Very pretty girl you have there.
Sent from up range, at about 3100 fps
New BABY B girl!
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@AJs:
If everybody went to all the same breeders for their dogs, wouldn't that narrow the gene pool? We see people bring dogs back from Africa purported to be Basenji but that look like village mutts to me…in order to expand the genetics. What I heard at that discussion was the more the merrier and everyone gushing over three dogs that might have B in them.
If DiffEqs is happy with her puppy, I am happy for her. Hope to see lots of photos.you are comparing apples and oranges. The issue here is that someone is supporting a breeder that is known for breeding for profit, not to preserve the heritage of the breed. Breeding dogs that are not tested for Fanconi status is not, in any way, being a steward of the breed.
Going to Africa and importing dogs that are phenotypically, and most likely genotypically basenjis, is good for the health and diversity, and future of the breed. All dogs that are imported and considered for inclusion in the AKC studbook have passed the genetic tests available for the breed recommendations.
I too hope that diffeqs is happy with her puppy
but this thread will be read by lots of people that will never comment on it, and it is important that the message gets out there that no one should be buying puppies from untested parents; and no one should be shelling over money to people breeding puppies for profit. -
Wow, this topic is turning nasty.
Can't you just be happy for diff_eqs?
Anyways, congrats, and she looks beautiful!
Some people are just crazy :p When i first came on here i almost felt judged that i didn't have a purebred basenji, not cool at all…this should be a place for learning and sharing about the breed....not gettin gon someones case just because it came from a bad breeder or she thought of a cool name...w/e I hope Diff_eqs has a great time with her new pup and I hope to see lots and lots of photos! Congrats!!
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Some people are just crazy :p When i first came on here i almost felt judged that i didn't have a purebred basenji, not cool at all…this should be a place for learning and sharing about the breed....not gettin gon someones case just because it came from a bad breeder or she thought of a cool name...w/e I hope Diff_eqs has a great time with her new pup and I hope to see lots and lots of photos! Congrats!!
Apparently, lots of people come to this forum, and think the same way, especially in the beginning. It definitely is a place for learning and sharing about the breed…but sometimes there is education that needs to happen in a forum like this, that may hurt someone's feelings. No one likes to be told they made a poor decision...but by pointing out WHY it is a bad decision, we might be able to help someone else before they purchase, and fall in love with their puppy, who turns out to die of complications of Fanconi before they have had the dog for seven years.
When you come to a forum like this, you can pick and choose what you want to read...but you can't pick and choose what other people want to say. This IS education, even if you don't think it is valuable to you...other people might...
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I don't think anyone has a problem with the name Red Arrow, the problem is with the use of the kennel name Cambria which was registered with AKC to a specific person for his entire lifetime and was poached by an unscrupulous person who saw an opportunity to cash in on someone else's hard work and reputation when that person could not defend themselves because they were deceased. In 2004, AKC and BCOA put a stop to this by retiring the name in honor of the hard work and dedication to the breed that the original and true owner of the name put in.
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I am well aware of them NOT being the true Cambria dogs. I did enough research. However, Sandy has been using this name for over 20 years, and she highly recommended for me to continue that practice, and no, the name has not been retired.
It is a fact that this kennel name was retired and for exactly this reason, this person using it and trying to capitalize on a well known, well breed line of Basenjis. She has been using that name for over 20 years, much to the dismay of the rest of the Basenji Fancy. And that is why it BCOA (Basenji Club of America) petitioned AKC to "retire" the name and no longer accept dogs being registered with that as a Kennel name. And AKC agreed…..
Obviously you can purchase a puppy from anyone you want, but had you done research into this person and talked to other responsible breeders about this person, I would dare say you would have reached a different conclusion.
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Whether the puppy is a "just" a pet or not really does not make it any less important to strive to get the best quality health and temperament. In fact, I really cannot understand the attitude that because animal is going to be "just" a pet all care for quality should go right out the window. All my dogs are pets (companions) first and foremost. They are part of my family, and not just my household, my whole family, when I visit relatives they ask how they are doing. My grandparents and aunts have come on vacation to dog shows with us. As such, I want them to be as healthy as possible for as long as possible. My eldest is now 12 years old, and you can see the gray on him and I know that I have less years left with him than I have already spent with him. I am glad that I did my homework though before I got him and chose a line with dogs that lived into their teens because I don't want to say goodbye anytime soon. So here I am finding myself wiping tears out of my eyes because I am thinking of my dogs' mortality and thinking of how my grandmother who just passed in December even 3 days before her death was still telling everyone stories of Nicky and his ability to wail like banshee when he felt he was abondoned with strangers and I just can't grasp how anyone would cheat themselves of that time or those memories by not doing everything they could to find a breeder who breeds for health, temperament, longevity.
Lvoss, I agree with you one hundred percent, that the health and temperament of the dog is of utmost importance. I saw both of the puppy's parents and was completely in love with her mom's temperament and personality. All of the older dogs that Sandy has are well over 12, 14 and even one that is 19 years old. That by itself tells me that the dogs of that line tend to live long, and that, believe it or not, was one of the deciding factors. So the "temperament and longevity" that you mentioned are there 100%. As far as being members of the family, I agree 150% with you on that. My parents call my dogs "the grandkids" and when they call me they always "talk" to the dogs on the phone, and my brother often calls me just to see how Lana (she is his favorite) is doing. So our dogs are definitely members of the family and then some.
When I was young, we fostered a dog, who, unfortunately, was able to share only a year of his life with us before an incurable condition took him. As much as it hurt to lose him, I know that every second of happiness and love that he gave us was worth it. So, I'd rather have a dog that only lives to be 5 or 7 but is an amazing friend than a dog that lives to be 20 and is just a dog with no personality and nothing to offer. That said, I will do everything in my power to assure that all of my dogs are healthy and happy. I will do all the necessary health testing, including Fanconi, which I already ordered online, although the puppy is not coming home for a few weeks. I do want to thank you for your input and thoughts on the matter, I just think that the breeders who breed "pet quality" and not "show quality" dogs, or the ones that breed for "personality" deserve a chance too.
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It is a fact that this kennel name was retired and for exactly this reason, this person using it and trying to capitalize on a well known, well breed line of Basenjis. She has been using that name for over 20 years, much to the dismay of the rest of the Basenji Fancy. And that is why it BCOA (Basenji Club of America) petitioned AKC to "retire" the name and no longer accept dogs being registered with that as a Kennel name. And AKC agreed…..
Obviously you can purchase a puppy from anyone you want, but had you done research into this person and talked to other responsible breeders about this person, I would dare say you would have reached a different conclusion.
So I take it that the general consensus here is that this breeder is highly irresponsible when it comes to breeding and not testing for health? I was also not aware that Cambria name was retired. I do know that there are at least two other people in the breeding business who use that name that were not part of the original Cambria breeding. It's not the dog's fault though that she comes from someone with ill reputation. She has a great personality and should grow up to be an amazing dog.
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I enjoy how Much the people on here that "SEEM" to some of you that they are being "Mean" I mean really people, Its offering FREE and YEARS or Experienced Education for anyone who may be interested in hearing what is True and Honest Education. This is why I LOVE so this Forum, I (unlike some on here which makes no sense) Enjoy HONEST Opinions and concerns, How else do we learn? And Isnt it Just the reason everyone has joined the Forum? For Education, Advice, Concerns, to Express feelings and look for the Help that many of the breeders and Vets and LOOOOONG Time Pure Bred and NOT Pure Bred Basenji Owners on here. I Really Hope anyone who reads these responses, realizes completely that it is not at all Trolling or Trying to "hurt Feelings" or be "Happy for you" Of course we are JUST Looking out for you and your Basenji Family by offering the best information and Advice so we dont have to suffer along side you tears and all if something were to go wrong down the road. Thats all. Its completely out of Love and Concern. No one is going to Force you to do anything or kick you off the forum because they dont like ur breeder, its only Offering the Advice, Education, Concern and Opinions you are Looking for by joining the forum in the first place. Am I right? Take every opinion into consideration, make your own decisions of course, but don't be Angry or "Sad" Because educated people are offering their knowledge to you. ALL are welcome here and its an AMAZING Site!! But do know, Nothing will be sugar coated, it will always be Sincere Education/Advice to BETTER YOU and your B Family Only… FEELINGS Aside. I hope all goes well for you and your family and you find the most PERFECT Basenji Addition to your family that is Happy Healthy and Amazing! (As all B's Should be!) And again, no one here is trying to hurt anyone else... lol thats just silly.
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Ok, fine, maybe I am convinced… Here's the question then: if I end up not getting this puppy because some of you are so adamant about it, does anyone know of any good breeder in California that still has puppies available? (For personal reasons, this decision was made a long time ago, and we do not want to wait for another year to get another dog)
Pat, do you have any puppies this season? Red girl, to be exact?
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You still don't get it. If you did then you realize that it is just as important for a pet basenji to come from health tested lines and that it should not be the new owner's responsibility to test after the fact and hold their breath and hope for best.
All the "show breeders" you so easily disregard, place most of their puppies as pets. Breeding for the best does not mean every puppy goes to a show home, and the breeders that I know would much rather a good pet home where their puppy will true companion for their family then a show home where they pup will be sent off with some handler just to win a title. That said, these same breeders are quite picky about their homes believing the home has to be at least as good as their own otherwise there is no reason to place them.
I just can't agree about only have a dog for 5-7 years, the heart break is just too much for me. It is also something I would never want for a person who bought a puppy for me.
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The best place to start is the BCOA breeder referral page, http://www.basenji.org/PUBLIC/BreederDirectory.htm
In addition to that you can look at the Basenji Club of Northern California website, http://www.norcalbasenjis.org/BREEDERDIRECTORY.html and the South Coast Basenji Fanciers website, http://southcoastbasenji.org/7401.html
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You still don't get it. If you did then you realize that it is just as important for a pet basenji to come from health tested lines and that it should not be the new owner's responsibility to test after the fact and hold their breath and hope for best.
All the "show breeders" you so easily disregard, place most of their puppies as pets. Breeding for the best does not mean every puppy goes to a show home, and the breeders that I know would much rather a good pet home where their puppy will true companion for their family then a show home where they pup will be sent off with some handler just to win a title. That said, these same breeders are quite picky about their homes believing the home has to be at least as good as their own otherwise there is no reason to place them.
I just can't agree about only have a dog for 5-7 years, the heart break is just too much for me. It is also something I would never want for a person who bought a puppy for me.
I get it just fine, and I never said I disagreed with that. I am starting to regret getting into this whole discussion. All I wanted was to share the joy of getting a long-wanted puppy girl, not a discussion of how irresponsible I am. I made a decision based on the information available to me at the time. Had I been aware of some of the things that were said here today, I might have made a different decision. I tried posting some questions on other parts of the forum, but never got a response from anyone, so I deleted the threads and went with my own guts. I wish there was a better way of communicating issues and concerns and getting response back… Then some of the decisions (at least on my part) would have been different, and there would be no need to have nasty discussions like this one or to accuse me for being irresponsible and "not getting it."
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If the posts were made at the same time a spammer hit, sometimes people just don't see them so you can always go in and "bump" your post by replying to it. Sometimes people don't look because the title doesn't grab their attention, you can go in a make a new post with a different title.
I never saw any posts from you asking for any information about finding a responsible breeder. Could be you posted in December which was just an awful month for me.
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If the posts were made at the same time a spammer hit, sometimes people just don't see them so you can always go in and "bump" your post by replying to it. Sometimes people don't look because the title doesn't grab their attention, you can go in a make a new post with a different title.
I never saw any posts from you asking for any information about finding a responsible breeder. Could be you posted in December which was just an awful month for me.
Well, Lvoss, thank you for posting the breeder page info. My only concern is that now it might be too late to get a puppy this season, as they are probably all spoken for. As I said, for various personal reasons, I do not wish to wait another year. Any suggestions?
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When you talk about you doing the testing rather than requiring that of the breeder then to me that is "not getting it". Responsible breeders test before they bring puppies into the world. Buyers who want pets should demand that any puppy they choose is from health tested parents and not be saddle with that responsibility themselves though any testing they do will help a responsible breeder better their breeding program. Once you take that puppy home, can you honestly say you would return it if it tested Affected? What happens if it is one of the late onset diseases instead of Fanconi where we have a test and you can find out relatively quickly?
