Shock collar training

[tanza]

When a dog is in a pack situation they learn how to play and 99% of the time it is an issue of a warning, not biting… using a shock collar doesn't give the same lessons. All it does, IMO is teach them when wearing the collar I get zapped...

And you really said it yourself... it is getting everyone in the house to do it... teaching him... if everyone in the house would be consistent then he would learn... and your right, leaving the pack at 7 weeks is way to young.. they miss all those lessons pups learn from each other in a pack/group situation.

[Quercus]

I give up…you are right...what you all do with your dogs is none of my business....

Why am I putting so much effort and time into trying to help people who don't want it????

Good luck, keep in touch....

[Nemo]

@Rita:

If you do not know which collar is "best" how do you know they are "all" bad? I take that as name calling when you say punishment. I do not punish my puppy that is just real wrong and sick of you. You know nothing about me or what I do and have to right.

Rita Jean

The terms "punishment" and "reinforcement" are commonly used terms in operant conditioning, there are both positive and negative forms of both. Punishment is when you do something to try to decrease a behavior, reinforcement is when you do something to increase a behavior. There are "positive" and "negative" forms of both, and they do not mean "good" and "bad" but rather you that you are "adding" something or "taking" something away. An e-collar would be an example of "positive punishment". You are adding a shock, pulse, or sound typically to decrease an un-wanted behavior.

Since I know Quercus is familiar with that terminology, I would imagine that is why she said it, but I won't put words in her mouth.

[Quercus]

@Nemo:

The terms "punishment" and "reinforcement" are commonly used terms in operant conditioning, there are both positive and negative forms of both. Punishment is when you do something to try to decrease a behavior, reinforcement is when you do something to increase a behavior. There are "positive" and "negative" forms of both, and they do not mean "good" and "bad" but rather you that you are "adding" something or "taking" something away. An e-collar would be an example of "positive punishment". You are adding a shock, pulse, or sound typically to decrease an un-wanted behavior.

Since I know Quercus is familiar with that terminology, I would imagine that is why she said it, but I won't put words in her mouth.

Exactly! You rock Thanks for taking the time to explain…I don't have the energy

[sharronhurlbut]

Thylacine wrote…

It is interesting that people have no problems with other dogs "teaching him Lessons" douptless with sharp teeth, but go into fits at the mention of a mild electric shock when the dog is biting a child. Weird.. When people get there minds set about hot button issues they quickly move to paint any one on the other side as evil.
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Dogs will teach him by giving him body language before they "repremand" him.
They will give him physical warning as well as visual clues before they "repremand" him.
He will know just exactly when he has stepped over the line and it will be clear in the dogs mind.
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My issue with shock collars is that often the owner are NOT consistant and the dog ends up more confused than corrected.
But he is your dog. I am just trying to give you another way to go.

[Rita Jean]

How about we all end this and just go on with a HAPPY 4th Of JULY. After all different people and different ideals is what makes our world go around.

Rita Jean

[Basenjimamma]

Amen to that. I certainly will do nothing but enjoy my weekend and I wish the same for all of my fellow very passionate B lovers.

[RedVelvetLynx]

Hi. I have the same issues with my 1 yr old female. She is either in sleep mode or play mode - she always wants to play. And she is and always has been a nipper. She has ripped a hole in one of my sweaters - her favorite way to get my attention is to jump & nip at my back, as high as my shoulder blade (but I am only 5 ft), thus ripping a hole in my sweater. She will cruise by during her B500s & jump & nip at my belly or whatever other body part she can get at. She loves to mouth my hands & arms when I try to pet her while she only wants to play. Is your B aggressive? After puppy kindergarten, we weren't very good about socializing our female & I used to worry about how she would act around & react towards people & other dogs - she has never made me more proud in her life - she loves everybody & doesn't nip at all. When she really pushes my buttons with the back nipping, I quickly grab her & make her sit & hold her there for a minute. Most times she gets it, sometimes I interrupt her nipping interest with treats. You say your B is good with tricks? Try to distract him - if he wants attention, give him the opportunity to show off & reward him for it. Sometimes I ignore her & eventually she'll stop, but I also have 2 pretty little holes in my carpet. :rolleyes:
@sharronhurlbut:

Dogs will teach him by giving him body language before they "repremand" him.
They will give him physical warning as well as visual clues before they "repremand" him.
He will know just exactly when he has stepped over the line and it will be clear in the dogs mind.

This is quite interesting to see, if you get the chance. I got my female from a pet store, so she was probably never taught when enough is enough. I got Denver (our boy) from a B breeder & took Trinity (our girl) to run with the babies & the Dam's daughter from a different breeding. Egypt (the other dog) womped Trinity's butt - not only was she older, but she was bigger & more solidly built.
But I understand how hard it can be to contain a male, especially if he is solid. Denver is 6 months & STRONG, esp. compared to my runt female - he is already surpassing her in size!
I hate the nipping too, but I guess I've just gotten used to it & now-a-days, the nipping usually turns into a full blown B500 - if she thinks I'm upset & I start to use the same tones, verbage & body language that I use when I really am upset, she turns it into her catch-me-if-you-can game.

I think some Bs are just nippers. Both of my Bs love my 3 yr old neice but can't stand my 3 yr old nephew - why? Because he acts a mess around them - he jumps up & down while screaming their names & runs & cringes out of fear, while my niece runs in play with no abandon. Does your daughter fear your B, even a little? I read a lot that dogs consider youngsters to be lower than them in the pack order or something like that. Have your daughter take on alpha tasks, such as feeding the dogs or maybe even doing some commands with treats.
Although I've only owned 2 dogs my whole life, I just wanted to throw my thoughts your way. Good luck with whatever you try - just don't give up yet - 7 months is still a baby!

