Aggression toward small dogs

[Kipawa]

It's great when we can figure out what is triggering our dogs to do something we don't want them to do. Grace, obviously you know now that your basenji is very protective of the yard. I have to agree with Pat (Tanza). From what I understand about the electric fences, it won't keep other dogs out of your yard. If you are legally allowed, and can affort to fencing your front yard, I would think that would be the best solution.

Have you thought of a few classes with your basenji and just some smaller dogs? In that type of controlled situation there would be a lot of watchful eyes, and perhaps you or a trainer could pick up some visual clues as to what might be setting off your basenji. Is it just their size, being fluffy, or….?

[tanza]

The comments about children (or adults for that matter) wandering onto your property is a valid one… and regardless if your property, if they are bit, you are going to be cited.... And while you would think that the Poodle's owner was 100% responsible... that is often not the case....

There have been a couple of people on the forums that used invisable fences... with no very good results.... in many cases.

[lvoss]

You may also have inadvertently taught her aggression towards these small dogs because of the invisible fence. If every time a small dog approaches your property line she rushes out toward them and in her excitement ignores the warning that she is too close and gets zapped or even if it only ever happened once, she may have learned that small dogs cause her pain and has transferred her aggression onto them.

[eeeefarm]

@lvoss:

You may also have inadvertently taught her aggression towards these small dogs because of the invisible fence. If every time a small dog approaches your property line she rushes out toward them and in her excitement ignores the warning that she is too close and gets zapped or even if it only ever happened once, she may have learned that small dogs cause her pain and has transferred her aggression onto them.

Personally I find this scenario unlikely, if the dog has been properly trained with the fence. I've had quite a bit of experience with different species of animals (horses, dogs, cattle, goats, sheep, etc.) and electric barriers. An animal that has been properly introduced has no confusion whatsoever about the source of the discomfort, or the fact that the option of getting zapped is entirely up to him/her. Some will learn to "pay the price" if it is worth it to them to go through the fence, others will never challenge it. But that is another subject. Confusion about the cause only happens with an animal that hasn't been previously exposed and truly doesn't know what "bit" him.

That said, you may still see the kind of "fence fighting" aggression that occurs with physical fences, where dogs run up and down wanting to get at an animal on the other side. Typically, the dog inside an invisible fence will stay out of range of the "zap" zone, unless it opts to run through it. When that decision is made, usually the approach is straight on and very quick!

[dcmclcm4]

Was the other dog loose? Many communities have laws about dogs running loose and the owner could be fined. I would investigate the dog laws in your city.

I would never have an invisible fence with a Basenji as our first rescue was one who would go past it and get shocked to chase things and that is why she was turned into rescue. In training classes, she would want to go after small fluffy dogs. She had a high prey drive.

Also if the poodle was white, small, and fluffy, a Basenji could get it confused with prey. Was the dog running in your yard? My Arnie was confused at a dog park when he first saw one. I had him on leash at the time and he looked at the dog and then looked at me. I told him that was a puppy-a poochie and he understood once I took him up to the dog and it barked. I rarely took him to the small dog area of the dog park since Bs can play too rough.

Jennifer

[Patty]

I totally agree about the electric fence. It will not always keep a Basenji in if it has a strong prey drive. I'm not sure what sort of a fence you mean though - ours for stock are at chest height and small animals can go through without feeling a shock. I assume the one you're talking about is under the ground/ does it have its own power supply? If you are allowed to put up a normal fence I think it would be better so that the problem doesn't reoccur. Also small dog training would seem to be appropriate. As has been said small dogs are sometimes regarded as prey by Basenjis especially fluffy ones.

[DebraDownSouth]

It sounds like you have many neighbors who allow their dogs to run loose – you like the visiting big ones, your dog hates the little ones. What happens when a big on that hates little ones kills YOUR dog? I am sorry, but imho the only valid use for an invisible fence it INSIDE a real fence to enforce the no climbing digging needs. Laws almost always look at "reasonable care" and if a person gets bit, you are sued and your dog likely destroyed if your poodle-owning neighbor chimes in about past history. Please invest in a real fence, a large kennel, or take your dog out with a leash and supervised only.

