Okay, deep growling..when moving Tobias?

[JoeyQ]

This has been a good thread. I have learned some new things. Joey does the really growly stuff with my kids when they try to move him. He will stop eventually, but when I tell him to knock it off, he stops immediately. He never growls, I like to say grumbles, at me. In my case, I don't think Joey would nip. He thinks he is number 2 and that's why he gets away with it with the kids. They think it's funny. I am still trying to get the kids to establish their dominance with Joey, but I don't think that will happen except with one of the kids. We have had Joey for almost one year. Anyway even though I am truly a Level 1 basenji owner, maybe level 0, and level 1 dog owner for that matter, I think that it is a B characteristic.

[sharronhurlbut]

Have you taken your dog to a training class?
Brought the kids and let them work the dog with walking, sit, stay?
Might help everyone realize where they are in the family order.
How old are the kids and where did you get your basenji from?

[DuchesssMom]

My new b (7 months old) growls very threatenly like yours. Also like yours, I don't press the issue. I do try petting, soft talk, and then try again, but usually let it go for awhile and try again. Sometimes in a couple hours I can get him moved from my bed to the crate, and other times he spends the night in my my bed.
I haven't been bitten yet, but he has me convinced he would. We've only had him a few weeks, and hoping to over come it. My girl, Duchess, has NEVER growled in way with us.
You seem to be the only response on here that gets a convincing growling like I do. I have often read that some B's wake up grouchy, but this happens to me if he has just gotten comfortable not even asleep. So, I'm working on the problem hoping to over come it.

[Mantis]

Duchess,
if yours is 7months old you should establish dominance and the growling will stop.

I have found with my 7month old that the soft muzzle is great for him when his play is way over the top for everyone or a behavior that is just crazy.

I will typically keep the muzzle hidden by me on the couch around the time in the evening when the wild behavior comes. It is like the terrible 2s, close to bed time but is fighting it.

Just put it on and use the mom tone of voice to establish the behavior is not okay. No yelling needed. Just put it on and put the pup on the floor alone. When the sulking begins ask for a sit and dont take it off until he/she sits. Then establish eye contact and dont take the muzzle off until he/she looks away first.

Works great!

[Quercus]

@DuchesssMom:

My new b (7 months old) growls very threatenly like yours. Also like yours, I don't press the issue. I do try petting, soft talk, and then try again, but usually let it go for awhile and try again. Sometimes in a couple hours I can get him moved from my bed to the crate, and other times he spends the night in my my bed. I haven't been bitten yet, but he has me convinced he would. We've only had him a few weeks, and hoping to over come it. My girl, Duchess, has NEVER growled in way with us.
You seem to be the only response on here that gets a convincing growling like I do. I have often read that some B's wake up grouchy, but this happens to me if he has just gotten comfortable not even asleep. So, I'm working on the problem hoping to over come it.

Get some treats, train him to hop off the bed, train him to go into his crate. The first time you try it, you may have to lure him off the bed with a treat (bribe). But soon after you should give the behavior a cue (or command) like off, or floor. And then you should be able to give your cue, and then reward with the food. At this point, start having the food reward out of sight of the dog (in your pocket). You may have to use something super special, like turkey or cheese. After he is getting down (or crating) about 90% of the time with the food present, start to alternate the food reward with an enthusiastic "good boy", or something else that he likes.

In my house, this level of growling at humans would be completely unacceptable. If he growls at you in your bed like that, there is no way that he should be sleeping there. Everytime he gets to stay, it confirms in his mind that growling works.

[Quercus]

I read a great quote on one of my other message groups:

Positive doesn't mean permissive

[sharronhurlbut]

I think you need to get your basenji to a gentle obedience class.
It will help you 2 learn to read each others body movements.
I would also use a squirt bottle have it by the couch and when he growls, squirt him.
Pretty quickly, he will make the connection growling=water.

But the class will help you with lots more than this.

[Quercus]

<_Pretty quickly, he will make the connection growling=water.>>

A positive reinforcement training class would be a good idea. But sometimes a basic class won't address the issues of resource guarding.

I don't like to use squirt bottles for this type of behavior, because too often it teaches the dog not to growl, but doesn't change the *feeling the dog is having by being interupted in "his" spot. If you discourage the growl, a lot of dogs will go straight to a snap or bite. This is why you hear a lot of people say "he attacked without warning" …usually the warning growl has been "trained" out of the dog. So if you change the emotional response from "yuck, someone wants to move me"...to "yay, someone wants to move me" you've won the battle and the war._

[Mantis]

In my house, this level of growling at humans would be completely unacceptable. If he growls at you in your bed like that, there is no way that he should be sleeping there. Everytime he gets to stay, it confirms in his mind that growling works.

I completely agree.

The water bottle is great when it just sprays them from out of no where and the basenji just doesnt like it. Very effective to discract bad behavior and redirect with something else. I think in this case you may need to establish your territory - your bed or your furniture.

It is important to establish communication with your basenji at this point.

Basic training will teach you the skills which will give you confidence in your approach to your basenji.

Keep in mind this is a 20lb dog.

He wants to be in the bed because he wants to be part of your pack. I have never met a basenji that wants to be far from their owner. It is natural for them to challenge for the alpha position.

