Leash training

[skookum9]

Hello to all. I'm new here although I have seen this sight before. I am thinking of breeding my little girl and thought that joining this site might give me some more insight into all that I will need for this.

In viewing this thread I was wondering if anyone here uses or recommends the use of a pinch collar. I had never used one before owning my little Molly but have found it such a useful tool that I cannot imagine raising a basenji without using one from time to time. I found it to be much more effective than a choke chain, and therefore much more puppy friendly. There is a trainer who recommended the use of them and I am glad for his suggestion. Now that she has some understanding and respect, I no longer use the pinch collar since it is no longer necessary. But I found it to be a tool which increased both my enjoyment of a wonderful companion and her enjoyment of more freedom for a more obedient little girl. Molly loved to tug at her leash but once I went to the pinch collar I was able to stop most of her pulling and now she is a joy to walk. I also use a lead that was promoted by a trainer by the name of Dan Marr and it has also been a very useful tool for teaching her leash obedience, but it works more like a cinch around her belly.

Would love to hear what others have found with these kinds of tools.

[agilebasenji]

Are you asking about using a pinch collar on a basenji puppy? I have never used a pinch collar on any dog in my house. I have used head halters on the lab and malinois#2, but I've always just used soft nylon martingales on the basenjis. (And the show chains when we're doing conformation.) My toolbox is pretty basic. I use a marker/clicker, treats and some creativity.

[lvoss]

@agilebasenji:

Are you asking about using a pinch collar on a basenji puppy? I have never used a pinch collar on any dog in my house. I have used head halters on the lab and malinois#2, but I've always just used soft nylon martingales on the basenjis. (And the show chains when we're doing conformation.) My toolbox is pretty basic. I use a marker/clicker, treats and some creativity.

I agree. I have used head halters but my basenjis found them aversive. Now, if needed recommend a Sensation or Easy Walk harness. For the ones living here, clicker, treats, training time, and patience work wonders. For some of my puppy buyers, the Easy Walk really helped them to then work on the training without allowing their dogs to practice the bad behavior.

[skookum9]

Yes, the pinch collars, but not so much a puppy as a young dog. My girl is 2 1/2 now and I no longer find much need to use the pinch collar but it sure was a great tool in her training. I had never used one before either so I tried it out on my own arm before I would try it on my dog. It didn't hurt me at all so I gave it a go on Molly and was well pleased. I am asking because I don't see anyone commenting about using any control tools like this, only the use of clickers and treats. I'm not that smitten with the idea of a treat in exchange for good behavior and would rather reward my dog with praise and attention. This is only speaking for myself as I know that many have had great results by use of treats. Learning to train horses has taught me volumes about training dogs and the pinch collars work a lot like the "pressure and release" system with horses.

I thank you for your reply because that is what I'm looking for, the way others make things work. When I first got my basenji I knew I needed a better way to work with her than my parents had for their basenji. I found it to be most difficult to find a training method recommended for basenji's and became more than a little frustrated by that. I think that basenji's make absolutely wonderful companions for anyone who is willing to spend the time to build that special relationship with their dog, if they have the right "tools" to train them. I found some things that really worked for me but I know that there will always be room for improvement and look forward to learning what others have had success with.

[lvoss]

Postive Reinforcement training which often uses clickers (secondary reinforcers) and treats(primary reinforcers) because they are easy to use is based on scientifically backed learning theory. There are other reinforcers that can and often are used but treats are often easiest when beginning a behavior. It does not mean that you always need to use treats or have treats on you for the dog to perform the behavior.

[agilebasenji]

skookum9,
Before you write off the whole clicker/treats thing, read Reaching the Animal Mind by Karen Pryor. My local library had a copy so you may not even have to buy it.

Personally, I haven't really found basenjis hard to train. They can be difficult to motivate and are sensitive to their environment, but mine love their training sessions. My training tends to focus on agility which is more involved than most pet-owners do. I don't do a lot of obedience training, but my dogs know the basics.

[skookum9]

With any dog that I have ever worked with, a simple rule is to be smarter than the dog when training. I think it's just that basenji's are that much smarter than other dogs that I have worked with. And the fact that they are much more independant in their thinking than other common breeds. It may not be harder for you to train them but I do think they take more patience and understanding than most other breeds. It is very easy to make a mistake with them and you must be willing to learn their needs.

