@KhaiPan Pam and I are both stubborn opinionated people and without mutual respect, we'd be in constant battle. Instead, I love her. I watch her utter devotion to the dogs, to doing things right, to helping anyone who needs help. She isn't stuck in any idea... given proof and research, she'll reconsider. She is calming. 🙂 Knowing you have someone personally in your corner navigating this helps a lot. Glad you contacted her.
My poor boy . . .
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i also vote for getting another boy basenji. Personally I think getting a dog every 5 years works beautifully (for the dogs and for performance reasons), so I'd suggest a boy in the 4-5 year old range. give or take a little. BRAT has lots of nice dogs or you may want to call Linda E, or another good breeder, and see if they have any retired show dogs or boomarang (returned pups) that are looking for home.
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Earlier this year, my wife and I decided that Heidi seemed awful sad without a mate, since Skeeter passed away last year. So, we started looking at BRAT boys that were available. But everyone we seemed to like was turned down by BRAT, because Heidi was 10 and we were trying for boys that were 4 or 5 or 6. We had found one in the next state, but we were told "Sorry he's too young"
Then BRAT contacted us with a boy that was 9 years old down in Dallas. His name was MAX and he wasn't even listed with the normal web page on the BRAT website. That was a problem for me not actually seeing him displayed with all his information. We just got a few emails describing him and before you know it, we were driving South to meet another transporter driving up from Dallas.
So we picked up MAX and brought him home. I had assumed with MAX would be paperwork telling us more about him. What we got, told us almost nothing. A few receipts from Animal hospitals all within the last few months. So I emailed the BRAT Coordinator and asked where the information that would have been listed on the website concerning his birthdate etc. She told me they didn't have anything and finding us to take him saved her having to create something for the website. So, this was a bad start for MAX and I felt we were a convenient place to dump him.
But, we are loving people and thought we would make the best of it. He was totaling house broken, so the biggest issue in the beginning was not a problem. However, Heidi did not seem to accept him and he didn't seem to care at all. After a while Heidi tried to get closer to him, but he never seemed to respond. To make a long story short, after six month we have to keep these two dogs separated, because they were getting into daily very serious fights. and when I say serious, it?s very deep growling, blood drawing (sometimes) fights that have them apart unless we are together with them. We have a very large back yard and he never goes out on his own and basically is not the dog we were briefly described in the Coordinators emails.
So anyway, we have to change something and I really don't know what to do? We?re not people that will turn their backs on a basenji, but we certainly can't abandon Heidi, our first born. I have heard,, you give up you BRAT adoption fee and we understand that, but this poor boy has probably been bounced around all his life and he's almost 10. Please someone give us some advice . . . thanks
Jerry & Dana in Kansas City
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How sad. For everyone involved.
Have you tried contacting your BRAT co-ordinator? Or a behaviorist might help.
Sometimes dogs just don't get along even if you've done everything right.
I really wish I had some sort of magical advice and could make it all better.
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But everyone we seemed to like was turned down by BRAT, because Heidi was 10 and we were trying for boys that were 4 or 5 or 6. We had found one in the next state, but we were told "Sorry he's too young"
I really don't understand BRAT's attitude on this. In my experience it is easier to integrate two dogs with an age separation than two that are close in age. I got a two year old male (not from BRAT) to keep my nine year old girl company after I lost her 16 year old female companion. It wasn't "love at first sight", but they tolerated each other and grew to have a friendly relationship.
I agree with you that your first dog is your primary responsibility. I hope you can find something that works out for you, as it doesn't sound like the current situation is improving. Best scenario is probably to re home Max. Heidi may be so happy to see him go she won't be looking for a new companion!
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I am so sorry you had this sad issue with BRAT. I would contact the coordinator in your state. They will help you. Please, let me know if I can be of any assistance.
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Please remember that there are always two sides to every story.
debbi j.
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Let me see if I get this right. You took a dog prior to it being listed (and btw, BRAT does not, nor do most rescues, list EVERY DOG– some they get applicants in that seem a good fit and if it works, why list? Hell, CA rescue rarely has ANY of their dogs listed but they place plenty.), you drive down to GET the dog with minimal info, and then are mad they don't have more info for you? Was there some reason you took a dog when you felt you only wanted it with more info? In reality, many rescues have pretty minimal info, btw. The coordinator said they didn't HAVE any more info. CREATED didn't mean she would get a psychic to discover his past, it meant simply create a page with the info they HAVE and what they have observed. You know that right? So you actually GOT what info they had.
