Help Needed: Basenji on Craigslist - OR

[sharronhurlbut]

Vicki, I have knowledge of this boy from when he was first taken into rescue.
I would very much like to share what happened re his behavior and biting history.
I think it would be best to share this info privately, so please post to me,
brescue@wavecable.com and I will give you all the history I have re this boy.

For all you others, BRAT did try to help this boy. I am not going to go into it, but
Please, if you don't know re BRAT and what happened, leave BRAT out of the discussion.

[lvoss]

I think the question that started all this discussion was a valid question asked out of concern for both Vicki and all of her dogs. She has one dog that delivered at least a level 3 bite in an incident of redirected aggression, she just brought home a dog that has a respiratory illness and is demonstrating resource gaurding severe enough that he has bitten, and now she is taking in another dog who has delivered at least level 3 bites. Any one of these dogs would be a challenge for a person to work with and rehabilitate. Having three, 2 of which are newly acquired and so both needing square one work can easily become overwhelming. I think it is only natural for people to be concerned about what thought has been put into a management plan to protect Vicki from sustaining any more serious bites that may prevent her from caring for her other dogs and to protect all the dogs in the household from a situation that can quickly escalate.

[Alex]

This thread is going off topic and we have seen personal attacks here as well. Hoarding discussion has been moderated and broken out into a different thread.

http://www.basenjiforums.com/showthread.php?t=7643

May I remind everyone that personal attacks will not be tolerated at Basenji Forums and offenders will be warned and banned from this forum. Personal attacks include any attacks on someone's personal life, religious beliefs, ethnicity, or personal habits.

If you can't find a respectful way to express your difference of opinion, then you're better off saying nothing at all. Don't talk down to other posters, lecture them or be rude and dismissive. Disagreement is fine, but attacking another poster personally will get you in trouble.

While you may think you are just having a healthy debate the other person might not think so. In that case it's best to leave the thread alone and report the post to the moderator.

Forum rules: http://www.basenjiforums.com/showthread.php?t=374

[ComicDom1]

@AJs:

Regarding the financial aspect and requesting help for the B-boy, Vicki had just taken in a dog, had the vetting done, paid for the travel, etc. Khanis is a student and didn't have the money to spare. The foster this boy was in obviously was desperate to have him out of her house. Together, Vicki and Khanis did some research, communicated with BRAT and the foster, came to a decision and requested some assistance. Some of us felt comfortable giving that assistance and did so. And felt good doing it.

Regarding hoarding…I guess my gramma could be considered a hoarder. She has two dogs, three cats, three breeding pairs of Macaws, at least 25 smaller green parrots, some who breed, a Lovebird, three "Rooster"-atiels and one disabled crow. One of those two dogs is a Basenji I took to her last year. She is 91 years old and on a fixed income. Her house is not spotless, but it is not unhealthy either.

Does she meet the criteria?

AJ's Human, I see the points you are attempting to make here in regard to this situation and can appreciate them. After reading them, I find that I have to ask if you know personally who they contacted in Brat and what information was actually given. I think its good to feel good about helping others and I think you will agree that sometimes we do things in life with good intention because we care or care too much at times.

I really think its time to present the facts correctly here!

The foster home was not a foster home. Lets please reference these people as owners. The people involved signed a hold harmless contract with Brat which gave them full ownership and released Brat for all liability. After the Owner/ Trainer realized they had made a big mistake they were not
only desperate but in a big hurry to rid themselves of this dog.

Jason

[renaultf1]

@lvoss:

I think the question that started all this discussion was a valid question asked out of concern for both Vicki and all of her dogs. She has one dog that delivered at least a level 3 bite in an incident of redirected aggression, she just brought home a dog that has a respiratory illness and is demonstrating resource gaurding severe enough that he has bitten, and now she is taking in another dog who has delivered at least level 3 bites. Any one of these dogs would be a challenge for a person to work with and rehabilitate. Having three, 2 of which are newly acquired and so both needing square one work can easily become overwhelming. I think it is only natural for people to be concerned about what thought has been put into a management plan to protect Vicki from sustaining any more serious bites that may prevent her from caring for her other dogs and to protect all the dogs in the household from a situation that can quickly escalate.

+1 lvoss, +1 tanza and +1 quercus.

I will also admit that I have been concerned.

One concern I had was about funding - especially in light of the fact that Vicki often talks about getting her vet to help fund the care for her dogs. I do think it is a little disconcerting not being able to afford transport for the dog and then in turn needing the vet to donate care. That said, it is between Vicki and her vet.

Really though, my main reason for concern besides the biting factor is that of 5 basenjis, 3 were being added into a pack situation so close together (1 in late July, 2 in November - 1 that is food aggressive was added 2 wks ago) without a settling in/calming down period for the newly added. Personally for me, I've found that each time a new basenji has come into my house (I have 3 - there has been a year in between each new addition), it has taken some adjustment time, 1 - 3 months, for the existing dogs and the new dog, some of it easy, some of it not so easy. So from what I've seen in my house (and none of mine have biting/aggression issues), yes, I would say I'd be concerned about adding multiple unstable dogs to a pack that quickly.

