Is Maya teaching the baby to destruct the toy!?
He's Arriving On Saturday!
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Kananga and Kathy you are right and Kananga especially about these BYB/PM's. They do suck people in with their bull#$@!. And because these people suck them in with their crap and lies, sometime the voice of reason needs to be louder then theirs. However if you read the beginnings of each thread when someone come on the list and says they are getting (note here meaning has not brought that puppy home yet). The most typical question is Who are you getting your puppy from?… Then, have they been DNA tested for Fanconi? All very civilized. And when many of us hear that there has not been at least DNA Testing for Fanconi, the questions get a bit harder to the prospective buyer. However those questions are to trying and get the buyer to think twice. And when people just show up on the boards that already went and got a puppy from a PM/BYB.. then the most suggested is that the at least the DNA is done. I have never seen anyone here tell people to return the puppy....
Sorry, to sugar coat the truth is not going to make someone really stop and think about what they are about to do.
Which begs the point of this question that I will direct to diff_eqs: When you first posted about getting the puppy from Mtn Springs, had all the responses been something on the line of...
"Super congrats, cute puppy, health tested? You will have lots of fun..."
Would those response caught your attention and get you to step back and reconsider?
I think not....
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Correct.
And the way "newcomers" usually leave here and get their BYB or PM dog is because they get treated like crap on this forum.
Plain and simple.
Honey attracts far more suitors than s&#t.I further agree. We need to be kinder to people on the forums. Our goal should be to gently educate, not berate. I try to put myself in the other person's shoes and respond how I would prefer someone talk to me. It helps keep the conversation calmer and when people are calm they usually absorb info better.
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I think we really are kind to people. The questions "Where did you get your dog from?" and "Were both the parents tested for Fanconi?" are neutral questions. Things take a turn when people become defensive either because they are apparently not proud of where they got their dog or the choices they made and say things to the tune of "None of your business". Even then the response is usually "please, verify for yourself that your dog's parents have been tested using the OFA website, http://www.offa.org and if they aren't there then please get your dog tested." If they haven't already brought the dog home then the the last part is usually, "then please ask that the puppy be tested before you bring it home or if they refuse then look for a breeder who will test."
The other reason things take a turn is because people want to defend breeders who do no testing.
I will admit when we reach this peak in puppy season, I get really frustrated to hear person after person defend breeders who care so little for their dogs they couldn't spend $65 per parent to prevent a terminal illness. I also agree with Pat that saying all sorts of warm fuzzy things without also asking what apparently are the "hard" questions isn't doing anyone any favors. Puppies are cute, that is their nature. So yeah, we could all sit and say "Oh what a cute puppy" and move one and then say "Oh so sorry your puppy has (fill in the blank)" and all be so NICE but if that is what we are going to do, then why be in a forum since none of it is truly sincere. Then we are just saying what is NICE and not really even being nice because I don't think it is nice to say something while also knowing that there is more to it than that.
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And to add to lvoss post… if we can change one person's mind for getting a puppy from a less the responsible breeder, then IMO, it is well worth it. And we have, diff_eqs did some soul searching and changed her mind.. and there have been others. And who knows how many lurkers have been educated and maybe went to a responsible breeder.
It is not like we are trying to sell them a puppy and that is why we are pushing that they do their homework first...
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I agree that difficult questions need to be asked and i value the information i have gained since joining the forum, it is invaluable.
I do however think sometimes people come across as harsh and i know the subject is very tricky. I feel sometimes people are crushed and if they are driven away from the forum or afraid to ask questions then this can only be a bad thing.
Maybe when people say the Puppy is cute etc it balances it out a bit. We are all different and that's what makes the forum good.
The Government needs to toughen up it's laws to get rid of BYB and PF -
The laws that are proposed in this country will not touch the puppymills and will only make it so they are the only place to get a purebred puppy because they have the money to lobby congress to make sure they are safe. They only way to put puppymills and BYBs out of business is education. It becomes an issue of economics as long as the BYBs and Puppymills can find buyers then they will continue to operate. If they cannot find buyers and even better lose money on every litter they produce, they will cease. That is why it is so important that people do not support these breeders with their dollar, it is the same as saying, "I agree with this practice and think it absolutely should continue." At least when these breeders get stuck with puppies and turn them over to shelters or rescue they make no profit so are more likely to think twice before doing that breeding again. I do feel that there should be more of a consequence for surrendering litters but I know that the problem with that is people will then just dump those puppies somewhere, a field, a parking lot, etc, and let it be someone else's problem since the whole issue is they refuse to be responsible.
