Getting tooth pulled in a show dog??
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I agree that a second opinion is a good idea.
Getting a cap would make him ineligible to be shown, it falls under same category as corrective surgeries and is not allowed under the Rules Governing Dog Shows.
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In the Netherlands you can still show the dog. You will need a note of the vet that the removal of the tooth/the cap on the tooth had/has a medical reason.
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Not sure I understand "must" finish him?…. there are circumstances that happen that can and do prevent a dog from finishing?...
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That caught my eye also. I mean, what if the dog just simply doesn't finish?
There are no guarantees in dog show land, so that seems like a really odd contract stipulation.Then again, what do I know? :confused: My only dog to finish was contractually to be spayed, but then Bryan {and I - he left the final call up to me because of the contract} decided to go ahead and show her and so that part of the contract was disregarded until after she finished. LOL
So I have no clue what a show contract would contain. -
I agree with all the above. Don't get it capped, you are able to show as long as it is removed by a vet and you can prove that it was originally there. There is only a problem if the tooth was always missing.
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Again, remember we have NO DQ's in Basenjis for missing teeth, they are not counted, nor is there a count in the breed standard
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Again, remember we have NO DQ's in Basenjis for missing teeth, they are not counted, nor is there a count in the breed standard
Forgive my ignorance, but why a cap DQ but a missing tooth won't? Seems it's really very nearly the same thing, just a different form of "repair" of a problem tooth.
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Because AKC considers that "changing" the dog's appearance…. as in "Restorative dental procedures" which a cap would be....
Used to be you could not fix a broken leg with the use of a plate, but that was finally changed... along with Umbilical hernia's, however inguinal, scrotal or perineal hernias are still not acceptable surgery for a dog in the show ring.
Here is another quote from the rule book "Even procedures, substances and drugs which are absolutely necessary to the health and comfort of a dog shall disqualify that dog from competition if the former had the incidental effect of changing or even improving the dog's appearance, bite or gait".
Remember show dogs are being judged as breeding stock... and many things can be done to improve or cover up breeding, genetic faults...
Of course that said, I would not want to bet how many are being done anyway... just don't get caught.
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Because AKC considers that "changing" the dog's appearance…. as in "Restorative dental procedures" which a cap would be....
Used to be you could not fix a broken leg with the use of a plate, but that was finally changed... along with Umbilical hernia's, however inguinal, scrotal or perineal hernias are still not acceptable surgery for a dog in the show ring.
Here is another quote from the rule book "Even procedures, substances and drugs which are absolutely necessary to the health and comfort of a dog shall disqualify that dog from competition if the former had the incidental effect of changing or even improving the dog's appearance, bite or gait".
Remember show dogs are being judged as breeding stock... and many things can be done to improve or cover up breeding, genetic faults...
Of course that said, I would not want to bet how many are being done anyway... just don't get caught.
Okay, so… pulling the tooth is different because there is no specific number of teeth the dog is supposed to have for show, but capping the bad tooth
actually results in the change in the physical appearance of the existing tooth and therefore is a DQ.I think I get it.
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Okay, so… pulling the tooth is different because there is no specific number of teeth the dog is supposed to have for show, but capping the bad tooth
actually results in the change in the physical appearance of the existing tooth and therefore is a DQ.I think I get it.
More or less..gggg… it is a pretty general thing... and not very well thought out, IMO...
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Removing the tooth does not improve the dog's appearance whereas capping the tooth might.
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Removing the tooth does not improve the dog's appearance whereas capping the tooth might.
But think about it, it could improve the appearance….especially if the tooth was crooked.....
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So, pulling the tooth will not DQ the b..but repairing it will.
Got it. -
So, pulling the tooth will not DQ the b..but repairing it will.
Got it.Exactly, but this might not be true for all breeds…. all have different standards.
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Like in the Netherlands in sweden you need a paper from the vet to prove it has existed.Our judges always take a good peek on their teeth and I know one finnish judge who actually counts them and penalizes if there´s one missing.
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Keep in mind this - showing dogs is 'supposed' to be evaluating breeding stock - if dog have been altered in some way - he/she is now 'better' and evaluating an artifically enhanced dog is not what dog shows are supposed to be about.
I have a wonderful - B&W male - handsome, sound, good wrinkle, moves wonderfully - but as a youngster in chasing a bunny ran full tilt into a part of my fence - it too me more than 30 min to get his mouth unhooked from the fence and an upper tooth was cracked at the based under the gum ine - it never straightened up and is actually a dead tooth - showed him some after that but while he would win his class - was never in contention so just stopped showing him.