It's not that I have written off the use of clicker training. I would love to learn a better understanding of it. I happen to like the success of the method I have used and am of the old school thinking that if it's not broke then don't fix it. The whole reward with treats idea has never worked for me, probably mostly because it goes against some of my core beliefs. But that doesn't mean I don't think it won't work. I don't believe it is the best way for me at this time. Largely because I am unskilled in it and don't have enough confidence in it.

I do not know how to apply clicker training effectively for walking on lead. But I do know first hand how well a pinch collar works for teaching a basenji to not pull on its leash. Before using one I thought perhaps I would need better understanding on how to use it but after trying it out on myself first, I learned that it took less skill that a choke chain and was much more effective. Before basenji's, I would say that a choke chain and about 15 minutes is all it would take for me to have a dog that would heel well. With my basenji I was constantly having to correct her with the choke chain and she just wouldn't "fall in". After moving to the pinch collar it only took the occassional correction and she got the idea and quickly found pleasure in her obedience. I look forward to applying the cinch lead that I now have the next time I need to train a basenji. It seems to work even better than the pinch collar but it's really hard to tell because she is already so well behaved from before.

As I said in my first post, I am here because I want to learn more. And that means that I am open to all ways that others are suggesting that works for them. I will enjoy hearing about all of the skills and techniques that others have that are willing to share them with me. Perhaps even a thick-headed old guy like myself can still learn a few new tricks, with the help of kind people from here.

[lvoss]

I disagree about the use of pinch collars. I see many people using them that are using them incorrectly and in ways that are down right harmful to the dog. If you ever gave a leash correction with the pinch collar then you are using it incorrectly and can cause harm to the dog.

With clicker training the worst that is likely to happen from incorrect use is a fat dog which is a reversible condition.

[skookum9]

I'm afraid that I do not understand your comment on the use of a pinch collar for leash correction being bad. Please explain so I can better understand what you are saying. The pinch collar is designed to work as a leash correction tool, perhaps I missunderstand what you mean. Having first tested the collar out on my own forearm, I know that a reasonable snap with the pinch collar will in no way harm my dog, so the idea that it can be harmful is confusing to me. And while a fat dog is something that can be corrected, bad behaviors take time and the damage done to the health by obesity can be permanant and even terminal.

I have seen some wonderful things done by clicker training and I have seen some less than wonderful things done with it. I'm certainly not against clicker training but I assume that the results of it have a lot to do with your understanding of how to make it work for you. I don't mean to appear simple or ignorant but truthfully, I guess I really am. I appreciate the input here and look forward to hearing and learning more. I hope to better understand what you meant by correct and incorrect use of a pinch collar.

[doodle]

@dmey:

Does anyone have any advice on how to better leash train. Ayo and I have been walking twice a day everyday for months and he still pulls, Ive tried the stopping tecnique and only moving forward when he stops pulling and also turning around and walking in the opposite direction but , he l well for a while, but I still havent been able to have a continuous walk without him pilling me oof to the side or stopping and jerking. It gets to where my arm hurts after walking… I know I am doing something wrong but I dont know what...

Hope you find something which works for you. I have had trouble teaching my bitch to walk properly on the lead. She is 18 months old and is very inquisitive and excitable. Unfortunately she is not interested in treats at all when we are outside and I have absolutely no chance if she sees another dog as she always wants to say hello. Please let me know if you find something which works for you. In my case I haven't tried a slip lead or pich collar. She gets so caught up in the moment, I think she would just hurt herself.

[agilebasenji]

Skookum9
Here's a video of Zest's first agility trial. This was almost a year ago and this weekend (after a several months break) she got her first Open (second level) qualifying run. Yes, in this first trial she's a bit distracted by people in the ring, but she stays with me and does the course. People in the ring are a bit odd for her since she's trained not in class but in my backyard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBilEocPpfM

her third trial

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UosSPDLhAws&feature=channel

(this shows what she's really capable of!!)

and the Thanksgiving run
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7bOOepwdhY&feature=related
you'll see she was much faster off the start line than I was expecting!

