Pedigree dogs exposed

[Janneke]

This documantary was yesterday on television (BBC)

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[Janneke]

Direct links:

1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1LyjlX4Mp8
2: http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=kcUbCvS0ZEM&feature=user
3: http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=SpR5su-PQ0g&feature=user
4: http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=QDKwbWA5Tdg&feature=user
5: http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=Szl30xomLXo&feature=user
6: http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=nFJffepQY3Y&feature=user

[snorky998]

Took the time to watch this today. Thank you for posting it.

What struck me the hardest was the kennel club guy who said multiple times (paraphrased) that if they enforced any kind of limit on familial breeding or from known genetically defective dogs it would alienate those breeders that continue these problems, then they would lose contact with those breeders who would continue to breed outside of the kennel club and continue breeding genetic disasters.

Is that what you see in our breeders that continue to breed the known affected or non-tested Basenji?
What about your opinions of "culled pups" as noted in the Rhodesian segment.
For those that breed to show, how about the fact that the Peke that was best in show had reconstructive surgery to aide in his breathing, when it's a known genetic deficiency and he's sired something like 32 litters.

It's hard to watch the first 2 segments, but an eye opener. Again, thank you Janneke.

[lvoss]

Surgically altering a dog makes it ineligible to be shown under AKC rules. There are still people who will do so but it is cheating. Anyone who is considering stud service needs to their homework just like anyone looking for a puppy. There are good breeders and bad ones and you need to use the resources available to you to sort through them.

As for rules for breeding, I truly believe that the statement made at the end of the GI Joe cartoons they played when I was kid was great advice, "Knowledge is Power". Education is the best tool, educated buyers make educated decisions and will require more from breeders. Most of the dogs in my city are unlicensed even though it is against the law. The kennel club is correct when they say making rules are not going to stop people from doing the wrong thing. Public searchable health databases and an educated public who knows how to use them and interpret results has an effect.

Breeders are able to sell offspring of untested parents or parents who have a high likelihood of producing Affected because the public isn't educated enough to walk away from those breedings.

[tanza]

And do not "challenge" breeders with the hard questions… about testing and about their dogs. We have "breeders" that are well know here in the US that are doing breedings that are considered not acceptable... Carrier to Carrier, Hip that will not OFA, Un-tested to Un-tested, Carrier to Un-tested... which is not fair to people that are buying these pups thinking that they did go to a responsible breeder but are not given the facts, nor do they do the homework to reasearch... And understandable, when you think about it.. a person that is well known, shows, has many champions, people might think that OK, they are responsible... only to find out later they were not... so in the end, makes them no better then the BYB that breeds and sells over the internet without even interviewing potential buyers...
And then add to that a rescue org that refuses to DNA test for Fanconi... and you really start to wonder...
OK off the soap box...... can you all tell I had a bad day???

[sharronhurlbut]

We can only educate those who are open to hearing.

Sorry you day was so bad.

[tanza]

@sharronhurlbut:

We can only educate those who are open to hearing.

Sorry you day was so bad.

For sure there and we just keep on "keeping" on…. and do what we can... as they say... every day is a new day

[Andrew]

Thanks for posting this… it was a real eye opener. The neurological disorders in the CKCS was really really difficult to watch & the way they described the brain being too big for the skull... very sad. Again, very thankful for responsible basenji breeders & for a breed that is still so relatively "untampered" with.

[Christiane]

Hello, tried to watch those videos but got the message "sorry, this video is no longer available". Does this come from Youtube?

[Janneke]

@Christiane:

Hello, tried to watch those videos but got the message "sorry, this video is no longer available". Does this come from Youtube?

Yeah.. that's why I also have the written links.. they're in my second post.

[Janneke]

@lvoss:

Surgically altering a dog makes it ineligible to be shown under AKC rules. There are still people who will do so but it is cheating. Anyone who is considering stud service needs to their homework just like anyone looking for a puppy. There are good breeders and bad ones and you need to use the resources available to you to sort through them.

This wasn't plastic surgery, so then they can't be denied from the ring, right? I do think that everyone should do their homework, but for a normal puppy buyer a breeder with a Crufts BIS winner looks very very responsible.

@lvoss:

As for rules for breeding, I truly believe that the statement made at the end of the GI Joe cartoons they played when I was kid was great advice, "Knowledge is Power". Education is the best tool, educated buyers make educated decisions and will require more from breeders. Most of the dogs in my city are unlicensed even though it is against the law. The kennel club is correct when they say making rules are not going to stop people from doing the wrong thing. Public searchable health databases and an educated public who knows how to use them and interpret results has an effect.

