Are the wider collars okay to use with a puller?
I'm still working with trying to get mine to stop pulling when we're out walking - the gentle leader helps - but I can't use that when we go to training class.
Electric Collar
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I had meant to respond to this before, but I got distracted.
There is a difference between "calm" and protectively submissive. Give me credit for being able to recognize the difference.And that is of course the point… I don't give anyone who uses shock collar credit for perceptions. Which I guess leaves us nothing to discuss.
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And that is of course the point… I don't give anyone who uses shock collar credit for perceptions. Which I guess leaves us nothing to discuss.
Seriously?
O.K. I have a question for you. Have you observed a dog shutting down when a clicker trainer has failed to notice there is a problem? (inexperienced trainers will tell you to get better treats, or starve the dog before the session, instead of recognizing that the dog is confused, because they see but they don't observe). There is quite a bit of difference between calm and protectively submissive. Body language should tell you all you need to know. e.g. calm dogs are alert and interested. Submissive dogs, not so much.
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when all else fails for recall try this http://drsophiayin.com/search/eyJyZXN1bHRfcGFnZSI6InNlYXJjaCIsImtleXdvcmRzIjoicmVjYWxsIn0
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@Buddys:
when all else fails for recall try this http://drsophiayin.com/search/eyJyZXN1bHRfcGFnZSI6InNlYXJjaCIsImtleXdvcmRzIjoicmVjYWxsIn0
I read some of the information at the link. She has some interesting solutions, but I question the practicality. Apart from anything else, if you are not physically fit, running away from the dog may not be doable. Using a long rope at a dog park can be problematic. Feeding other peoples' dogs (unless you have permission) is straying into questionable legal territory. (I have noticed that most of these demonstrations are done with dog breeds that are known to be biddable!)
When I was a teenager….....many moons ago.......I trained quite a few dogs for people. Breeds included Shetland Sheepdog, Golden Retriever, King Charles Cavalier Spaniel, Greyhound, Boxer, German Shepherd crossbred, quite a few mixed breeds, and a couple of hounds. The only ones I had difficulties with getting a reliable recall were the hounds! BTW, food rewards were never used, and electronic collars were not available. I did use a long line when appropriate, and an enclosed area until I had reasonable reliability. I could down stay three or four dogs in a line and recall them by name one at a time. Praise was the only reward I ever used. Corrections were mostly verbal but could include physical punishment.....a shake or a slap.....for blatant disobedience. I trained "old school", which everyone did at the time. I ended up with dogs I could walk off leash almost anywhere, with the exception of the hounds. I restricted their off leash time to areas that were fairly secure.
When I got my very first Basenji, I trained her the same way I had trained all of the others. She was the most reliable Basenji off leash that I have ever had. But that was in the '60s, and I don't train that way anymore. Coincidentally, or not, I haven't had another Basenji that could match her.
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I read some of her responses, but what sticks with me is… wth? If you don't have a solid recall, keep your dog home and work on it til you do. Then have a LOT of distractions. Then go to bigger areas, then more distractions. Training a recall at a dog park ... why?
Shirley, lol, train a chow to come. I remember about 20 yrs ago I was on some breed's club page and they had these articles on flip finish, competitive obedience and agility. I go to the Chow club page... "How to teach your dog to come." Bahahahaha. Yep. I had great recall on none of mine. Decent, but far from great. And I worked hard at it.
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I read some of the information at the link. She has some interesting solutions, but I question the practicality. Apart from anything else, if you are not physically fit, running away from the dog may not be doable. Using a long rope at a dog park can be problematic. Feeding other peoples' dogs (unless you have permission) is straying into questionable legal territory. (I have noticed that most of these demonstrations are done with dog breeds that are known to be biddable!)