It is important that you learn how to assert your dominance as pack lead in the healthiest way possible and in a manner that can be consistant over time.

I always give my basenjis an opportunity to do what I ask first. If that doesnt work- I just move them to the command I was requesting. If that doesnt work I will soft muzzle or put them in the kennel and they dont come out until they are quiet.

You are the only contact your basenji has. You are their life. You create the environment they live in. Make sure what ever technique you find that it is something that is enjoyable because training is pretty routine in the life of having a pet. Training can be fun and I always have a happy basenji with loving time after we have to go through something challenging.

[DuchesssMom]

Thank you and the others for all the input. I must be dense. I didn't consider the 'alpha' root for the problem. I was thinking it must have been a result of some kind of treatment from the previous owner.
So thank you all again.
Anne, Duchess, and Ramses

[Quercus]

<_>

I just want to point out that *I don't think this is an "alpha" problem….this is a bad manners problem. He has found that growling works, so he uses it to get what he wants.

IMO, when you break every issue down to the dog trying to be in charge, it kind of creates an adversarial relationship. I like to think of it is the dog doesn't know the rules, and doesn't know how to cooperate, so you have to teach him.

Until the dog has polite bed manners, he wouldn't be sleeping in my bed. You can train the behavior at times that are NOT bed time...and then try it at bedtime.

Does he growl at you if you bump him in the night? That is what really gets to me...I hate that...it really disrupts everybody's sleep._

[Mantis]

Well you are all braver than me. I dont have anyone in bed but humans:D

[sharronhurlbut]

My friend Jean Skaggs says with resource guarding, the human should leave the room each time the negative behavior occurs.
But if the dog is sleeping, I am not sure that it will work.
I do know it works when one dog is guarding YOU from the other dogs, when your on the couch.

[Quercus]

@sharronhurlbut:

My friend Jean Skaggs says with resource guarding, the human should leave the room each time the negative behavior occurs.
But if the dog is sleeping, I am not sure that it will work.
I do know it works when one dog is guarding YOU from the other dogs, when your on the couch.

Yep, that is the best technique when you are the resource being guarded…dog quickly learns that the thing they want to keep is distanced when they act that way.

Guarding a sleeping spot is more difficult, unless you can pull the couch/bed out from underneath the dog. Even then...with some dogs that will turn into an escalation of MINE! and that can be dangerous. Much better to change the association of the request to move from negative to positive.

[sharronhurlbut]

Ok, so I am clear…cause this is important to learn, you think bribing the b to get down is the key? I am not being smart or bitch*, just want to know what your saying.

With other rescues, we had "throws" on the couch, so when a dog was showing bad manners and growling, the dog quickly found himself on the ground as the throw was moved out from underneath him.
Once he was on the ground, he had to be "invited" by me to get back up...
If I can learn something new, please, clarify a new way to get this dog down.

[lvoss]

Calling the dog off the couch or sleeping spot is not necessarily bribing. I often reward my dogs for good behavior and use treats as part of training but they are not "bribes", the treat is not shown nor offered until the dog has done the task asked. I do believe in rewarding good behavior since when dogs are rewarded for good behavior they are more likely to offer it in the future.

[Quercus]

I don't call it bribing…but some do. In the beginning you use a treat to lure the dog off the furniture while saying "off". Then you switch to using the command "off" without showing the treat, but rewarding with a treat as soon as the dog responds (actually I use a clicker to mark the behavior because it makes the training faster, then I treat). Then continue to reward the behavior most of the time until it is SOLID, really solid...then you can start to alternate rewards.

People who don't like positive reinforcement training call it (mistakenly) bribing the dog.

It certainly is effective to startle the dog to the ground, but if the dog is growling in fear it certainly won't fix the problem.

I have said before that with my own dogs, in which I know their bite thresholds, if I get a complaint about moving, I just move them...done. But if I felt like I was dealing with a dog that would escalate the confrontation to the point of biting, I certainly wouldn't want to make the situation any worse. At that point I would train the dog to get off the furniture on request, with their cooperation...not force.

[Quercus]

@lvoss:

Calling the dog off the couch or sleeping spot is not necessarily bribing. I often reward my dogs for good behavior and use treats as part of training but they are not "bribes", the treat is not shown nor offered until the dog has done the task asked. I do believe in rewarding good behavior since when dogs are rewarded for good behavior they are more likely to offer it in the future.

Right, once the dog understands what you want, you should not need to show the treat. And that should happen VERY quickly. At first, you might need to show the treat to get them down…but often you can just use a happy voice, or some other attraction to get their interest.

[Quercus]

<>
This isn't really a new way....it is really, really basic positive reinforcement techniques. Reward behavior you want to see more of, don't reward behaviors you don't want to see more of...keep behaviors you don't like from being able to occur, and train incompatible behaviors to those undesirable behaviors (i.e. sitting while greeting is incompatible with jumping while greeting)

[lvoss]

@Quercus:

Right, once the dog understands what you want, you should not need to show the treat. And that should happen VERY quickly. At first, you might need to show the treat to get them down…but often you can just use a happy voice, or some other attraction to get their interest.

I should clarify that I teach hand targeting to my dogs as one of the first things they learn after name response and then use that instead of luring but it is the same technique. I just really like the utility of being able to direct my dogs with a finger and it is very handy in agility when I need get them to me.