64 chance for all 5 pups from a Carrier x Clear breeding to have come up p. Fanconi Clear.

The litter I had this year was Charlie [Benny grandson[ to Maya [Benny daughter]. With Charlie CLEAR and Maya a CARRIER, there should have been no worries.
Unfortunately, test results gave me 1 clear, 2 carriers and 1 affected. This prompted an immediate re-test [new swabs] of all 4 puppies, plus both sire and dam. When Charlie came back as a Carrier I was DEVASTATED.
While I was upset about having an Affected, what bothered me the most was that I used him for breeding based on his Clear status.
Three breedings. One to a Carrier in July that didn't take [thank goodness].
One of my Carrier bitch in October.
And one to Danielle's Clear bitch in October.

I am tired of listening to her complain that she has to test her pups and I did not inform her of his status.
He WAS Clear at the time, TO MY KNOWLEDGE.
The retesting only came back in the past 2 weeks…
not much can be done now, but whining because she did not respond to my requests to contact me did not get her the information when she would have known about it before it was re-posted on OFA.

There have been VERY FEW OF THESE INSTANCES. Making blank statements about multiple lab errors is misleading to the public about the test.

[tanza]

Again as noted this is a linkage test only… it is not a direct test. And there is always room for human error. While there is not one person here that would want happen what happened with Kathy's boy... it makes it clear that we must keep in mind that this is a linkage test. It is better then how we did it in the past....

Yes, there is more work to be done and all Basenji owners should asking the question to BCOA, were are we now? What is the plan? What do we need to do to get to the direct gene. It is every owners responsbility to be involved, not just breeders.

Oh and just to add, Kathy certainly is doing the responsible thing by testing pups from what she thought was a Clear to Carrier breeding and all breeders should be doing... Hence why all B's should be DNA tested, it validates the linkage test so far OR shows results that are not expected and need to be researched further for the reason. There is no such thing as "Clear" by breeding at this time.

[DebraDownSouth]

@annandael:

Actually I was never given the results of him being a carrier. I have no record of it. I was told he was clear before I took Kiya to get bred. I was very adamant that I breed Kiya to a clear male. Am I upset? Yes but I understand that the tests are coming out wrong now, which makes me worry about the future of these tests and future breedings with ANY Basenji.

Well aren't you the conscientious breeder! You sent your dog to breed to a dog that
1. was too young to OFA
2. YOU didn't bother to check his status?

Should the breeder probably have retested before breeding? Hindsight is a lovely thing… and the ONLY good thing is her situation will surely help others to consider retesting adults before breeding, just to be sure.

Airing stuff like this doesn't make Kathy look bad, it makes you look like you truly lack social skills or savvy. Discuss issues with her, not on a forum.

[dcmclcm4]

Pat is correct that all pups need to be tested even if both the sire and dam tested clear. I would not buy a pup from a breeder without being tested. I also tell anyone who is interested in buying a B pup that the pup needs to be tested even if the parents have.

Jennifer

[tanza]

@dcmclcm4:

Pat is correct that all pups need to be tested even if both the sire and dam tested clear. I would not buy a pup from a breeder without being tested. I also tell anyone who is interested in buying a B pup that the pup needs to be tested even if the parents have.

Jennifer

Well, I defer a bit here Jennifer… while they need to be tested, I am not so sure that a P.Clear to P.Clear would be something that all breeders would buy into. Unless both tests on the parents are totally out of wack, worst you would have is a P.Carrier.

That said, I would agree that the parents even should be tested before breeding even is their sire and dam's were P.Clear to P.Clear.

I think that some responsibility should be on the new owners.

My take is if you breed a P.Carrier to a P.Clear, the breeder should test the pups... if a P.Clear to P.Clear, if the breeder wants to great, if not the new pup owners should.

[sharronhurlbut]

Been a long day at work and I am reading this and am not sure what her fanconi status is. Did I miss that?

[tanza]

@sharronhurlbut:

Been a long day at work and I am reading this and am not sure what her fanconi status is. Did I miss that?

