Whining That Never Stops!

[agilebasenji]

I guess I don't understand why you say an expen won't work before you even try it. There have been a lot of good suggestions here. Personally, I would not try the Benedryl, for reasons mentioned AND b/c you have no idea when it will wear off. Have you tried a DAP? (I don't think that's the sole answer, but part of the solution.) Have you tried another behavourist? If she used to be okay in the crate, but is now having severe problems with it, have you tried looking for a medical based reason? (Full thyroid pannel? An off thyroid can cause behavoir problems.) If the basement is a remote place, then it is not a good crate place. I live in a house that is about 1100 square feet. In the living room I have 2 crates AND an expen. One crate for the baby (13month old basenji), one crate for the malinois and an expen for the tri-ing basenji. In the expen there are 2 beds, a doggie sleeping bag, a heated pad, 2 blankets, some toys/bones/etc and it is infront of the sliding glass window so he can catch some rays. (It is a regular sized xpen, you just can't see the floor in there.) He loves being in there, in fact, all the dogs love being in there. Yes, depending on where you're trying to go, some of those things are in the way, but the dogs are happy.

It is very important that you don't use correction based training with this. It is a phobia. Susan Garrett has a new dvd out called Crate Games. It's a good video and while it isn't created for your type of situation, it might be a part of the solution and will be helpful in re-training. Also, I'll be Home Soon by McConnell should also help. Both of those are available at dogwise.com.

As to how long this takes, it really depends on you and how severe her phobia is. It always takes much longer to re-train a behavior.

[sharronhurlbut]

I know it sounds like we are slamming you, but we want you to see your the one with the power.
It won't be easy, and it won't be quick…if that is the type of answer you were looking for, then really, you DO need to rehome this dog.
BUT given you have said you love this b and want to make it work, then YOU need to make it happen.
Again, we will support, but its not going to be quick and you will have to do some thing to make this dog happy.
Sorry, if this sounds harsh, but that is the reality.

[JazzysMom]

I have been reading these posts and trying to figure out if or how to weigh in.

Most of you who've been here at least a few months know that I live with Keoki – if not the King, then the Prince of Separation and Crate Anxiety, not to mention a few other little "mental quirks". And you all know how much I ADORE my baby boy!!!!

He came to us at about 3 mos old. We already had one older mixed breed dog, and a 2 yr old Basenji female. We expected a few nights of crying, but nothing prepared us for the month of SCREAMING and crate tearing that would follow. He not only completely destroyed any bedding that was in the crate with him, but also did a good bit of damage to the crate itself.
I wound up spending nearly 8 mos sleeping on the floor in front of his crate, repeating all night, "Keoki, go to bed; go to bed....." It was the only way he'd sleep at all.
During the days when he had to be left alone -- which are seldom because I am a stay-at-home mom, he was always SCREAMING when we left the house, and SCREAMING when we got home.
I tried Rescue Remedy, which calmed him somewhat but didn't solve the problem. I stopped using that once I really grasped that the truly active ingredient was alcohol.
I went to a behaviorist/vet who had some good tips, and who also prescribed medications. The first medication seemed to work at first, for a couple of hours, then turned my dog into a crazy drunk.
The second medication did indeed calm him and help him to sleep. But it also changed his personality in a negative way.

The only thing that has brought us any peace is: Putting both of the Basenji crates inside an ex-pen {you can get fairly small ex-pens, if space is problem, BTW. And you just get extra panels for the top and bottom}.
I cannot latch his crate, and I cannot leave any bedding at all inside when he's in there and we are not home.
At first, it didn't help much -- he tore up the outside of both his and Jazzy's {the other B}crates a good bit, and he somehow managed to pull our other dogs bed into the ex-pen through those little tiny squares and tore it all up.

Now he sleeps okay in his crate, as long as it is unlatched and inside the ex-pen. {During the day, he goes in there all the time to sleep.}. Sometimes he crams into Jazzy's crate also, which doesn't thrill her and occasionally causes a small "disagreement".
When we leave him in there during the day, I replace all real bedding with paper towels. He has only recently stopped destroying those.
He now sleeps all night -- that was a goal achieved in November, when Keoki was around 11 mos old.

Our problem is not "solved", but we have a solution we can live with for the time being. Eventually, I'd like to see him over these things, but we'll see..... for now, I am content!

I guess my whole point with this rambling tale is that you are most likely facing a long and tedious battle. Crate fears and Separation anxiety do NOT have easy fixes. Even medical treatments -- IF they work -- are designed to be temporary while you work on behavior training.