Then, you started having problems. Did you notify BRAT IMMEDIATELY for help? You do know they would have helped, worked with you and perhaps helped PREVENT the situation from escalating to the level it is now, right? So, when DID you contact BRAT, or have you even YET contacted them before smearing them on a public board? Because honestly, I can't imagine they wouldn't have speedily done whatever you wanted, whether it was take the dog back or help you.
Instead, it seems YOU let 2 dogs escalate to this, then try to blame it on BRAT for not giving you more information? I mean, no where do I see the 2 dogs issues being a BRAT issue. Any 2 dogs on earth can not mix. Any 2 dogs. That is a reality you do realize right? SO unless you think this dog was aggressive to other animals and BRAT hid it or lied, please explain to me how this is BRAT's problem. Especially since you didn't contact them immediately when problems began to help work things out. You didn't come on the board even for help on how to manage it. Nope– lets wait til the 2 dogs hate each other, little to no chance of ever getting them back together, and blame it on BRAT not having him on a web page before you took him. Okay then.
Then, let me ask what was in the original info that would make you think ANY DOG likes to go out in a backyard alone? Please educate me to what misinformation you were given to indicate that? Because you have clearly said BRAT mislead you and I'd like to know precisely how.
Also, let me be honest. When you first started this thread last year and suggested confining your BLIND SICK DOG to living OUTSIDE because of leaking urine, I decided to keep out of it and left the thread. I was so horrified that you even considered it, I felt sick.
Do this dog a favor. Pick up the phone or email the coordinator, explain you feel duped and want the dog picked up immediately, and let them put it in a home that will call them, get help when needed instead of bad mouthing BRAT and accusing them of making up things, dumping a dog and duping them. You asked for advice. That's mine.
Then BRAT contacted us with a boy that was 9 years old down in Dallas. His name was MAX and he wasn't even listed with the normal web page on the BRAT website. That was a problem for me not actually seeing him displayed with all his information.
So we picked up MAX and brought him home. I had assumed with MAX would be paperwork telling us more about him. What we got, told us almost nothing. A few receipts from Animal hospitals all within the last few months. So I emailed the BRAT Coordinator and asked where the information that would have been listed on the website concerning his birthdate etc. She told me they didn't have anything and finding us to take him saved her having to create something for the website. So, this was a bad start for MAX and I felt we were a convenient place to dump him.
But, we are loving people and thought we would make the best of it. … However, Heidi did not seem to accept him and he didn't seem to care at all. After a while Heidi tried to get closer to him, but he never seemed to respond. To make a long story short, after six month we have to keep these two dogs separated, because they were getting into daily very serious fights. and when I say serious, it?s very deep growling, blood drawing (sometimes) fights that have them apart unless we are together with them. We have a very large back yard and he never goes out on his own and basically is not the dog we were briefly described in the Coordinators emails.
..I have heard,, you give up you BRAT adoption fee and we understand that, but this poor boy has probably been bounced around all his life and he's almost 10.
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Oh dear, judgmental much?
From my point of view, there was some serious miscommunication at the start of all this. Unfortunate for all involved, but at this point irrelevant, as a solution that works for everyone is now paramount. (and hopefully attainable). I concur that contacting BRAT and trying to work something out is the best approach. Fingers crossed you come to a good solution for both humans and Basenjis.
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I guess I should figure someone would get on here to dissect everything I said. I will straighten you out, since you did say "Let me see if I get this right". Absolutely wrong in many instances.
First of all I am not bad mouthing BRAT, but I do feel we were not explained very well and our only experience with BRAT had been the boy SKEETER we picked up nine years ago. We got all his papers and I assumed that was the norm. Sorry, if I have never dealt with a Basenji with no papers. And when we picked him up we got a crate and an envelope with the papers. We were not about to tell someone driving cross country to please wait while we inspect his papers. Off we went and while driving back we saw that all there was were a few animal hospital receipts. I then emailed the coordinator and asked questions. I even got an email from Liz Newton explaining how sometimes they have no information. Now that was the end of this issue and we learned how it is and just decided to make a good home for MAX. One other thing, we did contact Linda, the breeder we got Heidi from and she said she did have a few dogs and instead of us going for that we decided to use Brat, because they have many dogs to place and we were very happy how it had worked in the past.
When we started having problems with MAX getting along with HEIDI, we did not rush to the phone too bother Brat. We knew he was nine years old and we were told he had been fostered for a long time. Not sure how you feel I am blaming Brat for the issues we are having now. And we certainly did not let it escalate to anything. We are trying our best to have these two animals get along. We walk them together we try many ways to get them familiar with each other. And I will admit, HEIDI does allot of low level growling because she is jealous of the way MAX just pushes his way around. He must have been fed from the table in the past 'cause he is constantly pushing his way under our kitchen table looking for scraps, that are never there. But, if she growls enough he starts growling back and then the fight starts. As I said we must be with them if they are together or we keep MAX in one part of the house and Heidi in another.
