I am so sorry that this happened to your wife
But I trust my B 100% with children. He has never exhibited any negative behavior towards them. In any event..any child must be supervised with ANY animal!!!! Cats will claw too if they get their tail pulled. That does not mean that cats should not be around children.
I trust NO animal 100% with children.. not 100% with anyone actually, but particularly not with children.
Through my life I've had animals that were great with kids, others that preferred not to be around them. Never had any problems, per se, just could tell that some avoided the kids while others revelled in their company.
Gypsy is awesome with kids of all ages and personalities and in her 13 yrs of life has never even looked askance at a child. I would be STUNNED beyond words if she ever bit one, but there's sure not a guarantee that she won't.
Frankly, my B's are the worst I have ever had with kids. Jazzy is awesome with mine, but growls when other kids come in the house. I think many here are familiar with the fact that she actually bit the little girl I babysit last year, on the face! :eek:
Keoki is better with kids, but even growls at mine if they touch him when he is resting {actually, even growls at dh if he pets him while Keoki is curled up for a nap}. That's a huge problem and one we are always working on, and it's getting better. {Remember, he is the one with "issues":rolleyes: }
I never thought I'd own dogs that couldn't freely be around kids, but here I am. Not saying it's a Basenji "thing", just saying that Jazzy, Keoki, and kids are not a good mix!:(
The key,IMO, is to know your pet, and to provide those that don't care for kids with a place to go to get away from them, and to always be watchful when kids {yours or anyone else's} are around them.
Certainly, if a dog is feeling ill or is in pain, then no kids should be dealing with them anyway. And adults should use extra caution and be prepared for the animal to react in an out-of-character way.
BTW Barkless– so sorry your wife was bitten. Sometimes those naggy-drag-on-forever pains are worse than the the obvious treat-em-and-they-heal kind of things!
Sorry, I don't trust ANY dog 100%. It is an animal not human-no reasoning power. Love mine to death, all five, but would never trust any 100%. Not even the Boxenji with the best attitude ever! There is always that chance. I had one dog who loved everyone, but when someone broke into the back yard, the dog didn't give him a chance.
Your dog in particular would not be referred (if in adoption with this information) to any family with children.
I agree, I would believe he would be the one they would euthanize.
As far as blanket statements go , I believe there are biting dogs in all breeds, but when push comes to shove a basenji is more likely to not back down if he feels threatened. They don't care what people think or rules in that situation.
A small child can put a dog in that situation rather easily. It's not like a big dog where you see kids climbing all over pulling it's ears or tail. A basenji is not going to put up with that.
I know not all basenji's are biters, our other dog is a pretend biter. She acts like she bites you but never does. I guess I just got the wrong Basenji's, one the alpha blood drawing biter and the other a scared pretend biter.
It does say something for adopting an adult basenji, then you know what your getting. There is a history with the dog, were we had no clue how our dogs would turn out.
in the beginning of december.. Rocky bit my boyfriend.. and idk if you're dogs just nip but rocky literally ATTACKED his hands/arm.. it wasnt one bite.. it was multiple quick bites but they were hard.. and deep.. my boyfriend actually went to the ER that night. My boyfriends friend, who lives with us, took him, and I, of course, got left with the dog.. after some coaxing he came out from under the bed and let me bathe him.. (my boyfriend had dripped blood on him.. and the whole entire bed:mad: not fun to clean, as you could imagine:p ) he HATES baths.. and you'd think that after that he'd be really aggressive, but he was completely fine.. like he knew it was bad and that needed to be nice.. (or maybe he just likes me better:D ) but when dan got home, rocky was in his crate and i was in bed.. (it was almost 3am) and dan let rocky out & he was fine.. a little shakey towards dan at first, not knowing if he was going to retaliate.. (sp?) but after a few hours he was fine again.. nothing like that has happened since.. it took a good month for everything to heal.
i think sometimes they just get into bad moods and dont want to be bothered. They aren't as domesticated as most dogs, and perhaps thats why they need to be watched. They definately have an attitude.. maybe us, as owners, just need to decode it and try to beat it.. sadly none of us speak dog:p , or can tell what our pets are thinking.. hopefully it's something that changes in the breed as time goes on…:)
Barklessdog-I hope your wife is feeling better. & i hope that nothing like that ever happens to you two again! Just know, you're not alone.. and you're not the only ones to have a biter.. lol
after some coaxing he came out from under the bed and let me bathe him
The boy friend?
Just kidding, but a basenji that means business is pretty intimidating. I think anyone should be scared.
Unfortunately our dog has bitten and drawn blood from every family member including myself and even his breeder since he was a puppy. He just will not hesitate to bite, although after 7 years they becoming few and far between, but more because we have adjusted to not doing things that set him off. It's not like he just out of the blue attacks family members all the time.
