Lovely pictures. It's good to see a Basenji climbing a tree again. One of mine used to go after squirrels up trees too. Fancy Bowdu spoiling her fun!!
He's Arriving On Saturday!
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SpolidKai,
As you have seen, people on the forum are passionate about Fanconi disease. Those of us who have been in Basenjis for a very long time are fully aware of the affects this disease has not only on the dog itself but for the family who owns it also. Affected dogs must have expensive tests runs every few months and most have to be be force-fed handfuls of pills daily. They drink large amounts of water and urinate frequently and large quantities. Some do ok on this protocal, others do not and must be euthanized. All of this can be prevented by giving the adults a simple $65 test prior to breeding them. Just $65, that's it, and it only has to be done once in a dog's lifetime.So when we hear about puppies being produced from untested parents, we become passionate. We love our breed and we want to protect our breed. In our eyes, any breeder who either chooses not to do the Fanconi test or is too ignorant to even know about the test is harming the breed. We try to steer buyers away from breeders like that because we don't want the buyers to end up heartbroken. Another thing is that when breeders like that cannot find buyers they either stop breeding Basenjis or learn to breed a bit more responsibly. This is beneficial to the breed as a whole since fewer affected animals will be produced.
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But you are aware of the issue and this puppy is supposed to be a gift to you. So why are you not having the discussions with your partner now instead of holding breath and hoping for the best?
I am not trying to interrogate, I just honestly do not understand. Dogs are such a huge committment. I don't understand the concept of a "surprise" puppy and I don't understand not asking questions when there are reasonable and fairly serious questions to be asked.
Everyone has a different level of expectations and priorities in life, and it changes with every subject.
The same could be said about individuals buying homes, cars, etc. Not everyone is as meticulous as you would expect. That's just a thing with our society and human beings in general. It's impossible for every individual to be fully educated on every single topic.
Those of you who breed dogs already know these things. You simply cannot expect every individual looking to make an addition to their family with a dog know every single thing to look for like you do.
You can raise awareness (and I think that's a great thing), but you can't criticize everyone who takes in a new dog. I'm sure we can all find things in life to criticize others about that we have extensive knowledge over. I come across it every day. All you can do is educate, don't continue to focus on what they missed or did wrong, but educate for the purpose of going forward. I will admit some of you get quite fixated on some of these flaws and I think you just need to let it go and let the individuals understand what they need to know going forward.
Just my .02
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With that said… Congratulations on Kai. It sounds like you are committed to educating yourself on the unique health concerns regarding Basenjis. I'm sure you'll find yourself knowledgeable of some great things that are shared on this forum. The forum and the members that post are simply a great resource.
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Except when people come to these forums and say they plan to do the test when the puppy arrives that says to me they know the test exists. If they know the test exists and have read about the test then they should also have seen the breeding recommendations and know that parents should be tested PRIOR to breeding.
It is very different if a person didn't know about the test. I don't understand knowing about a test and disease and not requiring the testing be done by the seller. It is the seller's responsibility to prove they have a quality product, not the buyer's responsibility to prove otherwise.
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Except when people come to these forums and say they plan to do the test when the puppy arrives that says to me they know the test exists. If they know the test exists and have read about the test then they should also have seen the breeding recommendations and know that parents should be tested PRIOR to breeding.
It is very different if a person didn't know about the test. I don't understand knowing about a test and disease and not requiring the testing be done by the seller. It is the seller's responsibility to prove they have a quality product, not the buyer's responsibility to prove otherwise.
These are all assumptions. Again, it seems like a no-brainer to those that are greatly familiar with the said subject, but it can still be rather unclear to others. Even if they know about the test itself.
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Except when people come to these forums and say they plan to do the test when the puppy arrives that says to me they know the test exists. If they know the test exists and have read about the test then they should also have seen the breeding recommendations and know that parents should be tested PRIOR to breeding.
It is very different if a person didn't know about the test. I don't understand knowing about a test and disease and not requiring the testing be done by the seller. It is the seller's responsibility to prove they have a quality product, not the buyer's responsibility to prove otherwise.
I agree with Lisa… (in the hindsight). I almost made a really big mistake getting a puppy from an "irresponsible" breeder aka "puppymill" without all the health tests done on the puppy. For me it was a little more unacceptable than for SpoiledKai because I was aware of all the tests and got every possible test done on Lana prior to breeding her, as every responsible breeder should do. Unfortunately my feelings and emotions can sometimes overrun the common sense. Fortunately people on this website are looking out for other people (and dogs).