We have no DQ - but all things being equal - almost always a judge will weigh the bite in the decisionmaking.
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Keep in mind this - showing dogs is 'supposed' to be evaluating breeding stock - if dog have been altered in some way - he/she is now 'better' and evaluating an artifically enhanced dog is not what dog shows are supposed to be about.
I have a wonderful - B&W male - handsome, sound, good wrinkle, moves wonderfully - but as a youngster in chasing a bunny ran full tilt into a part of my fence - it too me more than 30 min to get his mouth unhooked from the fence and an upper tooth was cracked at the based under the gum ine - it never straightened up and is actually a dead tooth - showed him some after that but while he would win his class - was never in contention so just stopped showing him.
We have no DQ - but all things being equal - almost always a judge will weigh the bite in the decisionmaking.
But.. Your dog still has the same genes.. and that's what it's about when you are looking at potential breeding stock.. right?
So.. if a dog has a correct tooth.. that breaks and you repare it.. the dog isn't any 'better' than his genes already made him… He just had an accident and has been helped/fixed.. Nothing to DQ him for..
That's just my point of view.. :)
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however - as a judge - we don't get to know the issue, can't ask, can't look at evidence - we can only judge what is in front of us at that time. So finishes are not guaranteed.
If you want to see the extent people go to - watch standard poodles with someone judging who is known to DQ for foreign sub (hairspray) and look for hairpieces. My goodness do they look different.
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ok, sorry about the delay, i can't get on all that much, but let me straighten some bits out:
what i meant by "I must finish him" is that i have him on a strict contract stating he is a SHOW dog and must compete in AKC shows until he has earned his championship or have reached 50 shows. if by 50 shows he is not a champion it is up to me then to keep showing him or not.
barring any signifigant injury that would bar him from competition i have to show him, per contract.
i was able to get ahold of his breeder and our decision is to get the tooth pulled, but keep it, and have the vet write up a note saying the missing tooth is not genetically at fault.
once his mouth is fully healed i will take him out to a few shows and see how it goes.
He's a nice boy, maybe not specials material, but still a nice boy, so if he bombs at these shows and it is obvious that it is because of the missing tooth, then i will have to speak to his breeder again to determine what to do from there.if i have a vet note, and the tooth in a baggie, i should not be judged too harshly? if it used to be there i see no reason not to be judged fairly. also, are judges not allowed to ask?
~Charlene
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ok, sorry about the delay, i can't get on all that much, but let me straighten some bits out:
what i meant by "I must finish him" is that i have him on a strict contract stating he is a SHOW dog and must compete in AKC shows until he has earned his championship or have reached 50 shows. if by 50 shows he is not a champion it is up to me then to keep showing him or not.
barring any signifigant injury that would bar him from competition i have to show him, per contract.
i was able to get ahold of his breeder and our decision is to get the tooth pulled, but keep it, and have the vet write up a note saying the missing tooth is not genetically at fault.
once his mouth is fully healed i will take him out to a few shows and see how it goes.
He's a nice boy, maybe not specials material, but still a nice boy, so if he bombs at these shows and it is obvious that it is because of the missing tooth, then i will have to speak to his breeder again to determine what to do from there.if i have a vet note, and the tooth in a baggie, i should not be judged too harshly? if it used to be there i see no reason not to be judged fairly. also, are judges not allowed to ask?
~Charlene
dmcarty might have a different view, as she is a judge… but in my experience... I don't think that you can take that in the ring with you? And again, in my experience, 99% of judges would not look at it anyway even if you did...
Here is a question, is it on the show side or the "off" show side? If on the off show side, I would bet that 99% of the time, most judges might not even notice it was missing. Many times they just raise the lips enough to see how the bite closes....
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if i have a vet note, and the tooth in a baggie, i should not be judged too harshly? if it used to be there i see no reason not to be judged fairly. also, are judges not allowed to ask?
A judge CANNOT look at some note.
They are judging the dog's conformation, as it is, on that day and time, not how it was when it had the tooth, etc.
ONE tooth missing is not a big deal, so who really cares. :confused:
There is no DQ in the basenji breed, teeth are only required to be in a scissors bite. That is looking at the front, not the molars.As a judge, I have been asoutnded at how many exhibitors/breeders will actualy show a dog with a bad or wry bite. :eek:
BTW… I had a 4x BISS winner.. his missing premolar never seemed to hurt him!! :cool:
