dreaming of a Basenji girl... (ILM)

[elbrant]

@tanza I almost want to "agree to disagree" on temperament. I'm not sure that DNA is an excuse for bad behavior - it's too close to the "born a criminal" argument for me to be comfortable with it. I will suggest this though... perhaps in a focused effort to eliminate temperament issues, breeders chose sires and dams who were kinder, gentler, and better socialized. And, as a result, the litters from those pairings were handled more frequently and earlier, and the parents were better equipped (socially) to teach their pups how to fit into a modern household better. Those factors alone would strongly influence changes in the littermates attitude and that of their future offspring. Also, lest I forget... weren't those early litters often parented by dogs that were brought over from the wilds of Africa? Certainly, those particular dogs would not have been handled, stacked, or otherwise trained for the showring and would have found those situations to be "unnerving" at best - thus passing their fear and intimidation along to their litters? (If "Mom's" afriad, I should be too, right?)
I will have to continue considering the DNA vs Learned Behavior debate as I gain more knowledge to guage it with. For now, I will agree that it has been influenced by breeding, but not neccessarily genetics...

[tanza]

@elbrant - Breeding is Genetics? And of course proper socialization is necessary as much as breeding for good temperaments. Poor temperaments come from poor breeding... and my comment about early Basenjis and poor temperaments were Basenji born in the 60's/70's... but of course they come down from the original Basenjis that were imported to England in the 40's.

[elbrant]

@tanza yes, breeding is genetics... isn't it? I mean, you are selecting sires and dams based on which attributes you want to carry on to the litter. Perhaps the last paring didn't have enough of a wrinkled brow... so you look for a different sire that has more pronounced wrinkles. Or one of the dams you were breeding started throwing Fanconi, so you remove her from your breeding stock. Or, there was a problem with hip displasia (or anything else). Aren't you then, breeding to manipulate the genetic makeup of your litters so they can be the best of the best.
Granted, you aren't working on the cellular level in a biolab. But aren't you still working with genetics through breeding? Or, am I overthinking this?

[tanza]

@elbrant - Not overthinking it.... just need to include temperament as part of the genetics. If you have litter that the temperament come out "sharp"... and a breeder can see that as early as 3 to 4 wks... you would not want repeat that breeding.
By the way, wrinkles come from the ear set, ears need to be set high of the head to get pronounced wrinkles. Of course it is easier to see in Red/White then in Tri or Black/White. Here is a link you should read https://www.basenji.org/BasenjiU/Judge/Study/Illustrated-Standard-2012.pdf

[elbrant]

@tanza Thank you Tanza, I enjoyed reading that.

[eaglzwngs]

We may need to rehome our sweet Sophie as she just can’t be trusted with the cats and kids. She’s not aggressive, but the prey instinct can be a little scary. She seems to prefer women and would fair better in a home with a single person with no children or cats. Does ok with our other dog.

[senjisilly]

@eaglzwngs Where are you located?

[giza1]

Anyone needing to rehome a Basenji should consider relinquishing said Basenji to a legitimate Basenji rescue. Depending where you are, Colorado Basenji Rescue (CBR) is in CO, Camp Basenji is in FL, and Basenji Rescue And Transport (BRAT) is nation wide.
-Joanne

[eeeefarm]

@tanza said in dreaming of a Basenji girl... (ILM):

@elbrant - I disagree about temperament... 50 years ago Basenjis had horrible temperaments to the extent that judges in the ring were afraid to touch them (still today some of them are still around). Breeders made it top of the list to breed good temperaments... Of course early socialization and continued socialization if a very strong factor, but DNA for temperament is in fact true.

I've heard this before on this board, but it certainly hasn't been my experience. I got my first Basenji way back in the late sixties, and she had the best temperament of any I've owned. If you read about Veronica Tudor Williams and the making of the movie, "Goodbye My Lady", it's interesting to note that at its premier in England (in the 1950's) two of her dogs made a personal appearance and acquitted themselves very well with all the fuss and crowds. Pretty much all of the Basenjis I met when looking for my second one in 1975 were friendly with both people and dogs, and I visited breeders as well as going to dog shows. My second Basenji was wonderful with people and male dogs, not so much the females! I could trust her with my young nieces even when they treated her badly. My show girl that I got nine years later wasn't as reliable, and was dog aggressive, although good with people. Anecdotal evidence, to be sure, but it seems to me that logically village dogs with bad temperaments would have ended up in the soup pot!

Breeding for "friendly" can have very interesting results, e.g. the Russian friendly fox experiment.

" "in only a few generations, the friendly foxes were showing changes in coat colour," says Hare.

The process seems to be ongoing. "At the more advanced steps of selection, changes in the parameters of the skeletal system began to arise," Trut wrote. "They included shortened legs, tail, snout, upper jaw, and widened skull."undefined

Which suggests breeding for one trait, in this case temperament, can result in physical changes. So perhaps breeding for "show ring pretty" could be causing unforeseen temperament changes? My prettiest Basenjis have had the most difficult temperaments, for what it's worth. The ones that look more like the early African imports have had the best. Food for thought?

[tanza]

@eeeefarm - Responsible breeders breed for all positive traits, health, temperment, conformation.......

