@isabob said in (Vengeful?) Pottying On The Couch!:
but then you say they don't do things for spite
Oh yes they do !!!! That is why you make a song and dance, scream and cry when they do something unimportant, like throwing cushions on the floor.
When they want to punish you, they will have learned what makes you really upset - and they will throw cushions on the floor.
On the other hand, they chew your only pair of spectacles with very expensive frames and you scarcely react. They know there is no point in eating the replacement pair, it doesn't upset you !
@daureen said in (Vengeful?) Pottying On The Couch!:
he doesn't mind being in his crate for 3 hours at a time, but he draws the line at being there 3 times for 30 min
Isn't there some way for you to take him with you run a short errand or two?
My arrangement with doodle: If I'm going to the store, doodle gets her walk first and stays home. If I'm being a taxi (pick up or drop off), she comes with me. And if I have a lot of places where I just run in for one thing, she can wait in the car for me. Weather permitting. She never waits in the car during extreme (hot or cold) days. This way she isn't always left behind.
At one point I set up a camera to find out what doodle was up to while I was gone. My spy feed showed me that once I left, doodle jumps up onto my bed and goes to sleep. When I slide the key in the lock to open the door, she makes a mad dash to greet me. 
this girl!!!
She has me very well trained!
@zande said in (Vengeful?) Pottying On The Couch!:
@isabob said in (Vengeful?) Pottying On The Couch!:
but then you say they don't do things for spite
Oh yes they do !!!! That is why you make a song and dance, scream and cry when they do something unimportant, like throwing cushions on the floor.
When they want to punish you, they will have learned what makes you really upset - and they will throw cushions on the floor.
You seem to have recovered well from your surgery. Congrats!
If we can't agree that Basenjis can be "spiteful" then perhaps we can agree that they can engage in "pointed messaging" which can involve behaviors known to "get their owner's attention". LOL
Never thought of your solution. It's brilliant. Not sure I could pull it off but it is brilliant.
We had Cinny for about six months before she stopped going on the furniture (which we had put waterproof covers on). It was maddening, but we just rolled with it and figured it was an adjustment for her as well as for us. I did a lot of laundry during that time. She was either really excited or scared - or both. She also let loose on the floor when I'd come home from shopping. But evntually she stopped doing it. They really do want to please their people, and it was important for me to remember that!
@donc ok, maybe spiteful is the wrong word. But they do have a sense of right and wrong and what is fair.
And sometimes Mom does deserve to be punished. I just give them a way to do it which satisfies their sense of fair play but doesn't do damage !
Thank you, yes, both eyes have healed well and work well together for things at a distance. Anything closer than about 5 feet is blurry. Makes driving a pleasure but using my phone, reading, eating, cooking, working on the computer etc, all require different strength reading glasses. In 3 weeks I can go and have them tested for prescription glasses to correct the astigmatism.
And hopefully help me to see close up.
I can't take Prince with me as he gets really upset when in the car -- terrible pooping all over. I have used his crate, and this does not help. If I hold him when someone else drives, he just about tears me apart with his tromping and stomping. I have used "thunder shirts' and anti anxiety OTC pills with no relief. The odor is terrible worse than normal "poop". The vet does not want to give him meds for cars; "Zande" how do you allow your pups to "punish Mom"?
@daureen First of all, have you tried Rescue Remedy ? It is a herbal which I get from human health food stores. Comes with a dropper in the lid and a dropper full into the side of the mouth about 30 minutes before travelling in the car can work wonders. They don't care for it, some kind of sharp content ? but over the years I have had the occasional Basenji who didn't care for the car (they ALWAYS rode in big crates !) and I've found it works wonders.
I spaced the whole pack out on it on Bonfire Night each year (5th November here) and no-one ever minded the bangs !
Mine usually go the shredded newspaper route when I have been particularly mean and deserve punishment. The daily papers tend to get put onto the kitchen table and if there is a bit hanging over they can reach, it gets pulled down to the floor and demolished. But not often, I am a fairly acceptable Mom and don't need punishing very much !
Now I am with only two - Kito is far too small (10.5 weeks or so) and Mku far too tolerant of both me AND the puppy !
Thanks a lot
@hizbaby if you figure this out, please do tell. My pup, 10 weeks, does this and I am certain it is vengeful. It started with crate training. When we'd put her in the crate she'd throw a fit. If we left her be, she would eventually get super hysterical and then just poop in the crate.
My wife would then make me take her out to clean the crate. I wondered if she started to learn that pooping resulted in getting her out of the crate - therefore - pooping = attention and time away from crate. So we got a pen and left the door to the crate open, this resulted in her moving her poop from the crate to the pen when angry we didn't let her out.
Now, she's having trouble with the biting feet thing and we've been working through this. One of the solutions we've read, is the that you give her a time out. Well, we've also read that you shouldn't put a B in a crate as a form of punishment, because they will associate bad times with the crate and hate it more. So to have a "time out" place, I took all the possibly dangerous things out of the half bath we have downstairs and started using it as the time out place.
