biting..again

[yodabasenji]

@wildberry
OK, as long as it's normal, we'll try to survive it.
We've all started wearing shoes at home and ignoring him during these episodes, so fingers crossed!

[eeeefarm]

@yodabasenji said in biting..again:

I do understand that he can bite while playing if he gets over excited, but for instance, yesterday he was completely calm and went (by himself, she didn't force him of whatever) to my sister's lap for a cuddle and brought with him a chewing toy. And there he was chewing on the toy and my sister was petting him and everything seemed nice and calm for 5 mins and then suddenly he just turned and started biting.

Has anyone ever mentioned that Basenjis have cat-like traits?

Seriously, I think he isn't really clear on what the "rules" are. It is more difficult when multiple people are involved, because it is hard to be consistent and that can be confusing to a pup. You are correct when you mention that rewarding with food treats when he settles could be misinterpreted. You have to be careful not to be sending mixed signals, and there is even a training method called "chaining", where one action leads to the next and the reward comes after the second action. If biting becomes associated with getting treats, you have inadvertently reinforced the behaviour.

I am wondering how old you and your sister are? And whether you have any previous experience training dogs?

RE: restraint. I tend to use a "bear hug" with a small dog or pup, just put your arms around them, no tighter than necessary to maintain control. Be careful of where your face is if the pup should bite and try to control his head. If he does manage to bite your hand, do not let go! It sends the wrong message. Let him go as soon as he quits struggling. That is reward enough. You might verbally praise him for settling down, but I would skip the food reward, and if he starts up with the biting again, you repeat the restraint. He will figure it out.

It will be necessary to restrain your pup when at the vet, so it's good for him to get used to it. Also, there should be no places on his body that you cannot touch or handle. This is important for basic grooming and imperative if he is ever injured and you need to help him.

Exposure to other dogs should help with his manners, and as he is quite young at this point he will likely have "puppy immunity". Adults may put a pup in his place but they seldom get rough enough to injure him. That said, the owner of the other dog needs to monitor in case things get out of hand.

Good trainers are observant and learn to spot signs of trouble before it occurs. If you see him getting restless or showing signs of boredom or aggression, try to redirect his attention to something else. If play consistently leads to biting issues, then that type of play should be off the table for now.

He will likely grow out of the nippy stage fairly soon, and things will get better as you get to know each other and build trust.

Edited to add, if you haven't investigated clicker training, you might want to do that. It works well for teaching new behaviours, and is excellent to train your pup to go into his crate on command, to go to a place (such as a mat) when asked, and many more useful things. Lots of info on line. Karen Pryor is a good resource.

[elbrant]

@yodabasenji said in biting..again:

He is not supposed to be dominant, the breeder said that he was the quiet one in the litter

He might not have been dominant among his canine family, but now he is in his human home and he is the only pup. That makes him the boss. Which is why he is acting out and biting more than expected. He thinks he is teaching you how to behave, instead of the other way around.

There are small gestures that you can make to correct this delusion. One of the easiest lessons comes at feeding time. Eat first, it doesn't matter what, in front of your pup. Then set their food down for them. You want your dog to see that you are eating while they wait. It is the way "alpha" dogs behave in the wild. The boss eats and then lets the other dogs eat.

Establish your territory and your pup will begin to understand their rank in the family.

[yodabasenji]

@eeeefarm
We are a first time dog owner, so we have zero experience. I am 36 and my sister is 45 years old, so we kind of consider us to be responsible adults able to have a dog
The process of getting a puppy really took us more than 10 years, because we wanted to make sure, we will have the time, space, money to take care of him.
We did a lot of reading about different dogs so that we could choose the right one for us. I wanted a corgi for more than 20 years, but she wanted a basenji and after spending some time with a corgi, I too decided that maybe a basenji is a better choice for us, but I was really afraid from the start if we'll manage his personality. And things do seem a lot easier in therory, especially in YouTube videos!!!
I am a neurologist (with PhD in neuroscience) and my job is to overanalyze behaviours and now I'm doing that to my dog. Whenever I consider something not 'normal', I go and read the internet about it and watch hundreds of videos and get frustrated by so many different options and information. But the whole frustration stems from the fact that we have no experience in raising a dog and we probably complicate a lot more than needed.

I did try chaining method by luring him away with treat while biting and then get him into a sit or heel position and then reward him, but I didn't do it often enough I guess. Patience is not my or my sister's best quality, that I have to admit and we really need to work on that.
And he can't know the rules, because we probably don't know how to set them, that's why we can't wait for puppy school to start.

We are using the clicker training, but instead of clicker we use 'YES', because we knew from the start we'll keep loosing the clicker.

And also, I've never owned a cat either, so I don't know what to expect with that type of behaviour too

Thanks again for all the help!

[yodabasenji]

@elbrant
Will try with this feeding method too, thank you!!

[eeeefarm]

O.K. I think I am getting a clearer picture of the situation. You have been overthinking things and you are likely confusing your pup. You need to "pick a lane" and stick to it. Mixing up many training methods isn't a great idea. And IMO overuse of food is a mistake. A reward that is too readily available loses its value. elbrant has the right of it. Your pup needs to understand the order of things. Might be useful to consider "nothing in life is free" and establish that all good things come from you, and you set the rules and timing, for example, play is initiated by you, not him. Food or toys come from you at your discretion, not because he demands it. He has to work for things. Always ask for something before you reward, even the smallest thing that indicates you are running the show.

The thing about using a clicker is that the sound is consistent, and it is easier to be more precise. A marker word will work, but IMO it is easier and more understandable if you use a clicker. Understand that the clicker is for training new behaviour, and its use ends for that particular behaviour once it is on cue, so you don't need to constantly carry it around, just bring it out for training sessions that involve new learning.

