You need to point out that Cesar Milan has the money, time, and property to properly rehab the dogs. Cesar Milan made his living working with dogs and it was his primary job when he came to the USA.
I also think its unfair to even comment about Brat and this dog unless you know the history. There are reasons for everything. A Dog that Bites with the intent to break the skin that is unprovoked, is considered a dangerous dog even in Vicki's state. If I read the statue properly, the owners of dogs like that are required to care a $15,000 liability insurance policy. I do not know if this is something Vicki will face in the future or not with this new Basenji she is taking in.
Jason
I have to agree here with Jason…. While I think it is great to try and save all/any dogs... you need to consider their needs and if they will or can be in a Pack... There are different degress of "bites"... and the intent of that bite... and while it might be in a pack situation, not directed at the human... serious injury can happen... and in a pack situation if a fight starts... most all of the pack will join in... been there, done that.. and it is not fun or amusing to have (in my case) 5 going at it.. and one human trying to break it up... believe me, the human loses...
Any dog that is determined or "tagged" a dog that bites may be able to have the behavior reversed.. but I personally am not so sure that in a pack situation of 8 if this is really a wise idea....
And I also agree with Jason on Cesar Milan... totally
First I want to say Thank You Vicki for giving this guy a chance.
Second you are so right it is your life your home and do as you like. Grand dad always said when you clean one closet you clean them all or do not clean any. Words of wisdom.
Third I have meet you and talked with you some people have that little thing that dogs love them and they are great with them.
Fourth I see these pets as Vicki's kids did anyone on here give away there children? I bet that if one of Vicki's friends lost there pet and was close to Vicki's dogs and said I sure would love to take ______ home with me it would happen. Now I could be wrong and Vicki correct me if I am.
Fifth I hope you get your farm with all the animal's and get to live your dream that's what life is all about.
Sixth Un-pick your tractor I've got grand dad's he even had new motor put in it only got about 100 hours on it. Now look out it's red and hot and a young age born in 1959.
Good for you for saying finished. I do hope you read this.
Rita Jean
While I think it is premature to consider Vicki a hoarder, I think it pays to remember that few of us really "know" each other. And it is all too easy on the internet for people to present themselves with any number of identities…so we all need to be careful before investing too much emotion and MONEY with people we don't know. In this case, Kathy (Khanis) has been around the block more than a few times with nutty dog people, and I trust her evaluation that Vicki would be a good home for this dog.
But I do find Jason's words of caution are good, and valid...to think details through before we commit to supporting a project.
While I think it is premature to consider Vicki a hoarder, I think it pays to remember that few of us really "know" each other. And it is all too easy on the internet for people to present themselves with any number of identities…so we all need to be careful before investing too much emotion and MONEY with people we don't know. In this case, Kathy (Khanis) has been around the block more than a few times with nutty dog people, and I trust her evaluation that Vicki would be a good home for this dog.
But I do find Jason's words of caution are good, and valid...to think details through before we commit to supporting a project.
Honestly, it was because Kathy was involved that I decided to support this project. She is at least someone I can tie back to the "real world". No offense meant to Vicki at all, but I've never interacted with her in person or really know who she is (and I'm not suggesting she isn't whom she represents).
Regarding the financial aspect and requesting help for the B-boy, Vicki had just taken in a dog, had the vetting done, paid for the travel, etc. Khanis is a student and didn't have the money to spare. The foster this boy was in obviously was desperate to have him out of her house. Together, Vicki and Khanis did some research, communicated with BRAT and the foster, came to a decision and requested some assistance. Some of us felt comfortable giving that assistance and did so. And felt good doing it.
Regarding hoarding…I guess my gramma could be considered a hoarder. She has two dogs, three cats, three breeding pairs of Macaws, at least 25 smaller green parrots, some who breed, a Lovebird, three "Rooster"-atiels and one disabled crow. One of those two dogs is a Basenji I took to her last year. She is 91 years old and on a fixed income. Her house is not spotless, but it is not unhealthy either.
Does she meet the criteria?
