Is it wrong for people to create their own breeds of dogs?

[gbroxon]

If someone truly wants to put in the years and years of effort to create a new breed of dog, I say more power to them. Unfortunately, I don't know of many who are interested in doing this. I'm of the impression that people selling puggles, for instance, always breed a beagle to a pug…they're not interested in spending the time and money to develop it into a true breed...one that will always breed true when a puggle is bred to a puggle.

[Quercus]

And…my question is why, there are thousands of breeds of dogs already out there, all created to do different jobs? Is there someone so full of hubris that they actually think THEY can create the perfect dog? I think if you interviewed 100 people about their perfect dog, you would get close to 100 different answers. Most everyone has had a dog in their past that was 'perfect'. All different breeds, mixes, personalities, sizes, haircoats. There is no mix of genes that will guarantee a great pet.

[Quercus]

@Barklessdog:

I'm sure a lot of breeders want their dogs to finish champions in the ring for higher costing puppies or stud fees. When we showed our dog, you saw a lot of people it's a business, but I don't doubt they don't love their dogs or breed.

Uh, I don't know anybody who does that. Prices are pretty much set by what the market in your area can bear, and what other breeders in your area charge. I know of a few dogs that are for sale or stud for a lot more than I could or would pay…but that is because they have a long winning record(as in top winning dogs in the country)...not just a championship.

I don't know anyone that breeds/shows basenjis as a business

[Barklessdog]

The one thing I admired about basenji's is they are not created by modern man. My understanding is breeders work toward perfecting and protecting a possibly disappearing breed from the wild. Working toward breeding "REAL" positive traits in the dogs, like good temperament and health, not turning them into something else.

To me that is a huge difference.

As far as some AKC breeds, I can't figure out why breeders would want to continue certain breeds, or what the positive attributes are in breeding dogs with noses that cause breathing problems (pugs & bull dogs), dogs with weak hind quarters (german shepherds that when walking look crippled to me) or dogs that have the ability to kill humans. Someone explain why this is a good idea?

To carry on with someone's twisted idea of a dog by a group of farmers or dog fighters created something back in the industrial age for a propose no longer necessary or humane?

When comparing the so called "pet mix breeds" to some AKC ones, at least the pet ones are trying to breed a good "pet" that is not a monstrosity, unhealthy-inhumane or a purse accessory.

I'm not saying all AKC breeds are monstrosities, by I personally believe if a trait is not a healthy one for the dog, why carry it on?

[Barklessdog]

don't know anyone that breeds/shows basenjis as a business

Not with basenji's that I have seen. Where we go on vacation there is a Jack Russell breeder near our cottage that keeps their dogs in chain link pens back behind their house. I can't imagine that those people are not trying to make money at this (I pity their neighbors with the constant barking). I have driven by a German Shepherd breeder in Chicago where you can see a bunch of outdoor pens. I also believe that they probably love their dogs, but are making it a business.

Are they mistreating the dogs by keeping them like that?

[Quercus]

@Barklessdog:

Not with basenji's that I have seen. Where we go on vacation there is a Jack Russell breeder near our cottage that keeps their dogs in chain link pens back behind their house. I can't imagine that those people are not trying to make money at this (I pity their neighbors with the constant barking). I have driven by a German Shepherd breeder in Chicago where you can see a bunch of outdoor pens. I also believe that they probably love their dogs, but are making it a business.

Are they mistreating the dogs by keeping them like that?

Oh…well, there ARE basenji breeders that keep their dogs like that with the sole purpose for making more puppies to sell. I don't personally KNOW any of them. That is, none of the people that I interact with (i.e. other BCOA members, people that I see at shows, friends etc.) make it a business to breed Basenjis.

I don't know if I would call that mistreating the dogs. I don't want to keep my dogs like that, because I value them as family members. But dogs are pretty versatile creatures.

But we have diverged from our original topic...those people aren't likely making new breeds...they are breeding and selling puppies for profit. I have no idea whether they are breeding the dogs ethically, or responsibly..it is possible...you can't tell from looking from the outside, unless the dogs are ill, dirty, cold, etc.

I think that in some breeds you could, possibly be able to do everything right (testing, care, etc) and still make a profit breeding dogs. In our breed, no, because we have a small demand for puppies, we have high buyer screening requirements, and small litters.

[wizard]

An interesting question to start with - why should we humans want to change anything out there in creation?
Sometimes a particular trait helps make our life easier - whether its a dog that can herd our sheep more effectively or a rose with fewer thorns or cereal grain that matures sooner so it can be harvested sooner. But yes sometimes it is just to make money off the rubes - zebra danios were initially injected with a dye to make them florescent and flash more in the aquarium but now that is done genetically - no real advantage there except to fleece the rubes.
The market (bucks) rules motivation in some people - sad to say.