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I think what needs to happen, if these BYBs consider their dogs "products for sale", they need to comply with the rules & regulations that manufacturers and retailers are held to.
If you make Fanconi and other health testing requirements as public as possible, the individuals looking to get a Basenji (or any breed for that matter) will know to ask about it. If you have it in writing that the breeder claims the dog is not affected, that should seal the deal. If it turned out that they lied then you could easily go after them and get the state attorney general involved. Unfortunately I do not think some of the same laws apply to them (I could be mistaken). Ideally you would want to see proof but that doesn't always happen as a lot of people are blinded by the excitement with getting a new puppy.
One mistake could put a BYB out of business and then all of them would have to be very thorough with how they advertise and do business. It's a simple bait and switch to claim one thing and deliver something else. It's flat out fraud in some scenarios and they should be held accountable. If they don't do testing, they would have to come out and say so and they would probably sell less puppies instead of not saying anything at all and hoping no one asks.
I know everyone here has the best intentions, my point was simply to say that sometimes we need to take a step back and evaluate our emotional attachment to the subject. It tends to interfere with getting the message across. The frustration does make an appearance time to time. I know a lot of you are passionate about breeding healthy Basenjis and that's a great thing to work towards.
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There are many "lemon laws" for puppies in many states… could they be better, certainly... however of course they are specific to each state. And how well they cross state lines, I have not idea.
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There are many "lemon laws" for puppies in many states… could they be better, certainly... however of course they are specific to each state. And how well they cross state lines, I have not idea.
Regardless of the laws, you could open a civil case against them and put them out of business (they would more than likely declare bankruptcy). Just depends on how knowledgeable the individual is and how dedicated they are to seek justice.
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Regardless of the laws, you could open a civil case against them and put them out of business (they would more than likely declare bankruptcy). Just depends on how knowledgeable the individual is and how dedicated they are to seek justice.
This is not true, civil cases are still governed by law. Most state laws will entitle you to a refund ONLY if you are willing to return the animal. There are some states that allow for a refund and for you to keep the animal. Very few states allow you to recover MORE than the cost of the puppy. In most of the states where you can recover more than the cost of the puppy they do require that you prove that the breeder had reasonable knowledge that a problem was likely to occur and did not disclose that prior to purchase.
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I know everyone here has the best intentions, my point was simply to say that sometimes we need to take a step back and evaluate our emotional attachment to the subject.
This is a two way street, both sides need to look at their emotional attachment. Often the emotional response starts with the person buying the puppy. And you are right, their emotional attachment clouds judgement when reading people's posts asking them to view their purchase from all sides.
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This is not true, civil cases are still governed by law. Most state laws will entitle you to a refund ONLY if you are willing to return the animal. There are some states that allow for a refund and for you to keep the animal. Very few states allow you to recover MORE than the cost of the puppy. In most of the states where you can recover more than the cost of the puppy they do require that you prove that the breeder had reasonable knowledge that a problem was likely to occur and did not disclose that prior to purchase.
To some extent yes, but fraud is fraud (if you can prove it).
I'm speaking of an instance where a breeder says they have tested for Fanconi and it turns out that was not the case. If you have it in writing, they would have to prove they did in fact test for it and it came back clear. Otherwise they claimed they tested when they in fact did not.
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This is a two way street, both sides need to look at their emotional attachment. Often the emotional response starts with the person buying the puppy. And you are right, their emotional attachment clouds judgement when reading people's posts asking them to view their purchase from all sides.
I completely agree.
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To some extent yes, but fraud is fraud (if you can prove it).
Fraud would be a criminal case not a civil case. Fraud depending on the state would be one of the reasons the court may grant more than the purchase price of the animal but that varies from state to state and first you have to prove it.
As for putting in writing "testing", that is tricky too. If they said parents were "tested" for Fanconi that could mean a number of things. Many BYBs claim their stock is "tested" when in fact all they do is strip testing which only reflects the status of the dog on the day not is genetic state and therefore its ability to pass the trait to offspring. Most contracts are very simplistic and only garuntee the puppy's health for the first 72 hours which is short end of the incubation period for most diseases so doesn't really even protect the buyer from getting a dog with Parvo, Distemper, etc, let alone late onset disorders.
