Puppy neutering!
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Gee, thanks so much for the links! :)
Here is one that supplies links to a lot of articles on the subject:
Don't think there are any by Cesar Milan, but I haven't checked yet.
Whether or not one has a PHD, one can "adjust" the interpretations of data to suit one's argument. We are quite aware of that fact. Short of pulling up the original studies and analyzing the content, the easiest way to determine the validity is to have a look at all sides of the argument from varying points of view, and use what you find to guide you. From strictly the health perspective, not neutering at all would seem to be the best course of action for males, but that isn't a route most can take these days. (most of the literature out there seems to rely on the same study data, and as far as I can determine there are no large clinical studies in this area…...which is the only way to control for extraneous contributing factors).
We'll be having a busy day here. Cheers! :)
You are so welcome!
Oh, is Cesar Milan the ultimate authority in your view?
If the paragraph above is to be accepted, then why bother with any study of any test.? As I believe you have said in past post, you might as well throw the baby out with the bathwater. If the scientific method of research is to be ignored, man has certainly wasted a lot of time and money attempting understand and find cures for diseases. We might as well go back to the days when people were bled and leeches were used in an attempt to cure what ails us. Maybe that is the solution, just throw out all the scientific research, history books, flip a coin, go with our gut feeling, and pray we made the right decision.
Don't get us wrong, there is nothing wrong with a good debate, but as in any good debate, its only as good as the facts presented. If debates come down to who can yell the loudest whether the facts hold true or not, then we are bigger trouble than we think.
We will be having a busy day here ourselves, but like you, we will be checking in periodically. In fact sometimes we are signed on and we are not even here. LOL
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You are so welcome!
Oh, is Cesar Milan the ultimate authority in your view?
He came up at the top of the list in your first link, so I assumed he was important to you. ;)
If the paragraph above is to be accepted, then why bother with any study of any test.? As I believe you have said in past post, you might as well throw the baby out with the bathwater. If the scientific method of research is to be ignored, man has certainly wasted a lot of time and money attempting understand and find cures for diseases. We might as well go back to the days when people were bled and leeches were used in an attempt to cure what ails us. Maybe that is the solution, just throw out all the scientific research, history books, flip a coin, go with our gut feeling, and pray we made the right decision.
Wow, don't remember saying any of that. I have simply been playing "devil's advocate" in this, since there is some controversy over a) neutering, and b) the best time to neuter if you choose to do so. The studies that have been done are not recent, granted. The interpretation of the results by different parties is interesting, and I note even the neutering proponents are admitting there are some downsides to the practice. And the differences would be more significant for some breeds than for others. (oh, BTW, leeches are making a comeback. They are great for cleaning up necrotic tissue and are used in mainstream medicine for that purpose these days)
I have no dog in this hunt, I just find the subject interesting. All of my Basenjis have been neutered, none of them early…....some quite late. (no choice if you are going to show). But we learn more from the studies that have been done. Here is another of interest. Not concerned so much with health as with temperament. Some extremely interesting results, although the study is admittedly flawed since it relies on reporting from dog owners. As is oft quoted on "House", everybody lies!
http://www.cdoca.org/downloads/files/Early%20SN%20and%20Behavior.pdf
Don't get us wrong, there is nothing wrong with a good debate, but as in any good debate, its only as good as the facts presented. If debates come down to who can yell the loudest whether the facts hold true or not, then we are bigger trouble than we think.
Words to live by. We think so, anyhow…..
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Oh wow, I didn't think my question would open up such a debate.
In my family, we have always had our dogs spayed or neutered between the ages of 6 month to a year. I never noticed an actual change in character. Since it has always been suggested by vets or breeders, I always thought it was safe for them.
I still think, in my case, I will have him spayed. But now I am more worried!! haha
I have been reading most of the articles posted here and am wondering why no vets are aware of this…
Have any of you observed any negative effects on your Bs once they were neutered? Or any other noticeable changes? -
@Ana:
Have any of you observed any negative effects on your Bs once they were neutered? Or any other noticeable changes?
No, I haven't. And I am most definitely not anti neutering. I think it makes sense for most people. A cost/benefit analysis of the study data would be interesting, and I suspect there would not be a huge benefit to leaving a dog intact, although obviously if you are one of the unlucky ones that the statistics are reporting on, it would make all the difference to you personally.
Sorry our debate has become a thread hijack. Some of us just enjoy discussions. I think it is always useful to listen to multiple points of view.
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In my own experience, vets are usually focused on keeping the population under control. Rarely do I hear from them the potential negatives of spay/neutering, only the positives. I even left one vet because I was so tired of being told to get my dog spayed when they knew I was not going to do that at the time. The vet I go to now has a more open perspective. I personally would want to wait at least to 1 year (or later), particularly for performance events. Nothing wrong with doing it at 6 months, Imo. The best we can do is reduce risk of health problems, we can't guarantee one way or the other. Do what's right for your own situation.
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Sorry our debate has become a thread hijack. Some of us just enjoy discussions. I think it is always useful to listen to multiple points of view.
It's ok! I am actually quite interested to read about this. (even if it worries me a little haha)
One thing I do want to know is if males stop marking their territory after being neutered. I've mostly had females, so I am a little confused about male behaviour sometimes!
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My girls have always been more into territorial marking than my boys! One of my bitches…...the one spayed the earliest, although after her first heat......was bad for marking. If I took her into an unfamiliar house, I had to watch her like a hawk! She also loved intact males, and would treat neutered males as female......and she didn't like girls!!
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Really? I've always heard males mark more that females… I am learning so many things!! haha
Well Zorro wasn't marking before I posted this thread. But he has just started! Since my boyfriend has left on his trip (about a week ago), Zorro has peed three times on the couch and once on my bed. Which made me want him to be neutered even more, since I thought it might help... -
Not all inappropriate peeing is marking.
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@Ana:
Since my boyfriend has left on his trip (about a week ago), Zorro has peed three times on the couch and once on my bed.
What were the circumstances when he peed? (had he been out recently, was he upset about anything, did you see him do it or just find the evidence?)
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What were the circumstances when he peed? (had he been out recently, was he upset about anything, did you see him do it or just find the evidence?)
Well usually its while he is doing his B-500 around the house, then he jumps on the couch and pees. And I had taken him out maybe maximum one hour before he did this.
When he did it on the bed he was also excited, but I think its because one of my guy friends who was over to pick up a chair I was giving him. Zorro was running around him and all of a sudden ran in my bedroom, jumped on my bed (he never jumps on my bed) and peed in front of me. -
@Ana:
Well usually its while he is doing his B-500 around the house, then he jumps on the couch and pees. And I had taken him out maybe maximum one hour before he did this.
When he did it on the bed he was also excited, but I think its because one of my guy friends who was over to pick up a chair I was giving him. Zorro was running around him and all of a sudden ran in my bedroom, jumped on my bed (he never jumps on my bed) and peed in front of me.At his age, you just missed the fact that he needed to go out after the B-500… they, especially the boys, forget... and when they remember, too late for the human. You need to remember after such a run, regardless when the last time he was out, chances are he needs to pee again. And to stop the bed peeing... shut the door!
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To me that sounds more like over excitement than marking. My current boy has occasionally "lost it" when he got way too wired about something going on, although that hasn't occurred for some time. Usually when we had this problem…....and it wasn't confined to peeing, either......he was "beside himself", just totally wound up and frustrated about something.
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I also think the situation you described is far more likely excitement than marking. One of the rules of thumb with house training is to take them out frequently during hard play because they will forget. Also, this is the age, I have had boys wear themselves out so much that they pee in their sleep.
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I usually keep a baby gate up for my bedroom, that way he can't get in there. Problem is, when he does his B-500, I usually don't have time to get him out again for his pee. He zips around like a mad dog and just stops for about five seconds to pee and off he goes again. But I think he does get over excited sometimes.
Well I think watching him like a hawk is in order. If it isn't marking, I am glad! -
Another reason I find boys so funny….it's all about the moment and then whoops! Been there, gone through that...
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Another reason I find boys so funny….it's all about the moment and then whoops! Been there, gone through that...
Exactly!!!!!
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Another reason I find boys so funny….it's all about the moment and then whoops! Been there, gone through that...
Haha, they are funny!! I don't think I have had this much entertainment from a dog… EVER
For some reason, even if he has his "oops" moments, I can't be mad for more than a few seconds! He just looks so clueless!!
I just hope he will keep his personality after I get him neutered!! I wouldn't change that for anything! -
I don't use pain meds because I feel that if they feel a bit of pain, they will on their own slow down their movements…. if for some reason they are having extreme paid or they have a lower pain level, I will use for the first day or two.
Been a bit busy, not going to post research but will say this. I totally disagree with this. I think it is inhumane whether done to animals or humans. Beyond that, every single study has shown that mammals, humans and dogs included, heal faster when not in pain.
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The truth is, most vets (do a poll, call 10 in your area) don't know SQUAT about new research (last 10 yrs even) on effects of spay neutering. Read for an hour, make some calls and, like nutrition, you'll be sad to find you know as much as the typical vet does.
Here are facts. Nothing bad happens to a male dog not neutered before 14 mos. But bone cancer might for younger neuters. Male dogs, particularly dalmatians, can have SEVERE issues from early neutering. Do I support rescues neutering young? I think it is unforgivable to release a rescue dog that isn't neutered. But I hate hate hate hate that people have neutering shoved down their throats without being given the information to make a decision.
We don't have an ultimate answer, but I resent vets and others pushing it and not educating and letting people decide. Read, learn, decide. But know there is no right/wrong. And also know that in Europe, where spay/neuter not as common, have no more pet overpopulation. Irresponsible ownership is more to blame for overpopulation than possessing reproductive organs.
Want a good balance article about the topic.. try these by Christie Keith:
http://www.doggedblog.com/doggedblog/2006/05/its_just_that_t.html
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2010/04/06/petscol040610.DTL
Longevity (there are a couple of newer ones but I need to get off here.. they support this.. ovaries in bitches equals LONGER not shorter lives)
http://www.gpmcf.org/respectovaries.htmlhttp://www.cancer.umn.edu/research/programs/peccc/c3dec02.html