[eeeefarm]

Best electric fence, bar none, is "predator" fence, but you wouldn't be allowed to put it up in the city. Basically you run alternate hot and ground wires. Nothing gets through without getting zapped, so it is a great deterrent to coyotes, etc. It's high voltage but low current, so won't do permanent damage, but you wouldn't want to repeat the experience, which is why it works. Physical electric fences aren't allowed in most built up areas, only on farms, and supposedly not for line fences unless your neighbour agrees. (around here that is also supposed to be the rule with barbed wire, but not everyone respects their neighbour enough to ask permission). I agree with Debra that because of its limitations, the best use of invisible fence is as a back up to a physical fence if you have a climber or a digger.

Back in the day when I lived in a quiet area, I used to tie my Basenji out on a chain, until my lawyer brother in law informed me that if a trespasser tormented her and was bitten, I could be sued and my dog put down. Funny world we live in! After that I left her on the sun deck. Safer for her, and she still got to enjoy basking in the sun on nice days…..

[Grace]

Thanks for the replies! Our B has been great with the Dogwatch invisible fence. However, We have taken a proactive stance and changed the boundaries so her curb access is diminished. The neighbors dog was on a leash but unfortunately lurched 4' into our yard out of the hands of the elder walker. :(. Tyllie (our went to puppy socialization class 2 sessions but she was never keen there either. She liked some and not others. I love this forum and again- very thankful for your help and suggestions. Tyllie loves people and she is a funny and loving B. B's are certainly peculiar and I have loved being entertained by her. Thanks again.

[eeeefarm]

In my opinion, if she is to be out unsupervised at any time, you are taking a chance on her safety, even with the boundaries "diminished". As stated, invisible fence does not prevent trespassers from encroaching on her space. At a minimum I think some sort of physical boundary to prevent this is in order unless you will be with her whenever she is outside.

[DebraDownSouth]

Sometimes eeeefarm, you just cannot get the message through.

[dcmclcm4]

I think she also could be territorial-protecting her space. I know dogs that are chained often develop this but I am not familiar with dogs using an invisible fence developing this problem.

Jennifer

[Patty M]

@Grace:

Thanks for the replies! Our B has been great with the Dogwatch invisible fence. However, We have taken a proactive stance and changed the boundaries so her curb access is diminished. The neighbors dog was on a leash but unfortunately lurched 4' into our yard out of the hands of the elder walker. :(. Tyllie (our went to puppy socialization class 2 sessions but she was never keen there either. She liked some and not others. I love this forum and again- very thankful for your help and suggestions. Tyllie loves people and she is a funny and loving B. B's are certainly peculiar and I have loved being entertained by her. Thanks again.

Grace, welcome to the forum! The good thing about this forum is you can take the good advice and ignore the barbs….

My family used the invisible fence with our first basenji, and she definitely outsmarted us. Lucy would listen for the beep-beep-beep cautionary signal, and lay in the yard until it stopped. When it stopped, she knew that she could run around in the neighborhood! We were very fortunate that we lived on a sleepy country road. When the collar battery was good, if there was something outside of the barrier that she wanted, like a little squirrel, she would run through the invisible barrier, yelp, and continue on her way. We were certainly lucky that she wasn't hit, and she didn't see little dogs as vermin. However, one of my basenjis now, Lola, will get snarky with her "sister", Becca, and while it sounds vicious, it doesn't escalate to a raging level.

Have you had your girl her entire life? So if she's 2 and 1/2, she's still a pup at heart. What is your reaction when she gets aggressive? Does she snark first or give any other warning signs (like hackles along the spine, or showing teeth)? Do you have time to get her disengaged?

When she's outside in the yard, I know the collar does the trick (normally), but perhaps during the day, another thought would be to keep a leash on her when she's running around (assuming there isn't any safety concerns with letting the leash be loose)... my thought is that if a little dog runs into the yard, you can step on the leash to get control of your girl.

If you have 2 1/2 years of experience with her, you know here pretty well. If we can help, let us know.

[DebraDownSouth]

Well Patty, your advice seems to ignore that she isn't OUT THERE WITH THE DOG to step on a leash. I am glad that even though your dog continually got out, she didn't get killed but sorry after a couple of times your family continued to risk her life with it. Now you can feel free to ignore that barb.

[Buddys Pal]

Reply to having to make your dog's area smaller with your fence. Bullpoopoo!!! That other owner is totally responsible for her dog and if not under control via verbal off leash commands, then that poodle should have been on leash and therefore off your property. What was that other owner thinking? No much and not too clearly for sure!!!!!!!!!! Most cities/counties have leash laws….. besides, small dogs put the B's prey drive in gear....!

[tanza]

@Buddys:

Reply to having to make your dog's area smaller with your fence. Bullpoopoo!!! That other owner is totally responsible for her dog and if not under control via verbal off leash commands, then that poodle should have been on leash and therefore off your property. What was that other owner thinking? No much and not too clearly for sure!!!!!!!!!! Most cities/counties have leash laws….. besides, small dogs put the B's prey drive in gear....!

The poster stated that the Poodle "was" on a leash, but bolted onto her property 4' (most leashes are 5 to 6' or maybe it was a flexi)…

And this was not a real fence, but a boundry controled by a shock collar on the Basenji. If I was the Basenji, I would have gone after anything that came into my space, especially when there are area's I can't defend without getting shocked.

[eeeefarm]

What is interesting is that this Basenji apparently welcomes larger dogs that enter her yard to play, so it isn't a straightforward case of defending property. Either she is smarter than the average bear (Basenji) or she has definite preferences and just doesn't like smaller or perhaps same sex dogs. My girl Tamu wanted to kill anything on four legs, never mind the size. I'd say that was brave, but pretty stupid on her part. If not for me, she would have cheerfully taken on a Saint Bernard! (and paid the price, I am sure).

Owners with dogs on leash need to have control of their animals, else the leash is nothing other than a way to be "legal". Once upon a long time ago, before the advent of leash laws, the law in my neck of the woods was the dog must be under the control of the owner. Much better, IMO, then just stipulating on a leash!

[BobLamb]

I am also surprised withe this kind of behaviors.If they have to be trained,I don;t think they seems to be harm any one.They are such hammy creature.

[CanisBasenjius]

@eeeefarm:

Personally I find this scenario unlikely, if the dog has been properly trained with the fence. I've had quite a bit of experience with different species of animals (horses, dogs, cattle, goats, sheep, etc.) and electric barriers. An animal that has been properly introduced has no confusion whatsoever about the source of the discomfort, or the fact that the option of getting zapped is entirely up to him/her.

Late to the party, as usual…

Unfortunately, Lisa's scenario is repeated far too often with dogs. We have seen it a number of times. The fact is, that even the most well timed positive punisher has one thing not within the handler's control: what is most salient to the dog at the time. Even if the training is consistent and well timed, if -in that moment- the thing that was most in the dog's mind was the other dog, they could most certainly associate the shock with the other dog.

If OP's dog has had pleasant experiences with big dogs, but only unpleasant with small dogs (I get to play with big dogs, little dogs only pass by/cause me to get shocked) it is certainly plausible (but guessing on our part and it could just as easily be that she just doesn't like small dogs). Also, though perhaps irrelevant, Dr.Jim Ha stated in one of his DVDs* that Toy Poodles have in tests proven to be less able to readily recognize social signals in other dogs, thereby making them sort of doggie cretins (my word, not his). So while the behavior is uncool, several factors could certainly play in, including the invisible fence. And then there of course is your key phrase, "if the dog has been properly trained with the fence". Many are poorly trained with the fence and, IME, many are willing to run through it given a good enough reason. Just one more reason I dislike them.

Gotta say, I agree with everyone else that has said, "Get a physical fence." If you had one, OP, this would never have happened.

*"Behavioral Genetics" IIRC

[eeeefarm]

@CanisBasenjius:

And then there of course is your key phrase, "if the dog has been properly trained with the fence". Many are poorly trained with the fence and, IME, many are willing to run through it given a good enough reason. Just one more reason I dislike them.

Gotta say, I agree with everyone else that has said, "Get a physical fence." If you had one, OP, this would never have happened.

That is indeed the key phrase, and I should have emphasized it more. Of course, if a small dog teased at the fence when the confined dog was still in training, you bet an association could result! And I would agree some dogs certainly do learn to run through invisible fence. I have a friend with one of those. Two of her three (non Basenjis) never do it, one will with sufficient provocation. She knows she will get zapped, but she just runs fast and takes the punishment to get at those darn coyotes!

To the original point, I don't have a handy dog example, but my friend's stallions have not learned to dislike mares in heat because they get zapped trying to get at them. They know it is the fence and they know they are going to get a jolt, but a mare flashing right by the fence is sometimes just too much temptation! They don't go through the fence, however. Gallagher has a way of changing your mind.

However, they have no issues breeding the same mares when the fence is not in the way, and show no difference in attitude toward them and other mares that have not been close to the fence, so I would say there is no confusion there in terms of the cause of the shock. Of course, horses may be smarter than the average dog…..

In the city, I think an actual physical fence is pretty much a necessity. In the country, depending on circumstances, maybe not so much.