[shep_18]

See the problem is I didnt get my dog when he was a puppy, i got him from a shelter when he was 1 and a half years old. Thus, his bad behaviors were already there which makes it alot harder to correct. I wish I had him as a puppy because it would be alot easier…and out of curiousity what is "IMO" ?

[tanza]

IMO = In my opinion

[sharronhurlbut]

I have done rescue for 100 yrs…or it seems like.
I have to tell you puppies are such work...even more than rescue dogs.
Rescue dogs can/do have issues, but mostly, if the owner is open to getting the dog into a basic gentle obedience class, it can work wonders to help the basenji learn to "talk" to the owners...it does help human and dog communication.
Some dogs need more work than others..and when you start on a training program..everyone has to be on board. B's are smart enough to ignore something they don't want to listen to...and often they will get WORSE when your on the right track, because they want to test you to see if its going to stick.
I have done a lot of classes, re dogs behavior and often its pretty hard to miss clue your given. We use tapes so we can watch and rewatch. BUT if your having issues, a pack of b's who are in a settled home, ie a breeder or a good dog park where the dogs are social, well, honestly, it can work wonders...again..just my opinion.

[Thylacine]

There are a lot of extreme opinions out there on this issue. I am a public adjuster by trade, I fight insurance companies for a living, this gives me a sensitive eye for bias. I read the screeds against shock collars and I tend to agree with the sentiment underlying them. However, I believe that the people who authored these papers were against them from the beginning root, tree and branch. Opinions like this are nearly worthless.

I was severely beaten as a child and it negatively impacted my life. I have a seven year old daughter who has never felt my hand. When we walk our dog I see people constantly hitting their dogs to correct them. I don't.. NOT EVER. If you are against shock collars on principle then I understand your bias.

I would love to have the luxury of the gentle art conversation to talk Pharaoh out of biting the hell out of my daughter, my wife, my guests, or the little kid at the park who ignored him. This guy can cut a squirrel in half on the run. He needs to know his limits now.

I will cheerfully employ any positive reinforcements suggested to restrain him from biting people. I intend to make this course of therapy short but effective. I do not intend to employ this technique on misdemeanors. Only biting.

However I do need a means of stopping him in the act…NOW. My research has indicted that the shortest path to stopping this behavior is the collar.

If you are reading this and are serious about stopping people from using shock collars then I would suggest you take some of your time to write a definitive guide to raising a Basenji pup that won't bite people. I searched in vain for any real solutions to this issue. This is by far the most incredible dog I have ever known. Every forum on this page that starts off about biting ends in recriminations and sniping. Good for some peoples egos.. Does nothing to stop the biting.

[Thylacine]

Sharon, you have hit at the heart of the problem we have, no consistency, and a strong willed Basenji. i just need something that every one can employ for biting now that he has started to mature. My hope is the collar will act a s negative reinforcement to help him realize it is serious. i have no attention of zapping him for his many other sins.

[sharronhurlbut]

The Evergreen Basenji Club
www.evergreenbasenjiclub.org
has a manual that I suggest for anyone getting a basenji puppy. Its a great workbook.
its $10 and full of wonderful information.
It might give you some ideas on how to work on this issue…or not...again, just a suggestion.

[Thylacine]

We ordered it when we got the puppy- got it eight weeks after, please don't go there with my wife present-she will go ballistic.
All of the information appeared to have been cut and pasted from online sources. We were switching banks and she had to keep the account open until we could convince someone at evergreen to cash the check. We threw the manual away after flipping through it once. We had ten books by that time and had gone through two trainers. I took a lot of procedural hits on that one.

[Thylacine]

redvelvetlynx, My daughter did expect a magic puppy. He was a biter from the start. I wanted a female but our breeder convinced the girls that a boy would bond with Svetlana better. He intimidates her terribly and she is the root of the problem. I hear about the bites minutes later. My daughter just cries softly, until someone notices. Then it is too late to correct him. However he cheerfully bites the hell out anyone who ignores him, including me. I fear for any intruders life. He goes ballistic when any one enters our yard. I wanted the bigger brother but our breeder said he wasn't for a first time Basinji owner..imagine if I had got him.

[sharronhurlbut]

Thylacine, how long have you had this puppy? Have you talked to the breeder about his behavior?

[sharronhurlbut]

Using 'Dominance' To Explain Dog Behavior Is Old Hat
ScienceDaily (May 25, 2009) — A new study shows how the behaviour of dogs has been misunderstood for generations: in fact using misplaced ideas about dog behaviour and training is likely to cause rather than cure unwanted behaviour. The findings challenge many of the dominance related interpretations of behaviour and training techniques suggested by current TV dog trainers.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/05/090521112711.htm

[Thylacine]

several times-nothing really constructive. He has only one really bad trait. i understand that you can get a lot of very poor short term results with shock collars. But he is dangerous enough that I need to have the means to stop it at once. I have no intention of using this collar for any other behavior modification. I see no other use for these tools.

[sharronhurlbut]

One line that might be of interest to you and this discussion from the site I sent.

In our referral clinic we very often see dogs which have learnt to show aggression to avoid anticipated punishment

So please, be very careful whatever method you decide to use on your dog.