[Barklessdog]

Fox hounds

I saw a special on Fox hounds on Breed All about It- they said they are bred for fox hunting and only fox hunting. The breeders said they are not pets. You release them and they hunt, that's it.

While on vacation in Michigan, we went horse back riding on this guys ranch. He asks if we want to see his dogs he has bred. We say yes and he takes us in back where he has rows of chained dogs living on a dirt mounds with little plastic igloo houses. The poop rolls off the mounds.

They resembled fox hounds but much larger with bigger heads. He said they were his hunting dogs and thats all they were for. It reminded me of the way you see sled dog people keep dogs. I don't think the dogs were mistreated, at least no more than cattle or other "livestock", it's just a rural attitude of what dogs are for by hunters. They were not pets.

He said they lived to hunt and love doing it.

[Barklessdog]

why should we humans want to change anything out there in creation?

I dont see much difference from today's pet breeders from the breeders of long ago creating their breeds. The breeds intent is just for different goals.

Bishons & other breeds were created & intended as "pets for royalty".

I'm sure the early French royalty, pig farmers or whomever that created a breed followed today's breeding guidelines.

Is the pet market is playing "God", where a Rat terrier was created to kill rats, a job to be done, not the same?

What was the breeding goal of the pug?
To have serious breathing problems or was it just to see how deformed we could make a dog?

What is the goal of making a German Shepherd with such weak hind quarters they look as if they have been hobbled or had a serious hip injury?

How are any of these traits desirable in anyway?

I personally believe, like basenji breeding, you want to make the HEALTHIEST, best tempered dog, not a fashion freak or to see how far you can push a species genetics.

Just my opinion.

[lvoss]

@Barklessdog:

When comparing the so called "pet mix breeds" to some AKC ones, at least the pet ones are trying to breed a good "pet" that is not a monstrosity, unhealthy-inhumane or a purse accessory.

I am sorry but this is just not true. The people who are breeding "pet mix breeds" are not doing health testing and are not really very concerned with temperament or soundness. They claim they don't have to worry about health because of "hybrid vigor" which does not exist when you cross two animals of the same species. They use breed stereotypes when supporting their choice but not the reality of the animals they actually have. Though Golden Retrievers are known for being friendly that does not mean that all Golden Retrievers are and I have seen many badly bred ones with really bad temperaments.

As for the monstrosities you talk about, that is driven by the pet industry. As more and more dogs are sold as pets and not as working dogs the deviations or exaggerations of the parts described in their standards are tolerated because the dogs do not serve the function they were originally bred for. A German Shepherd with a weak rear can not do the job for which they are intended. Dogs with muzzles so short they have breathing problems can not do what they are meant to do either but these dogs don't really have a job in our modern world. This is not because they are purebreds it is because they have lost purpose.

[Barklessdog]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuGNC7ZYWIw

Watch the way this dog walks, he looks like he had a spine injury or his rear legs are wrong. It's just bizarre to me. How is this good for a dog?

Why would the AKC hold this as a standard?

[tanza]

@Barklessdog:

Not with basenji's that I have seen. Where we go on vacation there is a Jack Russell breeder near our cottage that keeps their dogs in chain link pens back behind their house. I can't imagine that those people are not trying to make money at this (I pity their neighbors with the constant barking). I have driven by a German Shepherd breeder in Chicago where you can see a bunch of outdoor pens. I also believe that they probably love their dogs, but are making it a business.

Are they mistreating the dogs by keeping them like that?

And you can add these people to the list of BYB (and we have way too many of them in our breed too), NOT responsible breeders… so, sorry, I don't really see your point?

[lvoss]

But that is my point, it is not the AKC standard. Everyone blames AKC but truly most of the things that people complain about are not what the standard calls for. Here is the introduction to the German Shepherd standard:

German Shepherd Dog Breed Standard
Herding Group

General Appearance
The first impression of a good German Shepherd Dog is that of a strong, agile, well muscled animal, alert and full of life. It is well balanced, with harmonious development of the forequarter and hindquarter. The dog is longer than tall, deep-bodied, and presents an outline of smooth curves rather than angles. It looks substantial and not spindly, giving the impression, both at rest and in motion, of muscular fitness and nimbleness without any look of clumsiness or soft living. The ideal dog is stamped with a look of quality and nobility–difficult to define, but unmistakable when present. Secondary sex characteristics are strongly marked, and every animal gives a definite impression of masculinity or femininity, according to its sex.

If you read this paragraph it is clearly spelled out that the breed should be well balanced and give impression of athleticism. That is the AKC standard, if breeders are not doing that it is not because AKC has set a standard that says that they should have exagerrated rears and movement is irrelevant.