This is today. Three times I asked her to stop nipping at people's feet. Three times she ignored me. So I picked her up, put her in the half bath and closed the door. She's throw a fit and I'd let her out when she calmed down. On the fourth time, I opened the door and low and behold poop in the corner. I let her out, cleaned it up, and put her back for another time out.
Thankfully, this time she seems to be behaving. But there is no doubt in my mind now, that she does this when she's displeased.
@ntasd - She has no idea why she is being locked in a room? Biting feet is what she would do with her littermates and remember now your scent replaces her littermates, so you need to yelp loud and I do mean loud... and turn you back to her with a firm no... each and every time she does that and replace with a toy/chewy that she can have...asking her to stop will not cut it.... Are you putting her in the crate when you are there? If so, she wants to be with you... Are you feeding her in her crate? Is she sleeping in her crate? And is that crate in your bedroom? They want to be with you. Have you talked to her breeder?
Hi @tanza, thanks for the reply. I shortened want I did to "asked her to stop." We yelp, turn our heads away from her and then firmly say no every time. She does not stop. Most of the literature that we've read suggest that if she doesn't curtail her biting after 3 or 4 times of this full process, you give her a time out. So that's what played out. The only piece of your suggestion we're not doing is the chew toy, because she doesn't have any interest in them. Every time we try to distract her with a chew toy, she drops and goes right back to biting feet.
We only crate her at night. Because she has separation anxiety, we've started putting her in her play pen outside for 5 mins at a time and our plan is to increase the time out there over time.
We are feeding her in her create. We get into her play pen with her and play so that she associates the pen with good times. We've bought a stuffed toy that has a heart beat sound and pulse in order to give her the comfort of other pups/her mom in the crate.
She is sleeping in her crate. The crate issue is starting to work itself out. It's been a while since she's done eliminated in her crate.
I was sharing with hizbaby, that the behavior she described seems to mirror what my little lady is doing. She eliminates when she's upset.
@ntasd said in (Vengeful?) Pottying On The Couch!:
We yelp, turn our heads away from her and then firmly say no every time.
Perhaps addressing the issue before it happens?
Your pup is teething, the same way a human baby would teeth. Everything that can go into the mouth does. So, let's focus on relieving the pain... take a washcloth (not the good ones!), soak it, then wring it out. Leave it twisted up like a rope and toss it into the freezer. When your pup nips you, say "no", then offer the frozen washcloth and say "here, bite this".
If you need to make the washcloth more attractive, you can smear peanut butter on it, or soak it with chicken broth. There are ways to make it a better treat. Your choice, but the primary goal is to be able to praise your pup for choosing to chew on the "right thing". Which is obviously not your ankles!
IMO a "time out" isn't the way to address this. If she bites feet and doesn't stop when you yelp (Yea, squeaky toy!) then physically prevent her from continuing the biting. She's a pup, not a 100 lb dog, just bear hug her until she quits, then immediately let her go and praise. Rinse, repeat (if she does). No crates when you are available to supervise. Spend time with her, teach her what is "legal", what is not. Sounds like perhaps this pup was removed from Mom and siblings a bit early since she is not responding to your cues. She needs to learn what actions are off limits, as her mother would teach her.
@ntasd said in (Vengeful?) Pottying On The Couch!:
We get into her play pen with her and play so that she associates the pen with good times.
She should also associate the crate with something other than punishment, poor little girl. You do seem to have got off on the wrong foot with her. Try to gain her confidence, play with her around the house, not just in the playpen. She is part of your family now. She shouldn't feel the need to behave like she does.
I don't know if I'm typing in another language or if I've just upset the collective forum. We NEVER punish her in her play pen ever. She have never been put in time out in her play pen. That pen is being used for: 1) the place where her crate is at night so that we can leave the crate open as that seems to make her more comfortable; 2) a place where we play and enjoy each other together in addition to our playtime outside the pen; 3) a place we are using to help build up her ability to be away from us slowly. We're currently doing 5 minute intervals.
All that we do is play with her around the house. In every room downstairs. Heck she even goes into the bathroom with the girls when they go. Obviously we work, so there are times she's not being played with, but for those times she's mostly in her bed (a separate bed in the same room as us, not the crate.) I take her on 3, 20 minute walks every day, (I have to limit those to just side walks because she hasn't gotten her third set of vaccines yet). When I said we play in the play pen, it was because we play so much with her outside of the pen, that I worried she would see the pen as a boring ho hum place where she ends the night and therefore would start to resist going into the pen.
We may not be a perfect B household, this is our first one, but we care very much for her and we're trying are absolute best to build a warm, loving, and trusting home for her. That will happen over time and we'll be patient. More patient than this forum.