I don't know how to get these sorts of behavoirs using a leash and collar. But with a clicker I can let her know that she's doing what I want even if she's at a distance. Interesting discussion.

[lvoss]

@skookum9:

I'm afraid that I do not understand your comment on the use of a pinch collar for leash correction being bad. Please explain so I can better understand what you are saying. The pinch collar is designed to work as a leash correction tool, perhaps I missunderstand what you mean.

The pinch collar is not meant to used to give a "pop" like people do with choke chains. It can cause trachea damage as can choke chains and humans wrists are not nearly as sensitive and delicate as a trachea. A trachea is made of cartiledge not bone. There is a difference in how the correction is supposed to be delivered and for loose leash walking the dog gives itself the correction every time it tightens the leash.

In addition to physical harm, pinch collars are not recommended by the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior because of the high risk of adverse effects.

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/punishment%20guidelines-aversives%20effects-definitions.pdf

@skookum9:

And while a fat dog is something that can be corrected, bad behaviors take time and the damage done to the health by obesity can be permanant and even terminal.

I made the fat statement kind of jokingly. I adjust my dog's food to take into account what they are given during training and that is exactly what anyone should do. You don't even have to use "treats" my dogs earn a good portion of their daily meals working for them.

As for bad behaviors, no matter what training methods you use a part of that is managing situations so that your dog is not practicing bad behaviors while you teach the dog appropriate behaviors. That is why I recommend a Sensation harness to many people so they can walk their dog without it practicing pulling while they are also working on training loose leash walking.

[skookum9]

I guess I sort of look at the whole punishment question the same way I look at those who question the value of spanking their children. If punishment is issued in anger or without thought, then it is likely that there will be harm, either physical or mental. But if a clear and calm head is used as it was intended, then I still see "punishment", as it was called in the link that was given, as being a very valuable tool. A well behaved dog, like a well behaved child, is a treasure and a blessing. An unruly dog or child is an embarassment to all. I am no expert trainer and do not have the skills to accomplish what I am certain many have with the use of clickers and treats and I would likely only cause myself and my dog more grief by trying. I have seen this done and don't want to become that way. If I knew as much as some of you then perhaps I too would choose this way. For me, the positive results of the use of a pinch collar for leash training is undeniable. But again, my compliments to those who have experienced great success with other ways. That is why I am here is to learn other ways than my own to accomplish things with better results.

I'm just a construction worker and spend a good portion of my days on the job or travelling to and from it and then come home to work on my farm. My time to spend in training with my dogs is limited and I much prefer playing with them instead. My basenji is mostly going to be my saddle buddy so we can spend many happy hours just running around together. I do hope to some day reach a point where I can use her to hunt chuckar, pheasant and hungarian partridge but I doubt that I will ever master this. Basenji's are great hunters and I think that due to a lack of understanding in training a lot of their potential in the field is largely unused.

Basenji's are about the most beautiful dog there is and their physique is unparallelled. They are an amazing creation and I am completely enamored with my little girl. I will never acheive the results that have been performed in the agility ring, partly because I cannot dedicate my life completely to that but mostly because I lack the capacity to possess such skills. I thank you all for your input and look forward to hearing ideas on how to better accomplish my goals with my little Molly. I wish I knew and understood even a fraction of what you guys do.

[lvoss]

In the thread on house breaking you have already described seeing the adverse of effects of punishment in your girl.

You keep saying that you have seen disasterous results of clicker training. Can you elaborate on what those are?

The article I posted is the position statement of professional animal behaviorists and is based on a lot of experience.

[skookum9]

In reply:

The only thing I posted about adverse effects of punishment with my girl was using too loud of a voice, too much verbal correction. What I found was that she didn't respond well to being yelled at or shouted at, a simple correction of "no" or "bad girl" was all that was needed. Either loud or soft would be consideredcorrection but in her case, less was more. This doesn't mean that I had a bad result from correcting her but instead from over-correcting her. My little girl has about the best disposition I have ever seen in a basenji, and I'm not the only one who thinks so. This good personality is what she was bred for and the reason I am thinking of breeding her. But even with this excellent personallity, she still has plenty of the little basenji rebel in her and does not like to be over-corrected and has taught me much about that. I hope this makes some sense.