That said, I completely trust Kathy (Khanis) and I'm sure she has "seen it all" and if she had any concern about this dog going to Vicki, I don't think it would be happening. I also realize that this is the internet and you never really do have the complete picture from this sort of discussion. I'm quite confident that Kathy has a much better understanding than the rest of us pundits. :o

[ComicDom1]

@renaultf1:

+1 lvoss, +1 tanza and +1 quercus.

I will also admit that I have been concerned.

One concern I had was about funding - especially in light of the fact that Vicki often talks about getting her vet to help fund the care for her dogs. I do think it is a little disconcerting not being able to afford transport for the dog and then in turn needing the vet to donate care. That said, it is between Vicki and her vet.

Really though, my main reason for concern besides the biting factor is that of 5 basenjis, 3 were being added into a pack situation so close together (1 in late July, 2 in November - 1 that is food aggressive was added 2 wks ago) without a settling in/calming down period for the newly added. Personally for me, I've found that each time a new basenji has come into my house (I have 3 - there has been a year in between each new addition), it has taken some adjustment time, 1 - 3 months, for the existing dogs and the new dog, some of it easy, some of it not so easy. So from what I've seen in my house (and none of mine have biting/aggression issues), yes, I would say I'd be concerned about adding multiple unstable dogs to a pack that quickly.

That said, I completely trust Kathy (Khanis) and I'm sure she has "seen it all" and if she had any concern about this dog going to Vicki, I don't think it would be happening. I also realize that this is the internet and you never really do have the complete picture from this sort of discussion. I'm quite confident that Kathy has a much better understanding than the rest of us pundits. :o

I do agree with what you have posted here with exception. As far as I have read and know from the net, Kathy(Khanis) has not had this dog in her possession for an extended period of time. I also do no know if she evaluated this dog. What I do know is that Kathy(Khanis) and I spoke. Miranda and I are considering bringing in a show quality dog into our home. I contacted Kathy in regard to a Beautiful Show Quality dog that she had posted in this forum who is needing a home. Kathy and I spent time on the phone discussing the possibility but Kathy was quick to point out that it was not a good idea to bring another Male Basenji unless its a puppy into our home with the 1 year 9 month old Basenji we already have. Again this is a beautiful dog she has posted that needs or needed a home in this forum. Kathy did go on to say that we might consider a puppy from one of her up coming liters.

Given that Kathy felt that way in regard to us bringing an older male in the home with our male, I would really like to see Kathy post in regard to this dog going to Vicki. Kathy could certainly express to us if she had this dog her possession long enough to evaluate it and what her thoughts are.

Jason

[sharronhurlbut]

Vicki, please contact me re this boy. I only want to discuss the boys issue you will probably be faced with.
I want to help you protect yourself as well as the dogs in your care.
brescue@wavecable.com
If you post to me, I will only discuss the basenjis boy's behavior.

[LizNewton]

Someone of the list asked for this information regarding biting.
Classifications of Bites
Well-known veterinarian, dog trainer, and behaviorist Ian Dunbar has developed a six-level system of classifying bites, in order to make discussions of biting behavior more consistent and understandable. Those levels are:

Level 1 Bite - Harassment but no skin contact. This is the
so-called snap. Don?t kid yourself. A snap is an intended
air bite from a dog who did not intend to connect. He
didn't just miss. It is a lovely warning signal, telling us that
we need to identify his stressors and either desensitize
him or manage his behavior to avoid exposing him to the
things that cause him undue stress.

Level 2 Bite - Tooth contact on skin but no puncture. Again,
this is a bite from a dog who didn?t intend to break skin,
and a warning that this dog is serious. It?s a very good idea
to remove the dog's stressors at this point, before he graduates
to the next level.

Level 3 Bite - Skin punctures, one to four holes from a
single bite (all punctures shallower than the length of the
canine tooth).

Level 4 Bite - One to four holes, deep black bruising with
punctures deeper than the length of the canine (which means
the dog bit and clamped down) or slashes in both directions
from the puncture (the dog bit and shook his head).

Level 5 Bite - Multiple-bite attack with deep punctures,
or multiple attack incident.

Level 6 Bite - Killed victim and/or consumed flesh.

[sharronhurlbut]

I am going to say something here that will not be very popular.
Not all dogs are good pets.
Some dogs, because of trama or breeding should not be placed or rehomed.
We have a lot of great dogs in this country who are waiting to become great pets in homes for most familes.
We also have some damaged dogs who should not be moved on.
Its not easy but no one wants a pet they are afraid of, or one who will hurt them.
Sadly, this is the reality.