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That was going to be exactly my comment… saying they were "tested" for Fanconi can mean strip testing, unless you have it in writing that they were DNA tested and in that case you can verify that on line, so if someone didn't do that, I don't think that would hold up. Even more, take the case of something like a Coloboma or Juvenile Catatracts, these can't be found by a regular Vet's exam... so lets say you take the pup home and then go to a Board Certified Ophth, who finds these?... Well if the regular Vet called the pup healthly, and you didn't specify vet exam by a specialist, then again I think you are out of luck.
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I further agree. We need to be kinder to people on the forums. Our goal should be to gently educate, not berate. I try to put myself in the other person's shoes and respond how I would prefer someone talk to me. It helps keep the conversation calmer and when people are calm they usually absorb info better.
Can we talk more about this?
I realize this conversation has the potential to get heated, but I honestly do not see the berating.
I am going to copy My posts from this thread, from the thread where we were talking to Diff_eqs and the thread about the SW Wisconsin pups into a new thread.
What I would like to ask people to do in the new thread is to pick them apart. Tell me where I might come across as too harsh, and suggest different ways to word things.
I am going to ask, to avoid the conversation getting heated, that we stick to my posts. If other people want advice on how to seem less harsh, they can copy their posts into the thread, and ask for advice, but let's avoid looking at other people's posts until they ask for that advice.
-Nicole
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The Government needs to toughen up it's laws to get rid of BYB and PF
We already have too much government in our lives. If people were more responsible for themselves we wouldn't have near the problems we do. However, people have been conditioned to rely on someone else to do it for them. Now, rather than saying, "We should…" we say, "The government should..."
I would like to see us bring ourselves back to good old-fashioned self-reliance. However, that can only happen if we are willing to support each other and give each other a hand up rather than wait for the Nanny State to do it for us.
Now: regarding PM's and BYB's and how to combat them: hit them head on. Let them know you are onto their game, tell your friends so they can back you up and then sign your name to it. If all you want to do is bitch from the shadows without backing up your gas, the BYB's and PM's will continue. Want to stop them? Have some moxie and stake your name and reputation on it.
Confronting it head on means contacting them yourself via email, telephone, etc and let them know you support your breed and disapprove of puppy mills and BYB's. If you get no response, send them a certified letter and tell them your next step is to contact AKC and complain. Then follow it up.
Look…I'll start it: My name is Belinda Blacketer and I approve this message...but I strongly disapprove of this breeder. That said, I do not disapprove of the person who wants a pup. I just don't want them to get scammed.
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They breed lots of different breeds AND crosses (I hate puggles so much! What a stupid cross).
Hey, I love my Puggle! :mad:
However, your opinion …
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Can we talk more about this?
I realize this conversation has the potential to get heated, but I honestly do not see the berating.
I am going to copy My posts from this thread, from the thread where we were talking to Diff_eqs and the thread about the SW Wisconsin pups into a new thread.
I am going to ask, to avoid the conversation getting heated, that we stick to my posts. If other people want advice on how to seem less harsh, they can copy their posts into the thread, and ask for advice, but let's avoid looking at other people's posts until they ask for that advice.
-Nicole
Nicole, thanks so much for saying that! I realize people here wish us newbies the best, and I do thank everyone A LOT who helped me make a right decision, but you are right, sometimes it does come across as being a little too harsh. They are saying all the right things, but for people who don't know that much it just might seem as "critizing" or "interrogating."
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I have no opinion on puggles in particular, I have never met one in person, but I agree with Maya… There is a reason why we have AKC and all the other breed clubs, to keep the breeds pure. There is also a reason why we have particular breeds, they were bred with specific purposes in mind. I HATE the phrase "designer dogs" with a passion! Basically they are mutts and mixes and crosses. I have nothing against mixes, I had the best little mutt while I was growing up in Russia, some of the best dogs (personality, and trainability, working quailities and healthwise) I know now are mixes. But I HATE how people breed sometimes completely different breeds together (like a chihuahua/poodle cross or similar) and attach a new name to the mix (like "maltipoo, labradoodle, morkie, you name it), and say that it's a new breed. Why not say it's a labrador/poodle cross? To me, those "designer breeders" are on even a worse level as a PM. Not only they breed a bunch of mixes on purpose, and mislead the people who just want a cute pet, the "designer dogs," espeically toys and laps usually cost 2 to 3 times more than purebred of either breed. Where's the logic in that? I am not trying to make anyone upset (sorry ChaseandZahrasmom), but I just don't get it....