When I was a teenager….....many moons ago.......I trained quite a few dogs for people. Breeds included Shetland Sheepdog, Golden Retriever, King Charles Cavalier Spaniel, Greyhound, Boxer, German Shepherd crossbred, quite a few mixed breeds, and a couple of hounds. The only ones I had difficulties with getting a reliable recall were the hounds! BTW, food rewards were never used, and electronic collars were not available. I did use a long line when appropriate, and an enclosed area until I had reasonable reliability. I could down stay three or four dogs in a line and recall them by name one at a time. Praise was the only reward I ever used. Corrections were mostly verbal but could include physical punishment.....a shake or a slap.....for blatant disobedience. I trained "old school", which everyone did at the time. I ended up with dogs I could walk off leash almost anywhere, with the exception of the hounds. I restricted their off leash time to areas that were fairly secure.
When I got my very first Basenji, I trained her the same way I had trained all of the others. She was the most reliable Basenji off leash that I have ever had. But that was in the '60s, and I don't train that way anymore. Coincidentally, or not, I haven't had another Basenji that could match her.
well, the results of Dr Sofia Yin expertise does not have guarantees for the best results, either real or implied, by experience or not, whether one is physically fit or not . the offered information was just that, offered, just as your reply was. there are many ways of using positive reinforcement etc, conditioned responses etc, etc, etc….just offering info that someone may or may not have already heard of or tried. really..........and Debra, why not start out with distractions? ever really try it? one may work hard at something, but if the results are not seen, then the handler needs to improve or try something else, maybe understanding what motivates the dog? so maybe 20 years ago you were not as adept at understanding canine or Basenji
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In an emergency, I have found the most effective thing to do when you really, really need to get hold of your dog and he is playing "keep away", is to lie down on the ground. Invariably the dog will come to see what is up with you, and it's usually possible to get hold of him. Bear in mind that with a smart dog this will only work once, and of course it is useless with a dog that is heading for the far horizon in pursuit of something!
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@Buddys:
and Debra, why not start out with distractions? ever really try it? one may work hard at something, but if the results are not seen, then the handler needs to improve or try something else, maybe understanding what motivates the dog? so maybe 20 years ago you were not as adept at understanding canine or Basenji
The first question puzzles me because it is really not logical. That is like saying why not teach someone to play a concerto before you teach them to read music. All learning… ALL LEARNING... is best done building on basics. You get success at a solid recall, without distractions, so the dog absolutely understands and builds repetitious responses to the command. That helps to continue that response in other situations, including other locations and with distractions.
As for the 2nd.. sorry, but I think you misunderstood. The 20 yrs ago.. hasn't changed. The number of chows doing agility or obedience at higher levels is minimal. It isn't about MY ability but about the breed. I know many trainers who have a chow but get another breed to do obedience with. I am not doubting that if someone took a great deal of time, they could teach the chow to perform, but the uphill battle doesn't make it much fun. This popular meme isn't for no reason (hope it shows up).
That people who have owned multiple breeds and successfully trained solid recalls with others, but have similar issues with hounds and chows is a pretty good indication of it not being stupid owners but rather some breed characteristics. But I had not one, but 2 professional trainers try to help with one chow on recall. She bested them too. So I learned to go get her if she didn't come and such was life.
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Chows sound a lot like Basenjis.
Or cats.There is a reason high level obedience features mostly the same breeds taking the honours. Biddable dogs just need you to explain what you want. Many other breeds want to know what's in it for them!
Agree about distractions. Same story with horses. You want them solid on the basics before you start throwing challenges at them. If you work hard enough on habituation, it is a lot stronger than any physical means you can devise…....and you don't stop 1000 lbs of "I don't want to" with pain. Just flips them over from stubborn to scared, and a scared horse isn't listening and is very dangerous to itself and anyone around. Dogs the same, but they are smaller. (I am not contradicting myself here. Referencing the topic of the thread, it's proof to me that low level e-collar stimulation does not qualify as pain, since it does not cause panic and fear. High level applied briefly in an emergency interrupts unwanted behaviour, but it must be momentary only or it will backfire and result in a fear rather than a startle reaction, and probably blind panic and flight.)
