@senjisilly just now saw your reply. Thanks for the pedigree website. I knew about it and it’s a great resource.
Breeding Using Younger Dogs
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Visited the Klassics kennel page and she is using a dog well under a year this season and she certainly isn´t an unknown breeder.Not to critize but isn´t that a bit too young?
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What health testing have they done?
It sure does sound too young to me.
I have to share what I heard years ago ring side. Yes at a AKC basenji show.
Don't know who said it, but it shocked me even then.
They said, yes, show and breed them young, before any of the "troubles" show up.
I will leave that to you all to figure out what they meant. -
Visited the Klassics kennel page and she is using a dog well under a year this season and she certainly isn´t an unknown breeder.Not to critize but isn´t that a bit too young?
It is young, but as I said, if it were me and I was looking to use a very young male (not that I am planning on doing that) but here are the things I would consider….
1. Prelim hips and elbows
2. Eye Exam
3. Fanconi - (this particular dog is from two Clear parents, so it is not quite as important, however for me, I think it should be done)
4. Thyroid
5. Age of the parents....
In this case the sire of this particular dog was born in 1997 and is still living, Dam of this particular dog was born in 2000, obviously living
Grandsire of the dog still living born in 1995, Grand dam of this dog born 1992 and died in 2006 at at 14, Grandsire on the bottom side born in 1898, died at 14, and Grand dam born 1997 and still living.
So, that give a very good long life for this particular dog's pedigree which would for me play into using a dog of this age -
It is young, but as I said, if it were me and I was looking to use a very young male (not that I am planning on doing that) but here are the things I would consider….
1. Prelim hips and elbows
2. Eye Exam
3. Fanconi - (this particular dog is from two Clear parents, so it is not quite as important, however for me, I think it should be done)
4. Thyroid
5. Age of the parents....
In this case the sire of this particular dog was born in 1997 and is still living, Dam of this particular dog was born in 2000, obviously living
Grandsire of the dog still living born in 1995, Grand dam of this dog born 1992 and died in 2006 at at 14, Grandsire on the bottom side born in 1898, died at 14, and Grand dam born 1997 and still living.
So, that give a very good long life for this particular dog's pedigree which would for me play into using a dog of this ageThanks, this helps me understand more specifically what to look for in this situation. (particularly #5, I was already looking at 1-4 thanks to previous forum comments).
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I know many breeders who are well known in the breed and who have been breeding for a long time, who will breed very young dogs. I have also seen this practice produce dogs that have health issues. The common justifications that I have heard, "This is the last litter the bitch is going to have so if I want this breeding I have to do it now" and "I know my line and xyz isn't a problem so it's okay"
I would really look closely at the vertical pedigree data on a young dog that is being considered, use Sally's reverse pedigree function and look at what the parents have produced in any older sibs or cousins. This is a little time consuming to have to go back and forth between Sally's database and the OFA one but can really show some trends you might be surprised by.
Also be aware that there are known breeders with show winners, who are BCOA members who have bred dogs that are known to be dysplastic, meaning you can look them up in the OFA database and see they had them x-rayed, knew the results and bred anyways. There are breeders who have bred dogs who have tested as Fanconi Carriers by marker test to untested or worse. So just because they are well known in the breed does not mean they meet the criteria for responsible.
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Thanks again for the input.
Is there a way to see if a dog is still alive that I am missing? The pedigree site doesn't tell you and it wasn't obvious on the AKC or OFA site either. The breeder of the younger dog doesn't have a website that I can tell.
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To answer my own question, I guess the breeder or owner would have to go to the effort to report this. Maybe that is unlikely.
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It is not really that easy to verify whether a dog is still living or not without talking to the owner or breeder. Many of us who do showing or performance are familiar with each other and keep track of that information for well known dogs.
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Neither the OFA or Sally Wallis's pedigree site lists date of death so there is no place to report it, the CPP site now has a place for date of death, but not that many use it or have their information as an open database… the only way to know is if the breeder tells you and/or you happen to know the dogs. In the case of the ones that I noted... I know both the breeders and on some of the lists we all post and talk when one of ours crosses the Rainbow Bridge... and those of us that have web sites will usually note it on there too. If you would like to contact me privately (you can go to my profile and get either my email or my website that has a link to my email) I would happy to tell you what I might or might not know about the pedigree you are looking at.....
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Neither the OFA or Sally Wallis's pedigree site lists date of death so there is no place to report it, the CPP site now has a place for date of death, but not that many use it or have their information as an open database… the only way to know is if the breeder tells you and/or you happen to know the dogs. In the case of the ones that I noted... I know both the breeders and on some of the lists we all post and talk when one of ours crosses the Rainbow Bridge... and those of us that have web sites will usually note it on there too. If you would like to contact me privately (you can go to my profile and get either my email or my website that has a link to my email) I would happy to tell you what I might or might not know about the pedigree you are looking at.....