The best example of bad clicker training I've witnessed is that which my mother tried using. She always talked about how happy she was with the results but all I ever saw was a very spoiled, obese and unruly dog. The dog got its way any and every time it wanted and was always getting treats because it would temporarily behave. Any time it wanted a treat, all it had to do was act up and then the training treats would come out. Being around this obnoxious dog was annoying at best. This is only the best example, I have seen other similar results from other people. I do think that in the hands of the right people this is a good method but I think you need more understanding of what you are doing to get the same results as can be taught by other ways.

I appreciate the article that you posted but I suspect that you and I read two totally different things out of it. I would only say that an obedient dog is a pleasure not only to the owner/trainer as well as to the people who are around it but also to the dog itself. I love dogs and I love children but I do not like to be around either if they are not well mannered, or at least in the process of being trained for better manners. I do not believe that reasonable use of pinch collars or choke chains is bad for the overall life of the dog and I did not read anything in the article that suggested otherwise.

Again, I would love to hear more applications of how to obtain great results in dog training. For me, obedience is my main concern, especially off leash. I and my neighbors all have various animals, from chickens to rabbits to sheep to all sorts of animals. It would be a horrible result if my little girl decided to chase my wife's wallaby and I couldn't get her stopped. Twice when she was younger she escaped my control and took off around the neighborhood. One time I caught her with a chicken in her mouth, luckily it was still alive and my neighbor has a lot of patience. Another time an employee from the local animal shelter found her on the rural highway that runs a distance from my place and decided to take her home and keep her. I was very fortunate that I got her back that time. The woman told us that the only reason she didn't keep her is that she was tearing her house apart trying to get away to get back home to me.

I cannot risk a disobedient dog, I will lose her permanently if I do not make her mind. I know how to do this by use of a correction method and it is this method that now keeps her alive. I know that there are some people who do not like this method and I'm sorry for that but I value my dog and will protect her in spite of that, whatever it takes. I do not oppose the clicker method and I do like hearing of more and more positive results. The more positive results I see and hear, the more likely that I will begin to apply them in my own training. But I will not stop the way I currently do just because some people don't like it. It is a method that works and has worked for generations and will continue to work for generations longer. Also, if the use of the collar bothered her I know she would show at least some sign of being reluctant to wear it but instead she happily puts her head into it, even now when she no longer needs it when we walk. I look forward to all the great ideas and advice that I will be hearing on this forum about good training and I hope you all will keep it coming. Please don't ask me to give up on what I know works, that won't happen. At least not until I find a better way for me and my little girl.

And thanks to all who have put in the advice and experiences in this forum, I have been enjoying reading the various posts and will apply this knowledge to my own life with my basenji.

[lvoss]

The issues you site in opposition of clicker training can be said for the incorrect application of any training method and truly a fat dog is a way better outcome then what I have personally witnessed with the use of choke chains and pinch collars. The spoiled and unruly was probably going to be the outcome with or without the clicker training.

I watched a "trainer", paid professional, using traditional punishment based methods take a happy, bouncy puppy and turn it into a snarling, aggressive mess in a matter of 5 minutes. The person applied the techniques in exactly the way they are recommended and the results were escalation to the point of air snaps in a 4 month old puppy. The outcome is not always so dramatic but I have seen it over and over again. When you use punishment, if the dog does not comply you are told to apply more force to get the result otherwise the dog "wins", in reality, you just start a cycle of escalation that if the dog does not comply you will either end up with a serious bite or a dead dog, most likely both since a serious bite will probably result in the death of the dog. It has nothing to do with having a level head and applying punishment calmly, the person who was training that puppy never lost their temper and was calmly applying the aversive but the puppy was not complying and as the puppy got more frustrated, fearful, confused, and hurt, it escalated to aggression to try to make the trainer stop.

In clicker training, the dog chooses to do the desired behavior and get rewarded or not to do the behavior and get no reward. That does not mean it gets do whatever it wants. It means that there are other management tools being used such as a leash, crate, baby gate, etc to limit what the dog has access to while training. If a person is rewarding bad behavior then they will see more of it, whether they are clicker training or not.