There are warning signs & triggers to look for. We control the situation thus controlling the dog's behavior. It just means he has crate time (which he does willingly) if anyone comes over, when we eat, or when he needs a nap (they do get cranky)!
The problem became when he gets injured, or something unexpected happens.
I'm the only one who he will let deal with him in those situations, but even I have to act cautiously, not making any eye contact and approaching slowly towards the side of him so he does not feel trapped, and talk high pitched baby talk to calm him down.
Once while I was at work, he caught a squirrel. The squirrel bit him up. He has no clue how to kill something which is ironic with his attitude. He had bleeding bites on his paws and a huge rip on his nose. My wife intervened, the squirrel ran away, and the dog came inside and laid on our white family room carpet bleeding all over with his blood. If my wife even tried to approach him he went vicious. She could not get near him.
She called me, I came home from work and was able to slowly approach him as said above. He let me clean him up and I took him to the vet for his nose cut/bite. They just cleaned it up and sent him home (had all shots). He was fine once he calmed down even at the vet.
The really Ironic part is we all love the dog to death and could never part with him. He's part of our family and we just have to deal the the bad & ugly sometimes, but the good times far outweigh the incidents. My only fear is he bites a stranger or one of our kids friends and we have to put him down or we get sued. That's the reality of a biter, bottom line.
Yes we do everything to oviod it, but the unexpected does happen, that gets you off guard and you can never out run basenji OR GET THERE FAST ENOUGH.
Barkless-
I really feel for you. My first basenji had some temperment problems, but compared to your pup, I might have had it easy. (Okay, well, not "easy") But I think your tale also should warn us in dealing with a hurting or injured dog of any breed. Does everyone know how to make a quick muzzle if needed? I've had to do this with a dog that was hit (but no external damage) by a car and I took him to my vet. Take a long strip of fabric/tie/string and put the 1/2 mark on the top of the muzzle. Tie a shoelace knot under the muzzle and bing ends behind the ears. Tie snugly with a square knot. Then you can safely (or safer) move the dog. Even my vet was impressed with my makeshift muzzle that day.
As for dog bites: Watch them carefully. A local good samaritan was bitten over a month ago when he stopped to help a stray dog that had been hit by a car. The frightened animal bit him. The bite got infected and the infection spread throughout the man's body. As doctors tried save him, he had to have one arm amputated, one hand amputated, and both legs amputated. Then the poor guy died anyway. He apparently did have a somewhat lowered immune system because his spleen had been removed years ago after an accident. So keep a close eye on your dog bites and don't put off getting medical attention. If you are diabetic or have an immune system that is lowered for any reason….get medical treatment immediately.
Pat
Barkless-
I really feel for you. My first basenji had some temperment problems, but compared to your pup, I might have had it easy. (Okay, well, not "easy") But I think your tale also should warn us in dealing with a hurting or injured dog of any breed. Does everyone know how to make a quick muzzle if needed? I've had to do this with a dog that was hit (but no external damage) by a car and I took him to my vet. Take a long strip of fabric/tie/string and put the 1/2 mark on the top of the muzzle. Tie a shoelace knot under the muzzle and bing ends behind the ears. Tie snugly with a square knot. Then you can safely (or safer) move the dog. Even my vet was impressed with my makeshift muzzle that day.
What a great tip…. thanks for posting that... and yes an injured dog can really hurt someone...
Glad that all of us responsible breeders have been breeding for quite a few years and have so improved the temperament of our Basenjis... and kudos to those that continue to do so and DO NOT breed dogs with poor temperaments. I do disagree with Barkless on his opinion on Basenjis in general, however.... about adults and puppies. A good breeder knows the temperament of every pup in the litter... and should be able to tell any prospective person what that is... since your boys breeder already knew that he was of poor temperament and would bite, obviously that was a known factor. However of course given that every situation is different, no one knows how one will turn out especially if a family doesn't understand dogs or is not able/willing to continue to put the time need for socialization and training.
There are warning signs & triggers to look for. We control the situation thus controlling the dog's behavior. It just means he has crate time (which he does willingly) if anyone comes over, when we eat, or when he needs a nap (they do get cranky)!
The really Ironic part is we all love the dog to death and could never part with him. He's part of our family and we just have to deal the the bad & ugly sometimes, but the good times far outweigh the incidents. My only fear is he bites a stranger or one of our kids friends and we have to put him down or we get sued. That's the reality of a biter, bottom line.
Yes we do everything to oviod it, but the unexpected does happen, that gets you off guard and you can never out run basenji OR GET THERE FAST ENOUGH.
Yup, the key is KNOW YOUR DOG and be watchful, particularly in situations where you know s/he may be uncomfortable.
I think we're all with you in the loving the difficult dog!
I had a friend just yesterday tell me that she has no place in her life for a psychotic dog {she was referring to Keoki 
}. but I can't imagine being without him!!!