@ntasd - Is she in her play pen when you and the family are home? If so, she wants to be with the rest of the family..... and with 2 of the shots she should be fine on walks, just don't let her "sniff" other poop... and at night, she needs to be sleeping in the bedroom in a crate or in the bed, not stuck in a room by herself... they need to be with their people. This is not meant to be mean, just what I have found in 30+ years of having/raising Basenjis
@tanza as mentioned before, during the day she is not in the play pen. She is always in the same room as one of us (free, unencumbered, off leash, totally free) and allowed to do as she pleases. The only time she is in her pen alone during the day is when we're doing separation exercises. That is, I put the pen outside and I set her in there for 5 mins then bring her back in. I do that two or three times a day. So total of 15 mins in her pen by herself during the day for those.
At night, I sleep on the couch while she sleeps in her crate. It is my hope that we can train her to sleep downstairs. I may fail miserably at it, but I want to try. Right now, she's sleeping without issue until 4 AM, where she wakes up and wakes me up. I take her out she goes potty and then I put her back in the pen. She will usually then make a fuss for about 10 mins and go back into her crate to sleep. She's up again at 6:30 and then it's out to potty and a 20 min walk before breakfast. My goal is to be able to slip upstairs once she's asleep and then come down to let her out when she needs it. I know this will take a lot of time - I've been sleeping on the couch since we got her. However, I know that nothing in life is easy and good things are earned. So like anything else, I'll either earn it or decide the juice isn't worth the squeeze.
Basenji's want to be with their people, but both of your training techniques are to force her to be away from you.
@ntasd said in (Vengeful?) Pottying On The Couch!:
, I put the pen outside and I set her in there for 5 mins then bring her back in.
This might work if everyone leaves the house, gets in the car, drives away for 5-10 minutes and then comes home. But to put your dog outside and refuse to let them back in until the timer rings... I cannot see that teaching your dog how to deal with separation.
@ntasd said in (Vengeful?) Pottying On The Couch!:
I sleep on the couch while she sleeps in her crate
For the same reason, you should move the crate into your bedroom. Dogs protect their families as instinctively as they breath. If you get up and leave when you "think" the dog is asleep, what's the pup supposed to think when they wake up in the middle of the night and see you are gone?
IMHO, these training methods will only result in an insecure and anxious pup. Please reconsider your training techniques.
@elbrant said in (Vengeful?) Pottying On The Couch!:
Basenji's want to be with their people, but both of your training techniques are to force her to be away from you.
- I believe there has to be a balance. We're going to have her for nearly two decades, there will be times that she will need to be alone. I'm trying to build a foundation so that she can cope with those times. I took this technique from several puppy training books. I know that Bs are different. By Friday I should finally have, Mrs. Kenworhty's book and hopefully there will be new insights I can use there. But for us the answer can't be, "just let her be with you 100% of the time."@ntasd said in (Vengeful?) Pottying On The Couch!:
, I put the pen outside and I set her in there for 5 mins then bring her back in.
This might work if everyone leaves the house, gets in the car, drives away for 5-10 minutes and then comes home. But to put your dog outside and refuse to let them back in until the timer rings... I cannot see that teaching your dog how to deal with separation.
@ntasd said in (Vengeful?) Pottying On The Couch!:
I sleep on the couch while she sleeps in her crate
For the same reason, you should move the crate into your bedroom. Dogs protect their families as instinctively as they breath. If you get up and leave when you "think" the dog is asleep, what's the pup supposed to think when they wake up in the middle of the night and see you are gone?
- I have been testing this out. He crate is in the living room. Once she's asleep, I go the family room and work. She's gotten up a couple times and makes a little noise, then goes back to sleep. So far, I haven't noticed a major reaction to her waking up without me there. Like I said, "I'm trying." If I notice that it is unproductive, I'll go to plan B.
IMHO, these training methods will only result in an insecure and anxious pup. Please reconsider your training techniques.
- Happy to reconsider. Any suggestions for how to help her with separation issues?
@ntasd said in (Vengeful?) Pottying On The Couch!:
the answer can't be, "just let her be with you 100% of the time."
Not 100% of the time, but when you are home, let the dog get used to being "on it's own". At your dog's current age, toileting is not going to be "spot on". Clearly you will need to address taking the dog out in an attempt to avoid accidents. Other than that your dog should be given an opportunity to "explore" her home without being in a crate or pen. Using baby gates might be a good option to keep the dog in one room. Ideally, you want the dog to be in the same room you are in, even if your attention is not fully on her. This shouldn't be a problem if the room has been "puppy-proofed". She will learn what is "ok" and "not ok" over time. But she won't learn if she is confined to "x" amount of square feet in a pen.
@ntasd said in (Vengeful?) Pottying On The Couch!:
Any suggestions for how to help her with separation issues?
Place her in her crate, tell her you will be "right back", and leave. At first, go to the corner and back, then gradually increase the time you are gone. But you have to actually be gone. Dogs can hear incredibly well. So, if your dog is in the crate and you are fixing a cup of tea, the dog won't understand why it's in the crate.
This is something that has to be modeled on your own life. What expectations do you have about your dogs behavior? Watch your dog for cues, they have a way of training you, too.