And your comment on his going in the backyard, yes we were told he loves the outdoors, but the fact is we have to lead him outside ourselves or he just sits on the couch. HEIDI loves to be outside lying around on our deck in the sun, but MAX could care less. Again, he only goes out even for potty, if we take him and he stay for only a minute. We do have a very large backyard and we put their toys out there to try and get them to play outside. Plus, we do not close the door to force them to stay out, that would be mean.
We treat these two dogs with love and affection. They are almost never crated. We try to always keep someone at home, so they don't have to be crated. The only reason we don't contact the coordinator is because MAX has been bounced around allot, so that is why I have explained this in the Forum. I won't even type here my feelings to your remark about our boy "Skeeter" that died last year. We tried everything and he spent many of his last few days at the Vet, just hoping something could be done. And when the Vet would close each day we took him to an all-night Animal Hospital and then back to the Vet in the morning. I did suggest some ideas in our desperation to make his life easier, but in the end we lost. My wife Dana cries still every time we think about him.
Oh one other thing . . . why is it Brat does not like to place a younger Basenji with an older Basenji. That did happen to us, but we didn't fight it, just wondered why?
Jerry & Dana in KC
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1. You straightened me out on nothing… denied words you actually posted (ie claiming you didn't bad mouth brat? You might need to reread what you wrote. Indicating they DUMPED a dog on you, withheld information, gave you a dog not like you expected... forget it.) and doesn't change my view of your post at all.
The continued whine about papers floors me. WTHeck do they matter? INFORMATION about a dog before you get it, big issue. Once you took the dog, exactly what papers did you expect? ALL information about the dog they gave you BEFORE you got it. If you thought they were withholding info, why on earth would you agree to take the dog til you got all the info. In reality, you got all the info. So now you devote half your posts to complaining about information that doesn't exist not being given to you. And it doesn't even make any sense. YOU ALREADY TOOK THE DOG. Why would you expect there to be information on papers you didn't already know?
As for "run to brat"... No you waited til many fights, blood drawn, then came here to blame them for dumping him on you, duping you etc. Getting help FAST from BRAT instead of coming here making accusations was the responsible thing to do. Or simply telling BRAT the dog isn't working out, come get him. Problem solved.
As for older with young, that is a coordinator decision, but my GUESS is that young dogs need young dogs to play with. Many basenji people get 2 pups at a time, many won't place a dog in a home without a similar aged PLAY MATE. I am certain you could have found a younger dog if you had been patient or insisted. Or gone to a byb or puppymill. Your decision to adopt an older dog from BRAT is commendable. But I certainly look to an ACTIVE home before placing a younger dog of any breed that needs a lot of exercise or at least has a young companion dog to give them exercise. A tired dog is a good dog. And really, I am betting if you went outside WITH THE DOG it would love to be out and play.
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Oh dear, judgmental much?
From my point of view, there was some serious miscommunication at the start of all this. Unfortunate for all involved, but at this point irrelevant, as a solution that works for everyone is now paramount. (and hopefully attainable). I concur that contacting BRAT and trying to work something out is the best approach. Fingers crossed you come to a good solution for both humans and Basenjis.
If the judgmental part is my response to putting a sick blind dog outside to live, yeah I am that kind of judgmental.
If it is about the bash on brat, nope. There was NO miscommunication. Person got the info they HAD on the dog. Person took the dog, then whines they can't – what invent things they don't know?. Person blames BRAT because a dog doesn't want to stay outside alone and accuses BRAT of dumping the dog on them and misleading them. You tell me, what was miscommunicated? The person knew what BRAT knew, made a decision to get the dog, then blamed them for not telling them more than they knew. The only communication problem is someone blasting BRAT and the coordinator without giving them ever the courtesy of contacting for help or assistance. The bigger problem is instead of asking for help for the dogs, they spent 90 percent of the post blaming BRAT and whining about losing their adoption fee without ever CONTACTING BRAT.
In a nutshell, if someone posted they had issues with their dogs, clearly stated situations, really wanted HELP instead of bad mouth the rescue, I'd make suggestions. But if it has reached the blood drawing stage, they most likely will have to simply manage these dogs away from each other and are going to resent the dog for those imaginary duping behaviors of BRAT. The dog will definitely fare better in another home that doesn't feel duped, dumped on and is willing to ask for help before it is a crisis.