SpoiledKai, 3 weeks ago I was almost in the same spot you are in right now: got all the paperwork, and deposit in on the puppy and waiting for it to come home within four days. Upon further research, a lot of thinking and a lot of valuable advice from senior members here, I decided against it. As a person who's "been there done that" just a little time ago, I understand how hard it can be to take the criticism on this particular matter from other members here. Now (as I said, hindsight is a great thing) I am 100% with the people who say "think about it." So, I will pitch in too (although I am by no means as knowledgeable as some of the other people here are) and say: if the tests were not done on the parents, chances are the breeder is only breeding these dogs to make money, which is further supported by the fact that they have 10 or so different breeds and puppies available for every one of those breeds. You should definitely talk to you partner and see how much research has actually been done on the breeder. Better yet, call the breeder yourself, and ask about the tests, or at least the Fanconi test.
Also, in hindsight, thanks to all who "criticized" me and made me make the right decision!
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These are all assumptions. Again, it seems like a no-brainer to those that are greatly familiar with the said subject, but it can still be rather unclear to others. Even if they know about the test itself.
When a person comes to these boards and indicates that they are "getting" a puppy, but have not done so yet, that is the time to show maybe a different path. It is understandable that people get angry when it is pointed out that maybe they did not know to research or have missed some important points. And sometimes it is difficult to drive home a point…. but if we can stop one person from supporting these irresponsible breeders then, IMO opinion it is worth it. There is one person in our group here that had that experience of getting a puppy, then finding out it was DNA Affected for Fanconi. And that person was crushed.... but by that time would not consider sending the pup back... and this was from a breeder that did test, after the breeding (carrier to either carrier or untested) all the pups and still sold the affects without telling the buyers, just sold at a reduced price. I would suppect that 99% of the people if they got a pup home, spent some time with it, would have the same reaction and not send it back...even if they then test Fanconi Affected or have any other health issue, as this is not the affliction that our breed has. But now let themselves in for possible heartache years down the road, not to mention the worry... if/when that puppy might start spilling sugar.
You are buying a living, breathing animal that is going to be with you 15 to 18years...you are not buying a car or house.... I don't understand how someone could do a transaction over the internet (or phone) and just have an animal flown to them?... That said, I require people to come to pick up puppies, as I will not ship... and if I am purchasing a puppy, I fly to the puppy... and the deal is not done until I have met the breeder and have interacted with the puppies.
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I agree with Lisa… (in the hindsight). Also, in hindsight, thanks to all who "criticized" me and made me make the right decision!
And Kudos to you diff_eqs… you drive home the point with excellence!
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You are buying a living, breathing animal that is going to be with you 15 to 18years…you are not buying a car or house.... I don't understand how someone could do a transaction over the internet (or phone) and just have an animal flown to them?... That said, I require people to come to pick up puppies, as I will not ship... and if I am purchasing a puppy, I fly to the puppy... and the deal is not done until I have met the breeder and have interacted with the puppies.
I would never have bought any kind of animal, if I have met them previously and met the breeder in person.
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The problem with shipping puppies is that each puppy goes through fear periods and though the books give specific time frames, the reality is that each pup is an individual, and often being shipped cargo can be quite traumatic. Crate training is difficult enough with a puppy with no negative associations to the crate but with one that has been shipped can be nearly impossible. It is much better for the puppy to go pick it up and bring it home via sherpa.
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Everyone has a different level of expectations and priorities in life, and it changes with every subject.
The same could be said about individuals buying homes, cars, etc. Not everyone is as meticulous as you would expect. That's just a thing with our society and human beings in general. It's impossible for every individual to be fully educated on every single topic.
Those of you who breed dogs already know these things. You simply cannot expect every individual looking to make an addition to their family with a dog know every single thing to look for like you do.
You can raise awareness (and I think that's a great thing), but you can't criticize everyone who takes in a new dog. I'm sure we can all find things in life to criticize others about that we have extensive knowledge over. I come across it every day. All you can do is educate, don't continue to focus on what they missed or did wrong, but educate for the purpose of going forward. I will admit some of you get quite fixated on some of these flaws and I think you just need to let it go and let the individuals understand what they need to know going forward.
Just my .02
Kananga you have put into words what i tried to do. I actualy wrote a post and then ditched it because i couldn't get the wording just right.