[lvoss]

@skookum9:

In reply:
Please don't ask me to give up on what I know works, that won't happen. At least not until I find a better way for me and my little girl.

I am not asking you to stop using the methods you are using, though I urge you to seek out positive reinforcement trainers and see how powerful they can be in getting results. I am asking that you not recommend these methods as an easy fix because there are serious adverse effects possible and basenjis have been known to resort to aggressive escalation when punishment based methods are used. It is one the reason why basenjis have a reputation for being "untrainable".

[skookum9]

I'm sorry that you do not approve. I'm also sorry that the method is being blamed for the bad training when it is the trainer who was at fault. When you see something not working, continuing to use it and expecting different results is a sure sign you are not paying attention to the animal. The same is true of the bad examples of clicker training that I've seen. It wasn't the method that was bad, it was the application.

I've learned to apply a lot of my horse training to training my dog and I'm a huge fan of pressure and release. In many ways this is a lot like the clicker/reward training in that something positive happens every time the animal does something right. When I want to train my horse to give his head softly, I begin by pulling down on the lead. I do not pull harder when the horse does not respond immediately, I only continue to maintain the pressure. Not a hard pressure but a constant one. Eventually, the horse will submit, and the instant that it does, all pressure on the lead is released. Thus begins the horses understanding that when it feels pressure all it has to do is submit to the pressure and all the pressure goes away. If you increase the pressure as you are doing it, what you are really telling your horse, or your dog, is that you are a mean and tyrannical person who is not likely trustworthy.

With this said, I would also like to say again that I am not a trainer. I do listen to good advice when it is given though and look forward to all the positive advice I can get.

I am sorry if any of my previous comments were misunderstood and somehow came across as a critisizm of the clicker training methods. I did not mean them as such. I do not believe that I have the skills or the knowledge to train well with that method but by no means do I think that it is a bad method for those that do know or have the time and the intelligence to understand it and learn it. I do not wish to put down anothers way of training, even if it is not for me, at least at this time, and I wish I could convince you of the same about corrective training. You may never agree but I see the corrective training that I use as a positive training method. Please don't be offended by this. I am only here to learn what I can, and I learn much more from more positive comments than from negative critisizm.

[lvoss]

@skookum9:

In many ways this is a lot like the clicker/reward training in that something positive happens every time the animal does something right.

Not true, when the animal does something right then something NEGATIVE CEASES that is not the same as something positive happening.

@skookum9:

When I want to train my horse to give his head softly, I begin by pulling down on the lead. I do not pull harder when the horse does not respond immediately, I only continue to maintain the pressure. Not a hard pressure but a constant one. Eventually, the horse will submit, and the instant that it does, all pressure on the lead is released.

And when this is applied to dogs on a choke chain and when the dog does not submit, and some won't, the dog passes out from lack of oxygen. These are the "correctly" administered outcomes of these techniques. This is how these techniques have been used for years and they are dependent on the animal submitting. When the animal does not submit there are outcomes such as "choking out" and escalation of aggression.

In addition to working with my own dogs, I have put in many hours at my local shelter and worked with hundreds of dogs. I have seen the effectiveness of positive reinforcement training as well as the long term effects of punishment based training. I have seen far too many of the adverse effects of punishment based training to support it.

[skookum9]

Lvoss, I am sorry that I have been unable to convince you of my sincerety in trying to learn more and in my own care and concern for my own dogs. I have done my best to try to inform you and be as cautious and curtious as I know how to be but it seems that you do not have any openness about you and are unwilling to not ridicule and insult. I tried to add only that there were additional options to clicker training, not to say anything bad about your way. I see no further need to try and explain myself to you as your mind has apparently been made up that I am a bad owner and that is that. I would like to end this discussion now before you make it even more personal than you already have. You have succeeded in silencing my input in your forum, you win. I hope that it is okay with you that I should still view and learn what I can from this forum. I did not come here to be accused or insulted, I came here to learn what I could but I do not see how one can learn anything positive when I only see negativity. I am sorry that my comments were apparently offensive to you, they were certainly not intended as such, I will try to remember not to make comments that you can read in the near future.