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Debra! I didn't read his post the way you did at all. Not everybody knows everything that you know about rescue, how it works, etc…I think he just wants some advice about how to move forward. Easy girl....
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The only communication problem is someone blasting BRAT and the coordinator without giving them ever the courtesy of contacting for help or assistance. The bigger problem is instead of asking for help for the dogs, they spent 90 percent of the post blaming BRAT and whining about losing their adoption fee without ever CONTACTING BRAT.
In a nutshell, if someone posted they had issues with their dogs, clearly stated situations, really wanted HELP instead of bad mouth the rescue, I'd make suggestions. But if it has reached the blood drawing stage, they most likely will have to simply manage these dogs away from each other and are going to resent the dog for those imaginary duping behaviors of BRAT. The dog will definitely fare better in another home that doesn't feel duped, dumped on and is willing to ask for help before it is a crisis.
What I got from reading the post was that initially they had contacted BRAT for more information and were told there was none. Not what they were expecting (having previously adopted a BRAT dog), but there you are. The information they did have appeared to them to be misleading (the dog loves to be outdoors vs observing that he didn't like to be outdoors) My impression is that they tried to work things out with these dogs, but the situation is in fact getting worse instead of better. Should they have gotten back in touch with BRAT sooner? Perhaps, but they apparently wanted to give it some time to see if they could make things work. BTW, does BRAT not do follow up with its placements? If not, that surprises me.
In any case, the best outcome for the dogs will come from cooperation, not accusation. Hopefully there is a solution that will work well for all, but I don't think arguing about who should or would or could have done whatever whenever is particularly useful at this point. My apologies if I have added fuel to the fire, but how about trying to find a solution that will work for everyone?
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Often, doing rescue, folks wait until its "panic" mode and then contact rescue. Its so much more helpful to stop behaviors that cause issues early. So, this wasn't done.
What is decided between BRAT and these ownrs will be best for all. I read this post and felt it was BRAT bashing. Rescue work is hard, takes a lot of time and mostly is self rewarding. When it isn't and it happens to be a dog I have placed, I beat myself up a lot. We do rescue because we want to help dogs and help make human families happier. This isn't happening in this case. Working toward the peace for the family and the dogs should be
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You didn't add fuel, I was obviously pretty loaded all on my own to see brat jumped for no reason, a dog in a bad situation that is probably too late to fix in that home, and brat blamed. I work with BRAT, I have a BRAT rescue. I have my own complaints about BRAT and I have said them to them before I post in public. I know many BRAT coordinators and rescue/fosters. Not one of them wouldn't jump hoops to help an adopter. Not one time have I ever heard brat LIED or mislead someone. And that this dog loved to be outside in a foster home probably related to having other dogs or people outside with it– not just going outside alone. But I also loaded because instead of posting we have a dog and this is the problem, it was all geared at how brat failed, mislead, let down. No PERSONAL responsibility for taking a dog if they weren't satisfied with the information available upfront, no personal responsibility for not contacting BRAT, a trainer or even this forum before it reached this point--- and even their commitment to the dog paired with concerns about losing their adoption fee. Surely you can see you didn't need to add anything-- I was there.
Andrea, glad you read it differently. So please help the person because honest, I actually gave my best advice-- contact BRAT and let them find the dog another home.
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I agree, Debra, this is not a good match, and he should be returned to BRAT so that a better match could be made.
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This is the one thing that BRAT could do better, realize that not all comments about them that aren't praise are not bashing either. I didn't read this person's post as bashing BRAT. They seemed confused about why things were done the way they were and frustrated that they didn't always gets answers when they sought clarification. Criticism is not bashing but hopefully can be used to improve the process and make adoption experiences more positive for everyone.
I do think that there was communication glitch here, both ways. The poster took for granted that they would get more detailed information when they picked up the dog but it also seems that BRAT didn't get enough information on the adoptive home's expectation to make a good match.
I also think that the poster really does want what is best for both dogs and wants to help them. If you are really committed to keeping MAX then I think the earlier suggestion that it time to involve a behaviorist is the best advice. They will give you a fresh perspective on your situation and an honest evaluation of if this can be made to work for both dogs and for the household as a whole.
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My wife and I had conversations on the phone with Liz Newton tonight. We came to some conclusions and decisions, but I don't want to and will never again want to get into it here.
I came here looking for advise, but ended up with mostly criticism.
Our primary concern is the well being of this B' boy. So what happens in the future for MAX will be a private matter from now on . . . goodbye
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Jerry and Dana…wish you wouldn't leave.... and I hope that everything works out for the best.
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Dealing with BRAT directly is the right thing in this case. I wish the dog and this family well.