Vicki, I have knowledge of this boy from when he was first taken into rescue.
I would very much like to share what happened re his behavior and biting history.
I think it would be best to share this info privately, so please post to me,
brescue@wavecable.com and I will give you all the history I have re this boy.
For all you others, BRAT did try to help this boy. I am not going to go into it, but
Please, if you don't know re BRAT and what happened, leave BRAT out of the discussion.
I think the question that started all this discussion was a valid question asked out of concern for both Vicki and all of her dogs. She has one dog that delivered at least a level 3 bite in an incident of redirected aggression, she just brought home a dog that has a respiratory illness and is demonstrating resource gaurding severe enough that he has bitten, and now she is taking in another dog who has delivered at least level 3 bites. Any one of these dogs would be a challenge for a person to work with and rehabilitate. Having three, 2 of which are newly acquired and so both needing square one work can easily become overwhelming. I think it is only natural for people to be concerned about what thought has been put into a management plan to protect Vicki from sustaining any more serious bites that may prevent her from caring for her other dogs and to protect all the dogs in the household from a situation that can quickly escalate.
This thread is going off topic and we have seen personal attacks here as well. Hoarding discussion has been moderated and broken out into a different thread.
http://www.basenjiforums.com/showthread.php?t=7643
May I remind everyone that personal attacks will not be tolerated at Basenji Forums and offenders will be warned and banned from this forum. Personal attacks include any attacks on someone's personal life, religious beliefs, ethnicity, or personal habits.
If you can't find a respectful way to express your difference of opinion, then you're better off saying nothing at all. Don't talk down to other posters, lecture them or be rude and dismissive. Disagreement is fine, but attacking another poster personally will get you in trouble.
While you may think you are just having a healthy debate the other person might not think so. In that case it's best to leave the thread alone and report the post to the moderator.
Forum rules: http://www.basenjiforums.com/showthread.php?t=374
@AJs:
Regarding the financial aspect and requesting help for the B-boy, Vicki had just taken in a dog, had the vetting done, paid for the travel, etc. Khanis is a student and didn't have the money to spare. The foster this boy was in obviously was desperate to have him out of her house. Together, Vicki and Khanis did some research, communicated with BRAT and the foster, came to a decision and requested some assistance. Some of us felt comfortable giving that assistance and did so. And felt good doing it.
Regarding hoarding…I guess my gramma could be considered a hoarder. She has two dogs, three cats, three breeding pairs of Macaws, at least 25 smaller green parrots, some who breed, a Lovebird, three "Rooster"-atiels and one disabled crow. One of those two dogs is a Basenji I took to her last year. She is 91 years old and on a fixed income. Her house is not spotless, but it is not unhealthy either.
Does she meet the criteria?
AJ's Human, I see the points you are attempting to make here in regard to this situation and can appreciate them. After reading them, I find that I have to ask if you know personally who they contacted in Brat and what information was actually given. I think its good to feel good about helping others and I think you will agree that sometimes we do things in life with good intention because we care or care too much at times.
I really think its time to present the facts correctly here!
The foster home was not a foster home. Lets please reference these people as owners. The people involved signed a hold harmless contract with Brat which gave them full ownership and released Brat for all liability. After the Owner/ Trainer realized they had made a big mistake they were not
only desperate but in a big hurry to rid themselves of this dog.
Jason
I think the question that started all this discussion was a valid question asked out of concern for both Vicki and all of her dogs. She has one dog that delivered at least a level 3 bite in an incident of redirected aggression, she just brought home a dog that has a respiratory illness and is demonstrating resource gaurding severe enough that he has bitten, and now she is taking in another dog who has delivered at least level 3 bites. Any one of these dogs would be a challenge for a person to work with and rehabilitate. Having three, 2 of which are newly acquired and so both needing square one work can easily become overwhelming. I think it is only natural for people to be concerned about what thought has been put into a management plan to protect Vicki from sustaining any more serious bites that may prevent her from caring for her other dogs and to protect all the dogs in the household from a situation that can quickly escalate.
+1 lvoss, +1 tanza and +1 quercus.