[Alex]

On another note regarding this type of rescue fundraisers we would like to inform everyone that in order to facilitate any future rescue fundraiser activity on Basenji Forums, Sharron Hurlbut has a dedicated fundraiser paypal account for Basenji Forums.

Unfortunately she was not available in the last week due to computer trouble and was not able to approve and lead this particular fundraiser on our forum. But all future rescue fundraisers ideas will need to be emailed to rescue@basenjiforums.com first and Sharron will be reviewing and leading them.

Having a trusted experienced third party and official fundraiser account instead of a personal account of one of the members (not that we don't trust our own users) will make everyone feel more comfortable donating their money and will ensure that the money is going to the right cause, accounted for and managed properly.

This paypal account is not limited to BRAT and it will be used for all types of rescue fundraisers initiated by Basenji Forums members. But it will be at the discretion of Basenji Forums Staff whether to allow these fundraisers or not.

Fundraising introduces unnecessary complexity and liability for Basenji Forums Staff, so we will be very strict and sensitive about this subject going forward. Too many people get scammed into donating for various non existing causes and money gets stolen on the internet all the time. Luckily our forum community has been very careful thus far.

Please email any future rescue fundraiser proposals to rescue@basenjiforums.com before posting them publicly on the forum.

[tanza]

@sharronhurlbut:

I am going to say something here that will not be very popular.
Not all dogs are good pets.
Some dogs, because of trama or breeding should not be placed or rehomed.
We have a lot of great dogs in this country who are waiting to become great pets in homes for most familes.
We also have some damaged dogs who should not be moved on.
Its not easy but no one wants a pet they are afraid of, or one who will hurt them.
Sadly, this is the reality.

Sharron,
I totally agree with you…. There are some dogs that most kindest act is to help them over the brigde. You are right, not popular, but true. It is a very, very hard decision and not one to be taken lightly, those that have made that decision in the past understand what both Sharron and I are saying.

[sharronhurlbut]

Yes, Pat, now I will worry about Vicki and her dogs until we hear something.
I so hope they are all ok.
Sigh

[nobarkus]

@sharronhurlbut:

Yes, Pat, now I will worry about Vicki and her dogs until we hear something.
I so hope they are all ok.
Sigh

You have not heard from her yet? I hope she didn't get blown off forum.

[sharronhurlbut]

Nope, no word from her or Kathy.
I hope we hear something soon.

[Tayda_Lenny]

I suspect Vicki is gone for good. Notice she deleted all of her posts on this thread, or changed them to "Not relevant". Many of her posts in other threads have been changed to "not relevant" also. I have sent her messages as well and they all seem to be deleted.

I know people posting here care about the dogs and the owners, but we should all be careful about the tone of the responses. This is not the first time a forum member felt chased away or offended. If we push people away, no one, and no dog, benefits. Of course no one is trying to push anyone away on purpose, but that seems to be what is happening.

It's too bad.

[Alex]

We will update this thread, once we hear back from Vicki. Thank you everyone who donated funds to help rescue this dog. Please email admin@basenjiforums.com if you have any questions or concerns.

As I mentioned in my previous post, fundraising introduces unnecessary complexity and liability for Basenji Forums Staff, so we will be very strict and sensitive about this subject going forward.

[Alex]

Dear Basenji Forums Community,

I am sure many of you have been wondering what was the outcome of this rescue effort. Well, let us tell you it was unexpected. A rescue mission that was supposed to unite our community to help save a dog turned into a complete opposite and brought us apart.

I would like to thank everyone who stepped in to help and put their time and money to attempt to save this dog and offer him a life without neglect.

Members who volunteered themselves for this mission had many years of experience with the breed, with both ill-tempered rescues, and those that have been fabulous. They had enough experience to make a determination whether to attempt this or not. While this dog had issues it is imperative to keep in mind he was a just a puppy, and someone was willing to give him a chance.

Others may have disagreed on the reasoning for attempting this, but at no time they were given the right to derail this mission and use this forum to publicly attack and discredit members whose only intentions were to help save this dog.

As a result of the actions of certain members our whole community suffered:

• The dog was not saved
• Forum rules about code of conduct were broken
• Existing members were publicly offended and discredited
• New members were exposed to public arguments
• Our community lost potential member referrals
• Members had to be suspended from the forum

It is really too bad and sad, because we built this community to bring together basenji owners, breeders, and exhibitors throughout the world. To be hopeful that they could help one another and dogs in need.

Thank you again for trying to help. All donation have been refunded and no more assistance will be attempted. Which, of course, is unfortunate for the basenji in need.

As a last note please remember to review our forums code of conduct and forum rules and to treat others with utmost respect. Like the Basenjis, each of us is unique with our unique character, but our admiration and respect for this breed have brought us together and make us a community. Disregard for our forum community rules will not be tollerated on this forum.

Please contact Basenji Forums staff directly at admin@basenjiforums.com if you have any questions or concerns.

This thread is closed for public discussion.