These are not just questions for you but anyone who reads this thread and is in a similar position where the breeder tells them they will have to do the testing themselves.
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Well, Lvoss, thank you for posting the breeder page info. My only concern is that now it might be too late to get a puppy this season, as they are probably all spoken for. As I said, for various personal reasons, I do not wish to wait another year. Any suggestions?
My suggestion is to start contacting breeders and be open to searching neighboring states. It is true that it is late in the season to start looking but that doesn't mean there won't be an available puppy it just means that you are going to have to work harder to find one. As you start making calls you will probably find that if a breeder doesn't have a puppy available they may know someone else that does but it will require spending some time doing the leg work.
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lvoss is exactly right - the breeder you choose should be doing all the testing prior to breeding that you did for your girl Lana when you were planning to breed her. All the prospective pet owners who would have purchased a puppy from you would have had a pup that came from fully health tested parents. I guess for me I wonder why if you were willing to do it the right way for your prospective puppy buyers, why would you not want the same thing of any breeder you yourself purchase a puppy from?
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:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:
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Ok, fine, maybe I am convinced… Here's the question then: if I end up not getting this puppy because some of you are so adamant about it, does anyone know of any good breeder in California that still has puppies available? (For personal reasons, this decision was made a long time ago, and we do not want to wait for another year to get another dog)
Pat, do you have any puppies this season? Red girl, to be exact?
I do not have any puppies, as the litter I was going to breed didn't work out and you know, I had people on my waiting list that I had to contact and try and find another responsible breeder for them to contact or of course they had the choice of waiting for the next breeding. In fact, I have someone on my reservation list that is now been on my list for two years and hopefully the litter that I co-bred this fall will have their perfect puppy in it. Sometimes what we want and what we can get is not always the same… Just because for what ever reason you want a puppy this year, life sometimes deals you a different hand. I just can't image going to a irresponsible breeder that doesn't health test and is a pure for profit breeder, because you are too late for a puppy from a responsible breeder.
And I am sure that this person told you all about how healthly her lines are... here is a fact about Fanconi. There is a breeder on the East Coast (and this is just one of many of the same stories) - that for years and years claimed that her lines were free of Fanconi because she never had an Affected dog. And that was the case, she didn't have or produce an Affected dog. Along comes the DNA linkage test and as a responsible breeder she starts testing her dogs. Low and behold, all of them start coming up as Carriers. Had she NOT tested and kept breeding, now breeding Carrier to Carrier, Fanconi Affected would have been coming up all over the place. So, it is not just good enough to say, "hey look at all my old dogs I have here, certainly I have no problems with Fanconi"... just does not cut it any longer.
Also the other person that was using the Cambria name was/is connected to Mountain Springs but their kennel was on the East Coast.
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The responsible breeder vs. BYB or Puppymill is a war that has been going on for a long time.
Health testing and lifetime responsibility for the puppies are the lines in the sand. Responsible breeders have been trying to figure out how to stop the puppymills and BYB's for a long time. Most of the dogs that end up in rescue are from these BYB's and puppymills. They also breed without regard to improving the breed, so they perpetuate problems like fanconi, chd, etc.
Every time someone buys a puppy from a BYB or puppymill, it helps them continue.To see someone who could be such a good home, who has experience with testing, and who has ties to the basenji community go to a BYB is very scary.
It means that even those with education can be drawn in by the BYB's and the responsible breeders are losing.
People get very passionate about this war.Cambria is the name of the kennel of Bob Mankey and Jack Schaefer. They did a lot for the breed. Literally, they wrote the book. Bob Mankey died, and there is a lot of reverence attached to the name Cambria. To have that diluted by other poaching the name is something else people get very passionate about.
Why don't you start your puppy search by calling Ryder's breeder? The basenji community is pretty tight knit. You may have to make several calls, but that seems like a good place to start.
I hope you can see that, even though people are getting emotional, it is not a direct attack on you, and people are only trying to educate you and find out why you chose the way you did. If you can answer some questions about why you chose this pup, it can help the entire fancy figure out how to draw people to responsible breeders and away from BYB's.
-Nicole