I will also admit that I have been concerned.
One concern I had was about funding - especially in light of the fact that Vicki often talks about getting her vet to help fund the care for her dogs. I do think it is a little disconcerting not being able to afford transport for the dog and then in turn needing the vet to donate care. That said, it is between Vicki and her vet.
Really though, my main reason for concern besides the biting factor is that of 5 basenjis, 3 were being added into a pack situation so close together (1 in late July, 2 in November - 1 that is food aggressive was added 2 wks ago) without a settling in/calming down period for the newly added. Personally for me, I've found that each time a new basenji has come into my house (I have 3 - there has been a year in between each new addition), it has taken some adjustment time, 1 - 3 months, for the existing dogs and the new dog, some of it easy, some of it not so easy. So from what I've seen in my house (and none of mine have biting/aggression issues), yes, I would say I'd be concerned about adding multiple unstable dogs to a pack that quickly.
That said, I completely trust Kathy (Khanis) and I'm sure she has "seen it all" and if she had any concern about this dog going to Vicki, I don't think it would be happening. I also realize that this is the internet and you never really do have the complete picture from this sort of discussion. I'm quite confident that Kathy has a much better understanding than the rest of us pundits. :o
+1 lvoss, +1 tanza and +1 quercus.
I will also admit that I have been concerned.
One concern I had was about funding - especially in light of the fact that Vicki often talks about getting her vet to help fund the care for her dogs. I do think it is a little disconcerting not being able to afford transport for the dog and then in turn needing the vet to donate care. That said, it is between Vicki and her vet.
Really though, my main reason for concern besides the biting factor is that of 5 basenjis, 3 were being added into a pack situation so close together (1 in late July, 2 in November - 1 that is food aggressive was added 2 wks ago) without a settling in/calming down period for the newly added. Personally for me, I've found that each time a new basenji has come into my house (I have 3 - there has been a year in between each new addition), it has taken some adjustment time, 1 - 3 months, for the existing dogs and the new dog, some of it easy, some of it not so easy. So from what I've seen in my house (and none of mine have biting/aggression issues), yes, I would say I'd be concerned about adding multiple unstable dogs to a pack that quickly.
That said, I completely trust Kathy (Khanis) and I'm sure she has "seen it all" and if she had any concern about this dog going to Vicki, I don't think it would be happening. I also realize that this is the internet and you never really do have the complete picture from this sort of discussion. I'm quite confident that Kathy has a much better understanding than the rest of us pundits. :o
I do agree with what you have posted here with exception. As far as I have read and know from the net, Kathy(Khanis) has not had this dog in her possession for an extended period of time. I also do no know if she evaluated this dog. What I do know is that Kathy(Khanis) and I spoke. Miranda and I are considering bringing in a show quality dog into our home. I contacted Kathy in regard to a Beautiful Show Quality dog that she had posted in this forum who is needing a home. Kathy and I spent time on the phone discussing the possibility but Kathy was quick to point out that it was not a good idea to bring another Male Basenji unless its a puppy into our home with the 1 year 9 month old Basenji we already have. Again this is a beautiful dog she has posted that needs or needed a home in this forum. Kathy did go on to say that we might consider a puppy from one of her up coming liters.
Given that Kathy felt that way in regard to us bringing an older male in the home with our male, I would really like to see Kathy post in regard to this dog going to Vicki. Kathy could certainly express to us if she had this dog her possession long enough to evaluate it and what her thoughts are.
Jason
Vicki, please contact me re this boy. I only want to discuss the boys issue you will probably be faced with.
I want to help you protect yourself as well as the dogs in your care.
brescue@wavecable.com
If you post to me, I will only discuss the basenjis boy's behavior.
Someone of the list asked for this information regarding biting.
Classifications of Bites
Well-known veterinarian, dog trainer, and behaviorist Ian Dunbar has developed a six-level system of classifying bites, in order to make discussions of biting behavior more consistent and understandable. Those levels are:
Level 1 Bite - Harassment but no skin contact. This is the
so-called snap. Don?t kid yourself. A snap is an intended
air bite from a dog who did not intend to connect. He
didn't just miss. It is a lovely warning signal, telling us that
we need to identify his stressors and either desensitize
him or manage his behavior to avoid exposing him to the
things that cause him undue stress.