[eeeefarm]

I'm not doubting that at all, but I just don't see what you obviously have seen in regards to the early Basenjis having poor temperaments. Interestingly I recently read an article about someone importing a village Basenji from South Sudan, and "soft temperament and willing to please" was one of the things mentioned. Genetics can certainly play a big part. The old "nature or nurture" argument. I had three foals from the same mare, different sires, and all raised the same by me. Three totally different individuals! My concern is that breeding for one trait may have unintended consequences on another, and breeders do tend to want the lines that are winning.

[tanza]

@eeeefarm Talk to any old timers in the breed and they will tell you the same... Basenjis were known to have very sharp temperaments

[CrazySenji]

@eeeefarm said in dreaming of a Basenji girl... (ILM):

I'm not doubting that at all, but I just don't see what you obviously have seen in regards to the early Basenjis having poor temperaments. Interestingly I recently read an article about someone importing a village Basenji from South Sudan, and "soft temperament and willing to please" was one of the things mentioned. Genetics can certainly play a big part. The old "nature or nurture" argument. I had three foals from the same mare, different sires, and all raised the same by me. Three totally different individuals! My concern is that breeding for one trait may have unintended consequences on another, and breeders do tend to want the lines that are winning.

A dog with a bad temperament isn't going to do much winning. Snap at a judge? Bye bye! Best case the dog is excused for the day. They need to be comfortable with many different people touching them and as I vet tech I can firmly state that most people's pets are NOT comfortable being handled/touched the way a well trained and socialized show dog is. It's true that while working to enhance one trait you can add something undesirable to your lines but temperament should always ALWAYS be high on the list for any responsible breeder's program.

Also, I know a lot of breeders.. they don't always want or like what is currently winning. A lot of the top dogs (in any breed) are only top dogs because they have the $$$ to back them. Not that they're bad dogs and don't deserve to win, but the more a judge sees a dog the more they think it to be correct.

[eeeefarm]

@crazysenji said in dreaming of a Basenji girl... (ILM)

A dog with a bad temperament isn't going to do much winning. Snap at a judge? Bye bye! Best case the dog is excused for the day. They need to be comfortable with many different people touching them and as I vet tech I can firmly state that most people's pets are NOT comfortable being handled/touched the way a well trained and socialized show dog is.

Precisely! If the handler knows what he or she is doing, it will be a non issue. I have always handled my own dogs at the vet's, and even the ones that were not comfortable with strangers behaved themselves. My show girl behaved in the ring when the judge examined her for the same reason. Behaving is a function of training, not temperament.

I do think Basenjis often get a bad rap because they will stand on their dignity and resent familiarity from people they don't know.......it used to be termed "aloofness".....but usually don't resort to physical aggression, more likely a snark and walk away. My Mom took my first Basenji to a Humane Society tag day, and when she received unwanted attention she just turned her head away from the person. If that person was persistent, she yodelled! Got a lot of laughs that way.

[elbrant]

@eaglzwngs That's so sweet of you! Thank you! I did find a dog, or should I say...
I reached an agreement with a breeder this past Tuesday. I thought that I should delay my announcement until the "pup" was officially in my home... and do a more formal introducation then (with pictures, name, etc., at the end of the month). Nonetheless, I am very excited! If anything should go 'kafluey", I will definately reach out about Sweet Sophie. Thank you again!

[CrazySenji]

@elbrant said in dreaming of a Basenji girl... (ILM):

@eaglzwngs That's so sweet of you! Thank you! I did find a dog, or should I say...
I reached an agreement with a breeder this past Tuesday. I thought that I should delay my announcement until the "pup" was officially in my home... and do a more formal introducation then (with pictures, name, etc., at the end of the month). Nonetheless, I am very excited! If anything should go 'kafluey", I will definately reach out about Sweet Sophie. Thank you again!

Congratulations!

[elbrant]

@eeeefarm LOL "into the soup pot"! Missed this earlier... but you do make valid points.

[khanis]

@tanza <-- is completely correct! My mom got her first Basenji in 1965 and started showing and had her first litter in 1969 when I was just a year old. The Basenjis today are not the same. I have scras from Basenjis in my childhood, and we had pretty darned good-tempered Basenjis. But,t hey are nothing like today. Breeders began culling dogs with questionable temperaments.. even if their health was good. What does it matter if they are healthy if they can't be touched/handled extensively?!
Culling those dogs from breeding programs left only the best tempered dogs moving forward... which was of the utmost importance for the future of the breed.

[DebraDownSouth]

Hi and welcome back. Health issues are most of why my current basenji will be the last. My daughter has a Samoyed and wants another when Cara is gone. I can't blame her...incredible breed.

Contact Camp Basenji. Pam Hamilton doesn't have any puppies, but she does have some young adults. She does not list most of the dogs, btw. People get fixed on a dog that may be totally wrong for them, and then not be open to any other better fits. I was a BRAT foster/transporter/home and puppy evaluator at the time, lol, and I didn't get to pick my puppy.
http://www.campbasenji.org

[tanza]

@khanis - What Khanis said!... and before anyone dives off the deep end, "culling" mean remove as breeding stock... not as in "put to sleep".... Just saying... sometimes people mistake the work culling and what it means to a breeder