You have to be prepared to be in it for the long haul. And if the whole family isn't on board with it, it can get very unpleasant {My dh was NOT happy about the situation, believe me!}

These dogs are so worth it, though. I hope you are able to to work through this.

[kng]

When I adopted my girl, I was told to crate her but she had terrible anxiety attacks when she went into the crate. What I did was make sure she got a long walk every morning before I'll leave the house, and I know it's not easy but I was up at 4AM to take her out. If weather is a problem, try her on a treadmill. She needs to be tired when you leave. The other thing I did was to basenji proof my house. I had to put child safety locks on my kitchen cabinets because she could open then up. Every once in awhile she would do something but never anything significant. The nipping sound like more frustration then anything. I got my girl because the person who had her before said she was mean and out of control and gave her up. I really believe that comes out of frustration.
I think a behaviorist who believes there is no hope for a dog shouldn't be working with dogs. You may want to try someone else.

[JazzysMom]

@kng:

I think a behaviorist who believes there is no hope for a dog shouldn't be working with dogs. You may want to try someone else.

AMEN!!!

Amen, Amen, Amen.

[rheidt]

I've just spent the evening trying to catch up on everyone's suggestions. And I've come across some good ideas. And in response with the xpen, the reason it's not an option is because where I currently live there is just no space. Literally. I had to move in with my father and it's his home, in which case there is one area that may be used for a xpen, if it hadn't been a room full of priceless item's belonging to my dad. I did discuss this option to see if there was anywhere else we could put it, and there is not. I have contacted a couple trainers/behaviorists around the area and am awaiting their response. I will be getting her a new crate this week and plan on moving it to a more desirable area for her. She is potty trained however, leaving her out even if she's in my room, she has been having accidents for some reason, even if she's in there for a short time. What do you give a dog for toys, when she really doesn't touch them to begin with, and doesn't want anything to do with them while she's crated? I've tried peanut butter or cheese when I leave the house to distract her as she likes those, and it seems to help for short periods but then she gets distressed again. Hopefully I can put a structured plan together to make this work for her. I know when I'm able to move into a place that is my own, I would then try the xpen, just right now, it's not an option for me. I'm trying to work around a very stubborn dad, and my b can be very stubborn herself.

[lvoss]

Have you had her checked for a UTI? If she has a UTI, she would be uncomfortable and having accidents in the house and in her crate which could be contributing to the phobia. It is hard to feel good about a place when you are in pain or discomfort.

Also, when was the last time you strip tested her urine for glucose?

[JazzysMom]

@rheidt:

I will be getting her a new crate this week and plan on moving it to a more desirable area for her. to begin with, and doesn't want anything to do with them while she's crated? I've tried peanut butter or cheese when I leave the house to distract her as she likes those, and it seems to help for short periods but then she gets distressed again. Hopefully I can put a structured plan together to make this work for her. I know when I'm able to move into a place that is my own, I would then try the xpen, just right now, it's not an option for me. I'm trying to work around a very stubborn dad, and my b can be very stubborn herself.

I can't recall, so if you've already answered this or if it's been suggested I apologize, but what kind of crate do you have? While I prefer the plastic crates, a wire crate would be the closest to an ex-pen, and would allow her to feel not-so-closed-in.

And the treats don't work with Keoki either. Even things he LOVES, when we're all home together get completely ignored in the crate/pen when we leave him.

[dash]

I feel sorry for you and your dog. I had to move back in with my parents after being on my own for a couple years and it sucked to say the least. He hated my dog so that didn't help.

We too have a crate phobic basenji. He is in an expen during the day. They really aren't that big, just tall. I have been to a trainer to help with his anxiety and I got a collar that has the DAP pheremones in it. It seems to help a little. It only lasts for a month though. That is a thought. Also, the nice thing about these little dogs is that you can exercise them in the house. We chase Dash around in the evenings if it is to cold and it helps take the edge off. We do have second dog to keep him company though. At this point I don't think that there is any amount of drugs that will make her feel comfortable in the crate. I don't think your vet and obviously not the behaviorist you have used has any knowledge of Basenjis. The suggestions you have gotten here are probably the best you can get. Getting her to like the crate may never happen.

The day care idea is great! Do you maybe have a friend that could take her until you can get a place of your own? Basenji's need to be with their pack if not you then someone can give her attention and love. It almost seems like you are too stressed out about the situation to think clearly.

