biting..again

[JENGOSMonkey]

@yodabasenji I think I posted this sometime ago. One of my favorite graphics explaining the evolution of a puppy...

[elbrant]

@jengosmonkey

[eeeefarm]

Little trick about the crate. Put something in there that he wants, food, toy, whatever, and lock him out of it so he can see it and not get at it. Wait until he is anxious to have it, then use the cue word you want to associate with going into the crate and unlatch the door.

[yodabasenji]

@zande
Thank you, will send it!

[yodabasenji]

@jengosmonkey
This really doesn't look too optimistic to me

[yodabasenji]

@eeeefarm
We've been doing this from the start, he has a favourite toy and chewing stuff in there and he can only use it inside of the crate and he isn't even trying to take it out anymore.
Yesterday he went all crazy after dinner and we sent him to crate and there he amused himself with the chewing and playing for 30 mins and then settled and fell asleep.
That's all good, right?

One more question about the handling drills. When he's chewing on something he's supposed to (toy, bully) and he's super focused on the chewing, is it ok to touch him or is that sending some wrong information?

Thanks!

[eeeefarm]

@yodabasenji said in biting..again:

When he's chewing on something he's supposed to (toy, bully) and he's super focused on the chewing, is it ok to touch him or is that sending some wrong information?

I think it depends. Have you done this and what has his reaction been? Because you have had biting issues I would be cautious about a possible resource guarding issue, but that may not be a trigger for him. If he is happily chewing away, I don't think I would interrupt unless I needed him for something, and then I would probably call him away. Basenjis can be testy about interruptions when they are indulging in something they enjoy. This is particularly a tricky thing when they are snoozing comfortably and don't want to be disturbed. Quite a few are snarky in that situation, and I prefer to finesse it. None of mine have resented being touched when they have a toy, but a couple have resented something tasty like a bone or rawhide being taken away. (I quit using rawhides partially for that reason, they got too possessive about them).

[Scagnetti]

@yodabasenji said in biting..again:

@eeeefarm
We've been doing this from the start, he has a favourite toy and chewing stuff in there and he can only use it inside of the crate and he isn't even trying to take it out anymore.
Yesterday he went all crazy after dinner and we sent him to crate and there he amused himself with the chewing and playing for 30 mins and then settled and fell asleep.
That's all good, right?

One more question about the handling drills. When he's chewing on something he's supposed to (toy, bully) and he's super focused on the chewing, is it ok to touch him or is that sending some wrong information?

Thanks!

Handling drills are done with food only, not toys or bully sticks.

Touch dog, give food reward. Repeat 100 times.

Also, you said he "went all crazy" and then you sent him where toys were. That's not a good idea, you're rewarding him for being "all crazy".

[yodabasenji]

@eeeefarm
He doesn't mind being touched while chewing, that's why I asked. But I'll leave him alone to chew it off

[yodabasenji]

@scagnetti
Ok, I think I understand now about the handling drills, thanks.

And our thought was, that if playing in the crate calms him down, that should be a good thing, but I guess we keep doing things wrong.

THIS IS SO HARD!!

[Scagnetti]

@yodabasenji said in biting..again:

@scagnetti
Ok, I think I understand now about the handling drills, thanks.

And our thought was, that if playing in the crate calms him down, that should be a good thing, but I guess we keep doing things wrong.

THIS IS SO HARD!!

In general, you don't want to reinforce bad behavior. I don't know what "went all crazy" means, but if it's undesirable behavior, behavior you don't want him to continue doing, then I would advise against giving him rewards (toy) when he is acting in that manner.

If you put him in the crate with no toys, then that could be fine, as long as he isn't spinning around, screaming, etc.

Honestly, it sounds to me like the dog needs more exercise and possibly small amounts of social isolation.

I don't know your dog, or you, or how you guys interact with each other, and trying to glean information off posts is a bit difficult, especially if I'm prescribing something, but all of the information I've given should help.

Also, I said this is one of the other posts, but you haven't had the dog for a long time and you guys probably don't have a strong relationship yet. Things get better with time (usually).

[JENGOSMonkey]

@yodabasenji said in biting..again:

@jengosmonkey
This really doesn't look too optimistic to me

This is just a phase during the journey you're taking together. I don't want to give you any specific advice because you're already getting awesome specific advice already. As others have mentioned in this and other similar threads... trying too many things at once is confusing to the dog.

I will say this... be consistent and committed. Good dogs are the result of dedicated owners/trainers. It takes time for all the reasons you probably already know: maturity, comprehension, consistency, etc. You'll get there together. Enjoy the journey. Celebrate the small victories.

[eeeefarm]

@scagnetti said in biting..again:

possibly small amounts of social isolation.