Without observing, my take is that you may be overdoing the food rewards and setting up the expectation that you are basically a food dispenser. I would suggest that you have regular meal times and separate feeding from rewarding. Also, that you put the treats somewhere handy but not instantly available. Once the treat is paired with a clicker or your marker word, it doesn't have to instantly follow the behaviour and you can go get it when needed. I am not a fan of luring, although some have good success with it. I prefer to let the dog figure out what is required and "capture" the behaviour.

Once a behaviour is understood and on cue, change to intermittent rewards. Otherwise you end up with a dog that will only comply when food is available.

Oh, and about cats......they will often want to cuddle, purr away, then change their mind when they have had enough and offer to bite or scratch. Never trust a cat that seems to want a belly rub!

[eeeefarm]

I want to further clarify what I wrote above. Restraint would not be my first choice in the situation. I would use it only when ceasing play/ignoring is not working and the pup insists on continuing to bite. At this point it is time to insist that the biting stop.

Another thought on the subject. You might want to use a specific word for when playtime or other activity ends. For sheepdog people it is "that'll do", which means the dog should cease herding activities. It's important to be clear about what you want and what you don't want, so "no" should be part of the vocabulary and it always means "don't do that". In regards to rough play and biting, once whatever method you have employed works and he quits it, I would ask for another behaviour, e.g. sit or kennel or down, and then reward that, either with praise or a treat, so that your reward is associated with something clearly not the biting behaviour you are trying to suppress.

The most important thing, to me, is to earn the dog's respect and become a "leader" rather than a "sibling". It's your house, you are the boss, your rules apply, and all good things come from you, so it is in the dog's best interest to please you.

[Zande]

@yodabasenji said in biting..again:

Wakanda Legend Amazing Grace

Thank you for the parents - But which is Yoda ! (he is in the on-line pedigree database so you can explore through his family. AND send me a photo ???)

Wakanda Legend Dark Moon
Wakanda Legend Deep Purple
Wakanda Legend Desert Rose
Wakanda Legend Dream Catcher
Wakanda Legend DrumNBasse

[Scagnetti]

@yodabasenji said in biting..again:

@scagnetti
Thank you for your suggestions!
We are trying to build value in ourselves by hand feeding him from day 1. He doesn't have a food bowl, everything comes from our hand and that is the only time he's really not biting. And during feeding, we usually try to make things fun by teaching him tricks. What else can we do?

We are crate training him, but he goes to crate only when he's tired (he does this on his own on occasion), because otherwise he cries and jumps and he can't calm down. And as I've already mentioned, he peed in his crate during one of these episodes, so we're afraid to do it again, but we'll start working on that more.

We need to start doing are the handling drills. We thought that if he comes to us for a cuddle, that it should be enough, but I guess we need to reward him more every time he's calm.

Thanks!

Hand-feeding is great, but that alone doesn't build value. When I say make yourself valuable, what I mean is doing something interactive with the dog, something where the dog is focused and excited about doing something with you specifically, instead of on an object (toy, food). A session of engagement training looks like this: your dog looks at you, you run away and let him chase you, when he reaches you, give him food rewards, repeat.

Also, instead of focusing on tricks, I would be doing handling drills with his meals.

If he cries and jumps in the crate and only goes in when he wants, then he isn't crate trained. If he peed, then you might be going too fast too soon. Go slowly (meaning don't ask for too much initially (have low criteria for rewarding)), make the crate appealing, do it often for short periods, again, working at his pace. You might be training crate skills for 6 months (hopefully not though).

As for the handling drills, they are incredibly important, especially with sensitive dogs, which Basenjis (generally) are. And handling drills are just as important with other breeds as well, especially if you want to do things with them and make them do things. If he comes to you to cuddle, then he's only going to be fine with you touching him when he wants it. But if he doesn't, which is probably going to be in the daytime, then he'll probably bite. This is also a must for vet visits, grooming, etc.

[yodabasenji]

@eeeefarm
Overthinking and confusing seems the most probable problem here. Maybe we'll relax slowly when we start understanding each other and things will be easier.

THANK YOU for all of your advice, it's been very useful. We really need to make a simpler and clearer plans, set some rules and stick to them and most importantly not expect to change anything overnight.

[yodabasenji]

@zande
Yoda is Wakanda Legend Deep Purple.
And this is him at 7 weeks vs. today at 11 weeks

[yodabasenji]

@scagnetti
As I've already written above to eeeefarm, we will try to take things slowly and start expecting less or at least be reasonable with our expectations.
See, it's the little things that we miss, like him going to crate when he wants it, we were just happy that he goes in there willingly when he's tired.
We've started focusing on handling drills and will be doing just that this week, without mixing 1000 of things at a time.

I can't say thank you enough, you guys are really great!

[Zande]

@yodabasenji He's gorgeous ! Do send me a photo - to my email address sallypwallis@gmail.com and I will include it in the database so the world can see him !!! (and you can explore his family!)
Database link is in my signature block.

[Scagnetti]

@yodabasenji

Glad to hear it. Hope it all works out.

All the best.

[tanza]

@yodabasenji - Correct it will not change overnight... it is like human children... you need to keep the same up... and change comes slowly, period...

[JENGOSMonkey]

@yodabasenji I think I posted this sometime ago. One of my favorite graphics explaining the evolution of a puppy...

[elbrant]

@jengosmonkey

[eeeefarm]

Little trick about the crate. Put something in there that he wants, food, toy, whatever, and lock him out of it so he can see it and not get at it. Wait until he is anxious to have it, then use the cue word you want to associate with going into the crate and unlatch the door.

[yodabasenji]

@zande
Thank you, will send it!

[yodabasenji]

@jengosmonkey
This really doesn't look too optimistic to me