[tanza]

Dash makes some good points and the fact that you are stressed due to the situation and trying to make everyone happy… feeds down to your Basenji... she can pick up on your stress and that might be why she is having accidents in your bedroom....

[JazzysMom]

I think I may have posted these earlier, but just to give an idea to the newbies: This is what Keoki was able to do to Gypsy's bed, which was OUTSIDE the ex-pen, and to a pillow that I foolishly left atop the ex-pen.
He was clearly not happy about being in the pen when I went out.

and here's an inside look at what it USED to look like inside Keoki's crate and inside Jazzy's crate. Since this time he's gotten into her crate and now her bed is also torn all to heck. LOL

He has, as I mentioned previously, begun to calm down a bit and I think I'm going to buy them new beds this payday and see how he does with them.

[sharronhurlbut]

One of my breeders gives the dogs a new roll of papertowels in the crates.
They spend time tearing them to bits, and then have a soft place to rest when they get tired.
Course, you take the plastic off the roll…
He has never had any issues with b's eating the papertowels or any obstructions.
So, thougth I would pass this tip along to you all.

[Ninabeana26]

Wowza! Talk about destruction!

[JazzysMom]

@Ninabeana26:

Wowza! Talk about destruction!

Yeah, :rolleyes: , he's quite a fellow. LOL

And THAT is why we do exactly what Sharron said in the post above – when we go out during the day, Paper Towels go into the pen and Gypsy's {new} bed is in another room.

He's much better at night now and is allowed to have a pillow --it's a bit torn up from his old days, but it works. I'm thinking it's time for a new one, and am curious to see what he does to it to "break it in", or will he accept it as it is and keep it intact {mostly}?

[JazzysMom]

@Ninabeana26:

Wowza! Talk about destruction!

I posted those so you all can see that I feel your pain when you talk about crate crazies!;)

[Quercus]

Yeah…that is the type of destruction that Querk is capable of too. He has shattered two Vari-kennels, and destroyed at least two 'indestructable' crate pans. We have done the paper-towels in the past...and newspaper. Sometimes we will just let him shred a blanket, and keep it in there for a while. But he almost never needs to be crated anymore (he is 9); when he was still intact, he did most of his damage during the heat season, when he was all juiced up anyhow.

[JazzysMom]

Those two crates don't exactly look like that anymore either. He has chewed the outsides of them both up a bit, and all those little "windows' in the gray one are, well, not quite so smooth any more, LOL.

[sharronhurlbut]

I am now lucky that the 2 b's I have can be loose in the house when we are at work.
We have a pet sitter come to the house when we travel, or we take the dogs with, so no crates needed.
My my beloved Cody Ramma, who is the main one who goes nuts in the crate, the vet lets me hold him if he needs a medical proceedure and he gets his sedation, then when he even starts to awake, they phone me and I came get him…so he isn't even crated at the vets.
After telling me he would be fine, the first time I dropped him off..
thinking I was just a silly overprotective "mom"...they learned...
I told them the truth, re his issues with crates..even runs..he just won't do it. They couldn't get him sedated for his dental quick enough for the staff.
I guess the screaming/climbing was beyond belief.
The other folks in the waiting room thought they were abusing an animal in the backroom...and LOUD..yes, he is loud!
He even breaks his teeth off trying to get out.
So, we work around this issue and he doesn't have to deal with it.
He is so worth it.

[MaxBooBooBear]

@sharronhurlbut:

the vet lets me hold him if he needs a medical proceedure and he gets his sedation, then when he even starts to awake, they phone me and I came get him…so he isn't even crated at the vets.
After telling me he would be fine, the first time I dropped him off..
thinking I was just a silly overprotective "mom"...they learned...

He sounds just like my Max. My vet (who took such good care of him) would have me bring him in right before he was ready to do the dental. He would meet me in the reception area and give him his sedative before taking him back. As soon as he woke up after the dental, they'd call me to come and get him.

[Maxie]

@rheidt:

No I do not feed her in her crate, mainly because her crate is located in the basement and she would not have access to it at all times. I do walk her when weather permits, she won't walk if it's too cold, as of late the sub zero temperatures have made it next to impossible to walk her. And when I do walk, it is for around 40 minutes.

Hi Rheidt, I was reading all of your posts about your basenji's crate
and anxiety problems. Did you ever get things resolved? If so, kinds of things did you do that worked?