When I told my husband – who is really bugged by Keoki's quirks {the growling at feet, and if touched when sleeping, and resource guarding} what she'd said, he disagreed with her -- his response, "But he's a good boy!".
We ALL love our crazy dogs!
Yup, the key is KNOW YOUR DOG and be watchful, particularly in situations where you know s/he may be uncomfortable.
I think we're all with you in the loving the difficult dog!
I had a friend just yesterday tell me that she has no place in her life for a psychotic dog {she was referring to Keoki
When I told my husband – who is really bugged by Keoki's quirks {the growling at feet, and if touched when sleeping, and resource guarding} what she'd said, he disagreed with her -- his response, "But he's a good boy!".We ALL love our crazy dogs!
That's how we felt about our last dog, Cassie - the possessed lab. She was also psychotic and but in a carefully controlled environment - sunny calm weather, around adult family members, inside her own home - Cassie was a delightful dog! She couldn't be around other dogs, in the car, at the Vet's, near children, near strangers, and God forbid that there should be rain or a thunderstorm or fireworks, etc!! I know people, including family members, thought we should have her euthanized but we dealt with the situation (very carefully) for 10 years. She was so dangerous out of her environment that the Vet devised a routine that would ensure that no one was ever in the run with her when we had to board her. I had to put her in the pen and I had to go in and get her when we returned. I can't tell you how many times I muttered: "She really is a sweetheart at home." But…door to door solicitors did not argue when I said "No" and once a politician threw his brochures at me rather than approach the door any closer. 
I think two important points have been brought up - any injured animal will not necessarily react the way you might think. When they get hurt they fight back in whatever way is available.
And the emergency muzzle is a good thing to know how to do. When I was much younger our family dog (really my dog) got his leg caught and I was the only one who could touch him; putting a muzzle on was extremely important before we could even get him in the car to go to the vet.
the Emergency muzzle is a great idea. You just have to be able to get near the dog.
The real ironic thing about our biter is, the other side he is most gentle dog. He will gently take treats from your lips using his. He never snaps treats from you hand, a lot of the time he's a big baby bear that just wants to be rubbed. My teen daughter bosses him around and he listens, he's pretty obedient (or will do anything for food). He's really a very sweet dog. It's just some things set him off.
I might also add his mother was a biter. She snapped and a Judge in the ring and was banned from showing. Then some kid climbed in their fenced in back yard, cornered the dog, the dog bit the kid and they had to give her away.
the Emergency muzzle is a great idea. You just have to be able to get near the dog.
The real ironic thing about our biter is, the other side he is most gentle dog. He will gently take treats from your lips using his. He never snaps treats from you hand, a lot of the time he's a big baby bear that just wants to be rubbed. My teen daughter bosses him around and he listens, he's pretty obedient (or will do anything for food). He's really a very sweet dog. It's just some things set him off.
I might also add his mother was a biter. She snapped and a Judge in the ring and was banned from showing. Then some kid climbed in their fenced in back yard, cornered the dog, the dog bit the kid and they had to give her away.
And in that case she should have never been bred, that is not being very responsible to bred a dog clearly with a bad temperament?….
And in that case she should have never been bred, that is not being very responsible to bred a dog clearly with a bad temperament?….
Was she bred before or after the biting incident?
I do disagree with Barkless on his opinion on Basenjis in general, however…. about adults and puppies. A good breeder knows the temperament of every pup in the litter... and should be able to tell any prospective person what that is... since your boys breeder already knew that he was of poor temperament and would bite, obviously that was a known factor.
I meant to ask also – did I miss something? How do we know that the breeder already knew that Barkless' pup had a bad temperment?
And while I agree that a breeder is familiar with every puppy, there is no way, IMO, that the breeder can foresee everything that will come to pass w/a particular dog's temperment.
My niece once had a rottweiler that came from good stock and for the first couple of years was awesome. Then he decided not to like strangers. Period.
No idea what happened as he'd only had positive experiences. The only strangers he liked were disabled adults and children. It was odd.
You would have never guessed in Jazzy's first 1.5 yrs of life that she would snap at kids, but she does now. They just have to walk in the front door, and she bristles and growls; we have to watch her very closely -- not all kids, she has a few that she accepts like family, but there are others who have never done a thing to her, and any kid she doesn't know is instant enemy. And there have been one or two adults who have entered our home to growls. Why? Who knows? She's had a pretty darned cushy, friendly life with lots of socialization w/people of all shapes, sizes, colors....
No way at all the breeder could have gotten that from the mellow, tolerant pup he sold us. {She's STILL a very mellow, tolerant dog but some people for whatever reason just set her off}
i have a strong opinion that breeds that are know as "angry" or "vicious" aren't BRED to be mean, they are raised that way. If you starve, beat, or neglect a dog, of course they are going to be angry.