Sharon,

As per Kathy the dog was first tested a P.Clear.. she used this dog for her own breeding and since the breeding was a P.Clear or P.Carriers tested the pups… 1 P.Clear, 2 P.Carriers, 1 P.Affected. She questioned those results because it was not what was expected. It was a P.Clear to P.Carrier which should have resulted in P.Carriers at worst. She retested the pups and the Male... the male came back the second time as P.Carrier. This was way after both the breedings happened

[sharronhurlbut]

Thank you Pat.

[Chealsie508]

It's unfortunate that a pup came out affected regardless of the situation. I do however agree that it DOESN'T make Kathy look bad or irresponsible. We ALL know the risks of Fanconi in the breed (or at least we should) and we should all be aware there are no guarantees.

[nomrbddgs]

This is what I stated from the beginning-the test is not infallible and should be used in conjunction with a pedigree. But that being said, there is always, always room for error and mistakes do happen. It seems everyone went into the breeding in good faith, but a mistake happened. Why this should make anyone afraid of the future of the tests or the breeding of any basenji is beyond me. Not one person has said to rely on this test wholeheartedly. It seems to have happened, nothing can be done about it, except learn from it, and move on from there. You can be adamant about wanting a clear stud all you want-mistakes will happen irregardless.

[annandael]

Nomrbddgs: It's not and I will take care to be more careful from now on. It's a sad mistake that we didn't know about until long after I bred Kiya and after Kathy bred Maya.

When I see something is amiss and I know that it is something that is important to be known to a community I make it public. For the remark about ethics that was about -ME- not Kathy. I wish people would try to read the positive in the words not read into things that don't exist.

This got more information to the community about the testing and that is a good thing. Kathy and I have both been forthcoming on information about our dogs.

As for the information posted on my site, I have decided to not breed to any dog that is under age 2 or OFA health tested yes. I didn't realize making that clear on my site was dirty laundry to be aired.

Debra: Do not make remarks on people's character when you don't understand the situation fully. It reflects poorly on you, not the person you insult.

I listened to a seasoned breeder as a new breeder and believed her when she told me that a 1yr old was a good match for my girl. He is a fine dog, I never will say otherwise. I love my puppies and I'm grateful for the wonderful temperament that they have inherited from their parents and the compliments that are showing through from the match.

The issue was that after I made this thread and someone inquired about the puppy's parents and their health I had to discover he was a carrier on OFA and not from the breeder. Perhaps she didn't have enough time to inform me, but I didn't know that and I felt very wounded by this. So yes I made it public. I am all for full disclosure; especially when it concerns health and especially when it concerns the dogs in my breeding program.

If anyone knew anything about me they would know that I am a very caring, concerned dog mom and my puppies are well taken care of.

I have already mentioned that mistakes have been made and further witch hunting is not 'socially savvy' and I ask it to stop.

**Please I ask that this thread go back to the original topic. A very sweet, happy4mo old black and white puppy is looking for a companion home. She loves people of all ages, dogs, cats and even ferrets!

More pictures to come soon!

[nomrbddgs]

I really hope you find a wonderful home for your puppy. Best of luck.

[DebraDownSouth]

@annandael:

Debra: Do not make remarks on people's character when you don't understand the situation fully. It reflects poorly on you, not the person you insult.

The issue was that after I made this thread and someone inquired about the puppy's parents and their health I had to discover he was a carrier on OFA and not from the breeder. Perhaps she didn't have enough time to inform me, but I didn't know that and I felt very wounded by this. So yes I made it public. I am all for full disclosure; especially when it concerns health and especially when it concerns the dogs in my breeding program.

I have already mentioned that mistakes have been made and further witch hunting is not 'socially savvy' and I ask it to stop.

Again, you are the one attacking the other breeder, continuing to make comments like the above, and the you ask others to stop? You stop, others will. You claim she didn't contact you, she said you didn't respond to her requests. One is not being honest, no one can prove who, but really… class shows.

[Jyawle7]

Have you sold your pup yet? Fanconi free?
Thanks,
Janet