Level 2 Bite - Tooth contact on skin but no puncture. Again,
this is a bite from a dog who didn?t intend to break skin,
and a warning that this dog is serious. It?s a very good idea
to remove the dog's stressors at this point, before he graduates
to the next level.
Level 3 Bite - Skin punctures, one to four holes from a
single bite (all punctures shallower than the length of the
canine tooth).
Level 4 Bite - One to four holes, deep black bruising with
punctures deeper than the length of the canine (which means
the dog bit and clamped down) or slashes in both directions
from the puncture (the dog bit and shook his head).
Level 5 Bite - Multiple-bite attack with deep punctures,
or multiple attack incident.
Level 6 Bite - Killed victim and/or consumed flesh.
I am going to say something here that will not be very popular.
Not all dogs are good pets.
Some dogs, because of trama or breeding should not be placed or rehomed.
We have a lot of great dogs in this country who are waiting to become great pets in homes for most familes.
We also have some damaged dogs who should not be moved on.
Its not easy but no one wants a pet they are afraid of, or one who will hurt them.
Sadly, this is the reality.
On another note regarding this type of rescue fundraisers we would like to inform everyone that in order to facilitate any future rescue fundraiser activity on Basenji Forums, Sharron Hurlbut has a dedicated fundraiser paypal account for Basenji Forums.
Unfortunately she was not available in the last week due to computer trouble and was not able to approve and lead this particular fundraiser on our forum. But all future rescue fundraisers ideas will need to be emailed to rescue@basenjiforums.com first and Sharron will be reviewing and leading them.
Having a trusted experienced third party and official fundraiser account instead of a personal account of one of the members (not that we don't trust our own users) will make everyone feel more comfortable donating their money and will ensure that the money is going to the right cause, accounted for and managed properly.
This paypal account is not limited to BRAT and it will be used for all types of rescue fundraisers initiated by Basenji Forums members. But it will be at the discretion of Basenji Forums Staff whether to allow these fundraisers or not.
Fundraising introduces unnecessary complexity and liability for Basenji Forums Staff, so we will be very strict and sensitive about this subject going forward. Too many people get scammed into donating for various non existing causes and money gets stolen on the internet all the time. Luckily our forum community has been very careful thus far.
Please email any future rescue fundraiser proposals to rescue@basenjiforums.com before posting them publicly on the forum.
I am going to say something here that will not be very popular.
Not all dogs are good pets.
Some dogs, because of trama or breeding should not be placed or rehomed.
We have a lot of great dogs in this country who are waiting to become great pets in homes for most familes.
We also have some damaged dogs who should not be moved on.
Its not easy but no one wants a pet they are afraid of, or one who will hurt them.
Sadly, this is the reality.
Sharron,
I totally agree with you…. There are some dogs that most kindest act is to help them over the brigde. You are right, not popular, but true. It is a very, very hard decision and not one to be taken lightly, those that have made that decision in the past understand what both Sharron and I are saying.
Yes, Pat, now I will worry about Vicki and her dogs until we hear something.
I so hope they are all ok.
Sigh
Yes, Pat, now I will worry about Vicki and her dogs until we hear something.
I so hope they are all ok.
Sigh
You have not heard from her yet? I hope she didn't get blown off forum.
Nope, no word from her or Kathy.
I hope we hear something soon.
I suspect Vicki is gone for good. Notice she deleted all of her posts on this thread, or changed them to "Not relevant". Many of her posts in other threads have been changed to "not relevant" also. I have sent her messages as well and they all seem to be deleted.
I know people posting here care about the dogs and the owners, but we should all be careful about the tone of the responses. This is not the first time a forum member felt chased away or offended. If we push people away, no one, and no dog, benefits. Of course no one is trying to push anyone away on purpose, but that seems to be what is happening.
It's too bad.