In an ideal world it would be great if people came on the forum or something similar before getting a Pup, but it wont always happen. Heck i didn't even know there were forums before i got my Basenji. -
When a person comes to these boards and indicates that they are "getting" a puppy, but have not done so yet, that is the time to show maybe a different path. It is understandable that people get angry when it is pointed out that maybe they did not know to research or have missed some important points. And sometimes it is difficult to drive home a point…. but if we can stop one person from supporting these irresponsible breeders then, IMO opinion it is worth it. There is one person in our group here that had that experience of getting a puppy, then finding out it was DNA Affected for Fanconi. And that person was crushed.... but by that time would not consider sending the pup back... and this was from a breeder that did test, after the breeding (carrier to either carrier or untested) all the pups and still sold the affects without telling the buyers, just sold at a reduced price. I would suppect that 99% of the people if they got a pup home, spent some time with it, would have the same reaction and not send it back...even if they then test Fanconi Affected or have any other health issue, as this is not the affliction that our breed has. But now let themselves in for possible heartache years down the road, not to mention the worry... if/when that puppy might start spilling sugar.
You are buying a living, breathing animal that is going to be with you 15 to 18years...you are not buying a car or house.... I don't understand how someone could do a transaction over the internet (or phone) and just have an animal flown to them?... That said, I require people to come to pick up puppies, as I will not ship... and if I am purchasing a puppy, I fly to the puppy... and the deal is not done until I have met the breeder and have interacted with the puppies.
Again, everyone has a different point of view.
Obviously a dog is different than buying a car or home, but each has it's own unique priority and importance in life. Your home is your shelter and a good portion of what you spend in life. You'd be surprised how little research some buyers do and the things they miss.
Dogs, for most of us, are a big part of our family. But you need to put things in a realistic point of view. Most people don't even put the same amount of energy (that a lot of you put into the Basenji breed) into having their own children.
When dogs do weird things that make little sense, should we criticize them? Of course not, they are Basenjis!
And when individuals post about how they got their Basenji or what they "thought" was the right thing to do, should we criticize them? Of course not, they are human!
Just keep in mind that not everyone making the decision to bring a dog (any breed) into their home has everything 100% figured out. The majority of adults having kids don't even come close to having it figured out 100%. It's a human trait. We figure things out as we go.
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Thanks Karanga, I am literally counting down the days until he arrives:D
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So I emailed the breeder, and they have been tested for Fanconi, they have had the same bloodline for 5 years, never added a new bloodline either.
So it looks like Kai will be completely fine, naturally…we will get him tested to make sure.
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Did they give you the parents' registered names so you can verify the test results?
There are several people on the forum who were told their puppy's parents were "tested" and then found out they were only strip tested to see that they were not spilling sugar and they were never tested using the DNA Marker.
As for the comment that they have been breeding the same bloodlines for 5 years means very little. A very well known, well respected, responsible breeder had been breeding the same lines for close to 30 years when the test came out and nearly all her current dogs came back as Probably Carriers.
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So I emailed the breeder, and they have been tested for Fanconi, they have had the same bloodline for 5 years, never added a new bloodline either.
So it looks like Kai will be completely fine, naturally…we will get him tested to make sure.
If the sire and dam were tested for Fanconi, then it would be on the OFA public data base, again this is required that all results are posted. Not to say they are not telling the truth, it is always a good thing to check it out for yourself. Just because they have been breeding the same dogs for 5yrs, doesn't mean they do not have Fanconi. It is really for your own peace of mind to due diligence and check for yourself.
And if they have tested for Fanconi with a DNA test, it would not be necessary for you to test the pup. Not that testing is not a good thing, as the more information we have in the data base the better decisions for breeding can be made
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I'm sure this person is going to feel like we're all picking on him but we just love the breed and want people to be educated. I wasn't before I joined this forum!
My husband had put a deposit on a puppy that wasn't tested (also from OK) and it was a gift for our wedding anniversary. When I announced it on this forum, I too was told like you were, make sure they're tested. Well, the breeder lied to me and told me his dogs were tested, but they really weren't… I just bit the bullet and told my husband to lose the deposit and we would research another breeder who actually cared for the breed, and now I have a beautiful healthy girl with a great temperament.
I emailed your breeder and this is what he told me: WE HAVE NOT TESTED BECAUSE WE HAVE HAD THE SAME BLOODLINE FOR 5 YEARS AND OUR FRIEND 5 YEARS BEFORE THAT AND THEY HAVE NEVER HAD THE FANCONI IN THIS BLOODLINE AND IT STRIKES BETWEEN YEAR 3 AND 5...JERRIE
This guy doesn't seem to know a lot about Basenjis... Really sorry about that, but it's not too late to find another breeder who has actually tested.
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Sad to find out… BYB...:(
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And again, this person is incorrect about the age, it can be as early as 3 or as late as over 10yrs…. along with that as lvoss point out, we had a long time responsible (over 30 years) breeder that started testing all her dogs once the DNA test came out only to find that almost all her dogs were DNA Carriers for Fanconi. Had she continue to breed without test, there is no doubt that she would have starting having many Affecteds.
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Folks, this person has already made up their mind they are getting this puppy. Any further conversation isn't going to change anything.