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If it works for eee then that's fine IMO. I can appreciate the point of the dog having some more freedom, but still being under control and I would use it if I were sure it would be effective. I'm sure the dog appreciates a little extra freedom too. I live in the country so prefer the longest flexi leash when there are no people around. It gives her the freedom to run 60' in radius and provides some more exercise and room for exploration. If a dog was nipping at strangers whether with an e collar or flexi lead then it would be a problem, but that is not the case here if used correctly. People need to be able to think for themselves, use common sense, and use their own discretion. Personally I wouldn't trust an e collar because there are too many animals where I live and my dog has helped me to track wounded deer so she will go after them without my rebuke, but to each their own. Evidently they can be used effectively. I just wouldn't want to chance mine getting hit by a car at some point and don't want to go through training processes such as classes etc. Everyone must reach an equilibrium with their own dog for god's sake.
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Oh yes, there is something to sell all right. It is the idea that they shouldn't be used. People who are against choice often design studies to back up their point of view. I would like the freedom to make up my own mind about issues, and if I am on the opposite side of something I don't want to be forced to accept that it is their way or the highway. Too many controversial subjects come to mind where the "tyranny of the majority" decides, and too bad if you hold the minority viewpoint. Prove to me that I am abusing my dog…....prove it by his behaviour or whatever scientific controlled study method you wish.......but use the criteria that I employ, not those designed to have a negative result. Most of the studies I have looked at, including those you link to, are just poorly designed, bad science.
Yes, a Basenji can, I have done it. My first girl was as solid as could be. I walked her off leash in the city, I had her follow me down country roads while I rode my horse. in hindsight, perhaps I trusted her more than I should have, but she never let me down. That said, my others have been variable in their reliability. And as I get older I am more of a "belt & suspenders" kinda gal. As far as the e-collar not being 100%, show me something that is. In my experience as of this writing, it is for me, but never say never. A leash can break (or be chewed through!) and isn't a sure thing either. So what?
Ah, something we can agree with! I enjoy discussions. I enjoy them less when they get heated and personal and everyone goes away mad.
The more we see you write about e-collars on this chat board, the more it appears that to us that you are attempting to use this forum to sell the e-collar concept and use of them to others. Since this keeps surfacing what it says to us is that you clearly have a hidden agenda . So how do we put the E-collar thing to bed once and for all?
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The more we see you write about e-collars on this chat board, the more it appears that to us that you are attempting to use this forum to sell the e-collar concept and use of them to others. Since this keeps surfacing what it says to us is that you clearly have a hidden agenda . So how do we put the E-collar thing to bed once and for all?
First of all, I didn't start this thread. I replied to a question posed by someone else. Secondly, if you want to "put the E-collar thing to bed once and for all", why would you resurrect a thread that has been inactive since September?
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Don't think that eeeefarm is trying to sell e-collars.. but as I have stated before… I do not agree that this is ever a way to train any dog... Basenjis included
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First of all, I didn't start this thread. I replied to a question posed by someone else. Secondly, if you want to "put the E-collar thing to bed once and for all", why would you resurrect a thread that has been inactive since September?
It really does not matter who started this thread or when, that was not the point or intention of our statements was it? Our question was not directed at that either! It was a good try at deflection on your part, but how about we attempt to stick to the subject of question that we asked!
Off topic: By the way in these 6 pages of posts alone you have 22 out of the 54 posts as we count them.
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Not to put anything to rest (why would we?), but it seems every online discussion I have followed about e-collars (here and elsewhere) follows a fixed script:
- people who are against describe e-collars as cruel, no matter the particular application or dog;
- people who use them can argue all they want, but they are viewed as lazy at best, dumb and mean at worst.
It's a pity.
And as to eeeefarm: I really don't see how she is selling something here; she is describing her own experiences, assesses some of the research that has been done, and answers questions. Why it would matter how many posts that takes, is beyond me.