I think that it would help to 1. educate people about the importance of a dog with a pedigree and 2. make sure that a pedigree can be trusted.. And therefore you need rules.. No healthtesting before breeding?? No pedigree.. And without healthtesting, no championship title.. And I really do think that this would help. (with a good control system)

@lvoss:

Breeders are able to sell offspring of untested parents or parents who have a high likelihood of producing Affected because the public isn't educated enough to walk away from those breedings.

Yes, and of course you always have people who ignore important information… :mad:

[sharronhurlbut]

Lets hope the folks on this forum can share the info they learn to people who are not on it, or have picked up their b's from a petshop.
As someone says, once you know better, you do better.
I believe that.

[tsjoe007]

Well folks, I saw the broadcast real time … BBC I believe. It was simply horrible. I hope it won't come to this with our beloved Basenjis. The item on the Cavalier was disgusting. A good advice from a newbie : back to basics !!!:mad:
Zoals de heren van Kooten en de Bie pleegden te zeggen : leef met vlag en wimpel maar hou het simpel !

[Janneke]

@tsjoe007:

Zoals de heren van Kooten en de Bie pleegden te zeggen : leef met vlag en wimpel maar hou het simpel !

Helemaal mee eens!!

[Janneke]

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/2004/23/5/3

http://www.webchats.tv/chats/Petcare/wwwthekennelcluborguk/

[reddfox321]

@Andrew:

Thanks for posting this… it was a real eye opener. The neurological disorders in the CKCS was really really difficult to watch & the way they described the brain being too big for the skull... very sad. Again, very thankful for responsible basenji breeders & for a breed that is still so relatively "untampered" with.

I would say that creating a Basenji standard from a handful of dogs was pretty irresponsible. I think strategically adding "wild stock" was responsible but that more of an effort should be made to dilute or eliminate genetic disorders due to inbreeding. This really isn't an "untampered" breed.

EDIT: Just noticed the studbook has been reopened. This can only be a good thing.
http://www.akc.org/pdfs/about/board_minutes/0808.pdf

[tanza]

@reddfox321:

I would say that creating a Basenji standard from a handful of dogs was pretty irresponsible. I think strategically adding "wild stock" was responsible but that more of an effort should be made to dilute or eliminate genetic disorders due to inbreeding. This really isn't an "untampered" breed.

I totally disagree with your statement. While I think that it is great that we have added and accepted native stock and it helps expand the gene pool, I think that we have done an excellent job in retaining "Basenji Type"… it is not about a standard it is about "type"

[reddfox321]

@tanza:

I totally disagree with your statement. While I think that it is great that we have added and accepted native stock and it helps expand the gene pool, I think that we have done an excellent job in retaining "Basenji Type"… it is not about a standard it is about "type"

The crux of the argument presented in the videos is that we have become enamored with and breed for form at the expense of long term vitality. You believe that importing a handful (6-7) dogs and (in)breeding the progeny exclusively for 50 or more years was responsible? Then I suppose we will have to disagree and leave it at that. Mind you, this inbreeding is what brought about the "unusually high frequency of serious genetic disorders" such as Fanconi and IPSID. Like the video said, having a genetic diversity of 6-7 individuals is enough to put an animal on the endangered species list, why would that be acceptable when it comes to dog breeds? This is not an attack on the breed. This is a criticism, backed by biology, on the failings of past methodologies.

I'm not sure what you mean by type vs form. Could you explain?

[sharronhurlbut]

IMO, bringing in new blood from Africa is a good thing..

[tanza]

Please note that now that there is a DNA test for fanconi now gives us the ability to use many lines in a breeding program. Since a recessive gene, we can use Carriers and Affecteds with Clears and not have to eliminate different lines. This along with using the newer imports will expand the gene pool… This is something that should have happened when DNA testing for HA was found, however it was not. That in my opinion is what really caused the huge bottle neck in the gene pool. And in my opinion IPSID is not as large as a problem as you seem to think it is.... so serious genetic disorders IMO were/are HA, Fanconi as the most well known. We do have others, these are the most well know.

Type and form can be considered the same... the written standard that you refer to earlier is "written" words on what the "perfect" Basenjis should/would look like and was developed from the very first Basenjis from the 40's.... it has not changed much in all these years. Each person looks at the standard and decides what is important to them and what they think each part of the standard looks like in their mind...

To me, type is the overall appearance of the dog... that you can look across a field at a dog standing there and know without a second thought that it is a Basenji.