Thanks. I might do that after I meet the breeder this week. Right now, I'm doing as Ivoss suggested and looking through the reverse pedigrees and comparing with the OFA site.
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Thanks. I might do that after I meet the breeder this week. Right now, I'm doing as Ivoss suggested and looking through the reverse pedigrees and comparing with the OFA site.
Always a good thing to do…..
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I just wanted to mention…...OFA is not the only process where hips can be checked for dysplasia. Penn Hip is a more precise measurement and it can be done as early as 4 months of age. Unfortunately, as far as I know, Penn Hip does not have an online database like OFA does so it is impossible to "check up on" breeders who prefer to use this method.
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I just wanted to mention…...OFA is not the only process where hips can be checked for dysplasia. Penn Hip is a more precise measurement and it can be done as early as 4 months of age. Unfortunately, as far as I know, Penn Hip does not have an online database like OFA does so it is impossible to "check up on" breeders who prefer to use this method.
That is correct, Penn Hip does not have an online database.. however if a breeder were to tell you that they have had hips done using Penn Hip, I would think they have some type of certificate with the results. So if a breeder were to say to me that they used Penn Hip, I would ask to see or get a copy of that certificate.
Also, note that many breeders will say "I had the hips xray'ed and my Vet said they were fine"… Your regular Vet can not and does not read these xrays and many time what they think is totally different the the 3 Vets that read the results for OFA. I have heard Vets say, "Oh these are good or excellent" only to get back a "fair" from OFA. Or can be the other way... "oh these will be rated good" and come back excellent... And I would question people that do that because you can mark the OFA form for Hips/Elbows that if the dog doesn't pass and is determined Dyplastic that the results are not made public.
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I just wanted to mention…...OFA is not the only process where hips can be checked for dysplasia. Penn Hip is a more precise measurement and it can be done as early as 4 months of age. Unfortunately, as far as I know, Penn Hip does not have an online database like OFA does so it is impossible to "check up on" breeders who prefer to use this method.
Actually breeders who want to use PennHip and would like those results published can submit the results and a recording fee to OFA and they will be recorded in the public database. There is no reason why results should not be publicly accessible unless a breeder chooses to not make them so by not submitting them with the recording fee. Same goes for CERF, there are still many who do not submit their fee to make them public which is a loss for the whole breeding community.
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If you would like to contact me privately (you can go to my profile and get either my email or my website that has a link to my email) I would happy to tell you what I might or might not know about the pedigree you are looking at…..
Tanza,
I'm going to send you an email about this today. If you have the time, I'd appreciate your knowledge regarding the pedigrees. Puppies are going to be born soon, and I need to make a decision regarding which breeder I want to go with. This is getting to be a little more stressful than I wanted it to be!Clay
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Tanza,
I'm going to send you an email about this today. If you have the time, I'd appreciate your knowledge regarding the pedigrees. Puppies are going to be born soon, and I need to make a decision regarding which breeder I want to go with. This is getting to be a little more stressful than I wanted it to be!Clay
Sure, no problem. Just go to my homepage (website) and email link is there.
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Breeding a dog under one year is IMO not quite right. I don't know if I would even go with a prelim that young. There is a reason the OFA won't cert dogs under two years-their bones are not fully developed. Even a prelim under that age IMO cannot be an exact science. And yes, I do know breeders that have used dogs under a year. It's just not for me. For one thing, while many dogs look good young, as they age they lose the 'it' factor. This can be said for dogs that look terrible when they are young and age beautifully. But I would rather have it this way than breed too young. Just because they are 'reputable' breeders or are listed does not mean it's good practice.
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Do let us know what you decide re this breeder.
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While I don't typically like to use young dogs.. but if or/when I would considering there are many other things that would come into a decision… again, as I said before, one important thing I would look at is the ages of parents, grand parents, great grandparents... and the health testing on them and by looking at a vertical pedigree...
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I completely agree with Pat on this one.
I know that Pam/Sheila [Eldorado] used our Rocket Man last year.
They bred him to a clear bitch, and were really hoping for more than the 1 clear that they got… Sean [RWD at the national] was their clear pup.
So, they pre-limmed Sean this year and used him on two bitches; for one, it was her last litter and a way for them to continue forward with these bloodlines and producing all clear puppies.
I see absolutely NOTHING wrong with this…. they did the health testing... the dam herself is older and Sean's sire turned 14 last month.
The pedigree is laden with health-testing WITH GOOD RESULTS.It is completely different than the PP mentioning using a young male that wasn't pre-limmed, and although the sire is I think she said 12, has produced enough HD to make using this dog WITHOUT pre-lim testing quite risky.
Sure, it can be done, but why make it so there could be potential problems in unborn pups? It's better to give them the best possible start in life that you can.
And, since a pup over six months old can be pre-limmed, there is ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSES for not having it done!!!I also agree that you do not trust someone saying "my vet looked at them and they are fine" Sorry, if you are willing to put the $150-300 into the health-testing you are just not going to balk at the miniscule $35 to have an OFA certification number for your results!