I think this is an important point. And it doesn't have to mean crate time. Being instantly available to your dog has some downsides to it. IMO, your attention should be rationed, as should food rewards and praise. Anything in great supply loses its value. Professional trainers know this, and many deliberately limit the dog's access to their attention, thereby making it more valuable and worth working to attain. If pleasing you gains your attention and affection, for many dogs it becomes an important goal. (and then there are the ones who just want you to leave them alone, so they are fine with it!)

[Scagnetti]

@eeeefarm said in biting..again:

@scagnetti said in biting..again:

possibly small amounts of social isolation.

I think this is an important point. And it doesn't have to mean crate time. Being instantly available to your dog has some downsides to it. IMO, your attention should be rationed, as should food rewards and praise. Anything in great supply loses its value. Professional trainers know this, and many deliberately limit the dog's access to their attention, thereby making it more valuable and worth working to attain. If pleasing you gains your attention and affection, for many dogs it becomes an important goal. (and then there are the ones who just want you to leave them alone, so they are fine with it!)

Well stated.

It must be said, that it's easy to over-do for a certain kind of person and easy to under-do for another. Finding the rate is difficult for a lot of pet dog owners, even some who already have a rate of social isolation time built into their dog's day (i.e. 9-5 job).

Ideally for me, my dog would sleep when he's alone, be up (and active) when he's with me, and go to sleep when I do. Teaching this (and so much else) is done with crate training, social isolation, attention rationing, and so many other tools.

A lot of pet dog owners don't have access to these tools on their own or can't understand it on their own or don't care to understand it period. Having a well-adjusted dog is underrated apparently. In the end, we all want dogs for different reasons, and there are many tools at our disposable that we can use to help shape our dog into what we want (and can live with).

[elbrant]

There is a great deal of focus on common commands, like "sit", "down", etc. And there is no doubt that you want your dog to obey without having to nag. However you teach your dog to behave, put the emphasis on:

1. safety (for the dog, your family, etc.), and
2. your lifestyle.

If this is the family dog, train the dog to be comfortable around the family (and visa versa). Do you need a dog that plays well with the children? Do you need your dog to understand how to behave in the woods so you can go hiking together? Every situation will need specific training and generalized training as well.

Consider what kind of behavior you expect from your dog, what kind of activities you need to prepare your dog for, and what type of training building blocks you should teach to achieve those goals.

A strong, reliable, "come" response is paramount for your dogs safety. Start there. Combine the command word, perhaps a hand gesture, and (my favorite) a natural -not store bought- whistle. Do all three together and your dog will learn to respond to any of the three individually. That's going to be your first building block

@scagnetti said in biting..again:

we can use to help shape our dog into what we want

This is such a valuable concept!

[yodabasenji]

@scagnetti
"all crazy" means those times when he starts biting everyone and everything and is not responding to anyting.
I was observing him this weekend and the biting starts from the moment he wakes up in the morning (or anytime during the day) and we put a hand inside the crate. Then he goes potty and the biting intensifies.
He settles and starts behaving nicely only around meals (so I guess he now understands what a "good" behaviour is) and as soon as he eats, he starts biting again.
The biting gets most ferocious, if we want him to do something he doesn't want to. For example, I knew he was tired after a walk today, because at the end he did a lot of breaks and didn't want to walk anymore. But when we got home, he didn't want to come inside and I pulled him in and then he bit me pretty hard quite a few times.

We go on walks 3 times per day and they last for around 1h. And usually we make him look for things (ball, food, us), try some recall or some trick so that the walks are interactive and there is a lot of running.
We also got a sniffing mat and he got frustrated because he couldn't find the food right away and he bit off part of the mat.
At least the handling drills seem to be going ok (I hope).

Just one more question, if we put him in the crate to calm down without toys and he starts screaming, what should we do?

Thanks again!

[yodabasenji]

@jengosmonkey
Thanks, hope we'll get there someday!

[yodabasenji]

@eeeefarm
We are aware that he is getting too much attention and we're trying to limit that but it's going very slow, small victories like JENGOSMonkey said.

[yodabasenji]

@scagnetti said in biting..again:

A lot of pet dog owners don't have access to these tools on their own or can't understand it on their own or don't care to understand it period. Having a well-adjusted dog is underrated apparently. In the end, we all want dogs for different reasons, and there are many tools at our disposable that we can use to help shape our dog into what we want (and can live with).

I really want a well adjusted dog, that's why I'm annoying all of you with millions of questions.
I want to at least try doing the right things before it's too late.

[eeeefarm]

@yodabasenji said in biting..again:

Just one more question, if we put him in the crate to calm down without toys and he starts screaming, what should we do?

Don't let him out while he is screaming. Do let him out immediately he stops.

At his age an hour active walk seems a bit long, especially three times a day.

Have you talked to his breeder about your problems? He seems unusually difficult and I wonder if this is also an issue with other pups in the litter? The fact that you got him at such a young age makes me wonder about the breeder. From what you are describing it sounds like this pup is hyperactive, and really focused on biting, and I wonder why....