[tanza]

@Barklessdog:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuGNC7ZYWIw

Watch the way this dog walks, he looks like he had a spine injury or his rear legs are wrong. It's just bizarre to me. How is this good for a dog?

Why would the AKC hold this as a standard?

Please remember the breed standard doesn't come from AKC, it comes from the Breed Parent club….

[Barklessdog]

Last time I was in a dog show in Chicago all the German Shepherds looked and moved like that. Someone is accepting this in the ring or they would not be awarding people with dogs like this.

I agree the breed standard you post says nothing about them walking like that or there legs being out of proportion.

Somebody is supporting this judging by Westminster, the only dog bred to walk like that in the shepherd group
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uSmCMDsSu4

When you think about it how else would you create a dog to move with a sloped back like that?

[Barklessdog]

You knows whats funny & sad at the same time?

Watching those German Shepherds walk and their odd lines reminded me of another animal. Both have the same lines and move the same way. I can't think of any other dog bred to have such a sloped back and walk so weird.

[tanza]

@Barklessdog:

Last time I was in a dog show in Chicago all the German Shepherds looked and moved like that. Someone is accepting this in the ring or they would not be awarding people with dogs like this.

I agree the breed standard you post says nothing about them walking like that or there legs being out of proportion.

Somebody is supporting this judging by Westminster, the only dog bred to walk like that in the shepherd group
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uSmCMDsSu4

When you think about it how else would you create a dog to move with a sloped back like that?

And again, what is your point? What does this have to do with your question about "creating" a mix mutt breed? What is happening with GSD's is something that would need to be addressed with the parent club….

[Barklessdog]

The point is that people who breed dogs to be better pets suits today's world better in this day vs carrying on some AKC accepted man made breed whose form is guided by outdated and sometimes unacceptable roles, as well as physically problematic to the dogs. How does breeding a German Shepherd to walk like that make it a better dog in anyway?

If it's not better for the dog, why continue with that trait?
Why not breed a dog to be the best it can be, physically.

I do agree that any & all animal breeders should be responsible. That's not the the point here. That's a given. More so, why not make better dogs that suit our world today?

The designer mixed breed is supposed to be a BETTER PET for your family. To me that's a nobler cause than trying to breed out the fighting spirit of a dog bred centuries ago for fighting, which is totally unacceptable today as a purpose. Seems backwards to me.

What purpose does the lack of a nose serve the Pug, but chronic nasal & breathing problems?

Where I can see it, is with the non man created dogs, like Basenji, Singing Dogs & Dingos. The mission is preservation, not playing God. If you decide to play God than make a dog who is a better.

That's the point.

[tanza]

Key to your statement is "supposed" to be a better pet?… How is that a nobler cause?... when they breed dogs together and have no idea what they are mixing or getting... IMO, that is want these people that are only in it to make a quick buck what everyone to believe, "they" are breeding the better pet..?....

[Barklessdog]

How is that a nobler cause?

It is if the dog does not designed to phyically suffer because someone years ago thought it would be desirable or cute. Why does anyone need a dog with the jaw strength of a pit bulls?

when they breed dogs together and have no idea what they are mixing or getting..

The ones I have seen- Labrodoodles, people love them, the great obediant Lab that does not shed . I dont think you can broad blanket designer dogs that way. Nor can I say all AKC breeds are not well bred.

I don't think these people seem to be irresponsible. You find as many if not more irresponsible AKC dog breeders as any dog. Most the puppy mills I have read about bred AKC dogs.

http://labradoodles.com/_wsn/page2.html

The Hahn name has long been associated in the United States with the breeding of world class show horses and ponies and with fine dogs. Since the early 1970’s our puppies have been in high demand, recognized for the quality and for the integrity of the family who stand behind them.

Long experience with Poodles and a strong inventory on hand was a perfect springboard for the Labradoodle & Goldendoodle breeding program begun in the mid 1990's - the first major breeder in the United States of these fine dogs.
To bring the program to fruition we secured through painstaking searches and evaluations an outstanding treasury of Labrador Retrievers and Golden Retrievers. They had to be from breeders we knew and trusted and to be well bred, genetically sound, and with lines known for good temperaments. Body structure and attractiveness were other important considerations. All the acquired breeding stock were registered with the American Kennel Club and exemplified the breed standards in health, temperament and conformation.
Once the breeding partners were gathered it was not very long before more than a few folks were calling and stopping by in search of those "good looking doodle puppies". Now, a decade later, Gleneden dogs can be found in loving homes not only in our Blue Ridge region of northern Virginia but across the breadth of America and in other lands as well.

Each puppy is a treasure. We place puppies one at a time, taking into consideration the suitability of the prospective home. This is done in a positive spirit, not one of trying to be “exclusive" but rather in knowing from lengthy experience that some situations are just not conducive for a good dog - human family relationship. And that is something we care about, a lot.