Rockys parents were sweet dogs, but he's attacked my boyfriend, and even me. He doesnt like to be pet either.. he growls when people touch him.. does that automatically mean that he is from bad parents? no, he has been through things in his previous home that we didnt know about when he was purchased.. you know what i mean?
Because a dog feels threatened and cornered by a stranger and bites is completely natural… at least in my opinion..
i mean, what would you do if you got cornered by someone you didnt know?
Barkless was the one that said that the breeder knew that the male was a biter… and honestly, even at 8 wks a breeder knows if there is a pup with a "bad" temperament.... I certainly did... which is why I never repeated the breeding or ever bred any of the offspring.
As far as Jazzy.. there would have been warning signs to her temperament change, IMO... others, like Andrea might have a better explanation then I do... and in every case there are just people/children that dogs don't like, period.. my brother-in-law is one... dogs just do not take to him at all.. even though he likes and has dogs...
The problem as described by Barkless is far different the what you have with Jazzy... IMO... it is a biter "out of no where"... no real trigger that humans can see (excluding being hurt/injured)... just a snap in temperament and the bite comes... and while I don't know that she was bred before the problems were known, I guess I was assuming that most dogs are shown early in life and if she bit a judge that would have been when she was young...
Barkless was the one that said that the breeder knew that the male was a biter… and honestly, even at 8 wks a breeder knows if there is a pup with a "bad" temperament.... I certainly did... which is why I never repeated the breeding or ever bred any of the offspring.
As far as Jazzy.. there would have been warning signs to her temperament change, IMO... others, like Andrea might have a better explanation then I do... and in every case there are just people/children that dogs don't like, period.. my brother-in-law is one... dogs just do not take to him at all.. even though he likes and has dogs...
The problem as described by Barkless is far different the what you have with Jazzy... IMO... it is a biter "out of no where"... no real trigger that humans can see (excluding being hurt/injured)... just a snap in temperament and the bite comes... and while I don't know that she was bred before the problems were known, I guess I was assuming that most dogs are shown early in life and if she bit a judge that would have been when she was young...
Okay – somehow/somewhere I missed that Barkless had said the breeder knew the pup was a biter.
Well….I remember Barkless saying he bit the breeder...but that doesn't necessarily mean it happened when he was still a baby puppy. Ivy bit her breeder only a couple years ago, at the age of 5. There was NO indication at the time Ivy came to live with us at eight weeks there was a problem. But her behavior issues showed up around 18 mos, or so. BUT...she is different than Barkless' boy because does have quite a few warning signs prior to biting; and she has really good bite inhibition...so when she feels compelled to bite, she will often just snap at the person (a warning) or when she does bite, she has always punctured with just one tooth, just one time. Never full mouth bites with multiple contacts. That is the sign of a dog with no bite inhibition at all. And it is much, much more dangerous than dogs like Ivy, or Jazzy.
I don't necessarily know if breeders can tell how good a puppy's bite inhibition will be prior to them going to their new homes...and I don't know if it is totally an inherited trait. I think everybody, breeders, and buyers can improve their puppy's bite inhibition with some training, and there are things that can make it worse to some extent.
I think some basenjis tend towards being crabby...and if you get a crabby one with no bite inhibition, you have trouble. So I think it is wise for everyone to assume that their adorable baby basenji puppy *might be capable of biting at some point, and try to work with them as babies to minimize that possibility.
I know of a great breeder, with super sweet dogs that had to put down a dog she bred last year because after five years he had become really aggressive towards his people....and when they brought him to her, he attacked people at her house. Nothing bad every happened to this dog, he was adorably sweet when he left her house, and the parents were perfectly mannered. Maybe something went wrong in his brain (his thyroid was fine), maybe there was something else wrong...we will never know...but it does happen.
How do we know that the breeder already knew that Barkless' pup had a bad temperament?
No I never said the breeder knew he was a biter-
No way!
We got him when he was really young, he was a little puppy, it was not until he was 6-8 months or older when he started biting, biting the breeder and it was only when trying to trim his nails, which we neglected to do everyday when we first got him as the breeder told us to do. That's when it started.
I would have to partly blame our inexperience as new basenji owners. We did a not of training & puppy classes with the breeder. Also The breeders are wonderful people and dedicated & loving basenji breeders. I would not say anything negitive EVER about them. Quite the opposite. They would do anything to help anyone.
You can only blame a dog so far. We have to accept blame as well. Also we never mistreated the dog in any way, more of the problem was the opposite. Not enough discipline when he was a puppy (not physical either-no hitting ever)!
As far as the mom goes, the judge incident happened before she bred (never bit him but tried to) the dog and the biting the kid incident happened a while after she had the puppies and the dog was cornered by the kid.
Also I might add, the puppies from the same litter did not have the same problem. She would have never breed the dog if it was a known bad temperament. She was a very responsible breeder.
