I hope so too! Ive also started some training sessions together. Like having them both Sit (they will sit next to each other with no issues). I use a Clicker. Ill have them SIT and they both sit…ill click and they both get treats (a SMALL piece of hot dog). Kind of to teach them that being near each other can be rewarding. So far its worked. They can be inside the house toether with no conflict either. One will be on the couch near me the other in the recliner. The only tension is if one comes over to sniff the other. But neither snap anymore cuz when one growls the other heeds the warning and backs away. I love having another B around...they are like Potato chips...you cant have just one lol
Need good advice on serious topic:
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Debra, you are probably right, i should hand feed him, I ha a feeling I should do more during feeding so this doesn't develop into a problem. I'll start that tonight.
Jennifer- I can absolutely hand feed him without problems, it's only with stolen food which had now progressed into a mild discomfort with me around his food. He's even great with regular nylabones and toys but if it's an edible toy like an edible nylabone he growls at you if you try to take it, he will lete touch him during feeding but he stops eating and I feel the slightest tension in his body so I know he is trying to tell me " mom, not now.. I'm trying to eat!" -
The only thing I have to add is I think you need to be very careful with him around children if they have food or toys until you get this under control. I think if a kid dropped food or a toy and he was loose it is possible a similar "theft/bite" situation could occur.
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I completely agree, which is why Oakley will not be in contact with kids without direct supervision, and I will refrain from putting him in the same house with anyone under ten until I can hopefully, fix this behavior. Unfortunately that means he will be crated at home and bot enjoying the Christmas festivities but its in his and my best interest
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I just had a thought - this is not just a basenji thing, it's a dog thing. Could it be that protecting the self found 'garbage food' is a throw-back from times when dogs/wolves had to hunt to find their food and then guard it from other predators?
Anyway, I know that doesn't help you with the problem, but others have given some great advice. I know you love Oakley and that you will work this out with him.
If this post seems off the wall, forgive me. I have pneumonia and the antibiotics are making me kind of out of it.
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Oh gosh Fran, hope you feel better soon. Not that ANY time is good to be sick, but holidays are the worse.
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Thanks so much Debra. I've never had pneumonia before… it's kind of nasty. But it will pass with some TLC and a warm basenji on my lap.
After all, aren't they almost a 'cure all'? -
Hey Oakley's Mom! I have a good book recommended to me from a behaviorist. It is called "MINE!" by Jean Donaldson. Have not read all through it, but your boy may just be a resource guarder. Your vigilance with him at this time is crucial. The trading of the object does not let him think less of you as a leader. On the contrary, a resource guarder does so because things have been 'taken' from him in the past…..The trading allows him to trust you even more, that is won't have to 'guard' anything because you are a benevolent giver! Trading is not weakness. Does not matter what happened to get him here, just go forward from here with exercises that lead him to trusting the 'HAND'. When you said to him 'eat' that was a cue for you to use to divert his guarding mind and pay attention to you and change his little brain synapses to a good thing. No teeth and posturing allowed. I have not read the whole book, but you want to avoid the posture stage. You want avoid this point to avoid aggression. TRADING is good and changing his mind about guarding 'things' is the way to manage this; and possibly never happen again. Good Luck!
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@Buddys:
Hey Oakley's Mom! I have a good book recommended to me from a behaviorist. It is called "MINE!" by Jean Donaldson. Have not read all through it, but your boy may just be a resource guarder. Your vigilance with him at this time is crucial. The trading of the object does not let him think less of you as a leader. On the contrary, a resource guarder does so because things have been 'taken' from him in the past…..The trading allows him to trust you even more, that is won't have to 'guard' anything because you are a benevolent giver! Trading is not weakness. Does not matter what happened to get him here, just go forward from here with exercises that lead him to trusting the 'HAND'. When you said to him 'eat' that was a cue for you to use to divert his guarding mind and pay attention to you and change his little brain synapses to a good thing. No teeth and posturing allowed. I have not read the whole book, but you want to avoid the posture stage. You want avoid this point to avoid aggression. TRADING is good and changing his mind about guarding 'things' is the way to manage this; and possibly never happen again. Good Luck!
I don't have time to go thru this whole post right now…and this response is so awesome, I am just going to quote it
As some of you know, our Ivy is the queen of resource guarding. I feel her response was heightened because I did exactly what EEE described when Ivy was a young pup. My escalation of response encouraged her to guard harder, and eventually snap. I changed to a trading method, and her behavior softened *some. The damage was done. She never growls at me now when she has something, but she will growl at Tim, and occasionally snap at the kids if they push the issue. The problem with insisting that the dog respects you, is that if it works (which it won't with *every dog) it doesn't generalize to every human for the dog. Where as when you condition the dog to feel "happy" or "glad" when someone wants something they have, that translates in the dog's brain to all humans.Gotta go!
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For what it's worth, I have never dealt with theft in any other way than immediately taking the object from the dog, and I have never been nipped under these circumstances by any of the many dogs I have owned, nor have any of them nipped or bitten any other person. Anecdotal evidence, to be sure, but most people I know (my generation, I suppose) deal with it the same way with the same results. I do think much depends on the relationship you have with the animal, and the consistency of your response. In my household there has always been a clear understanding of what belongs to the dog and what doesn't, and one rule I have is that nothing is ever "let go" because "it really doesn't matter" or "I'm too busy". I'm just throwing that out because I think some problems start very small and we don't notice them until they escalate. Dealing with horses…...who outweigh me by a factor of ten......I have learned to nip disobedience in the bud, before it becomes something I really can't handle. The result is animals I can control with the lightest of touches, that respect me and others, and that are as safe for kids to be around as is possible with a large, reactive animal.
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For what it's worth, I have never dealt with theft in any other way than immediately taking the object from the dog, and I have never been nipped under these circumstances by any of the many dogs I have owned, nor have any of them nipped or bitten any other person. Anecdotal evidence, to be sure, but most people I know (my generation, I suppose) deal with it the same way with the same results. I do think much depends on the relationship you have with the animal, and the consistency of your response. In my household there has always been a clear understanding of what belongs to the dog and what doesn't, and one rule I have is that nothing is ever "let go" because "it really doesn't matter" or "I'm too busy". I'm just throwing that out because I think some problems start very small and we don't notice them until they escalate. Dealing with horses…...who outweigh me by a factor of ten......I have learned to nip disobedience in the bud, before it becomes something I really can't handle. The result is animals I can control with the lightest of touches, that respect me and others, and that are as safe for kids to be around as is possible with a large, reactive animal.
Or, it could be that you haven't had a dog that was willing to bite over some item that they stole. Lucky you! Maybe it is how you handle your dogs as pups…or maybe you have just been lucky to not have a dog with temperament issues...or maybe dogs just like you better than they like other people....I don't know...
I do agree though, that many people don't address a guarding issue the instant they see it. If people did, that would help tremendously for a dog that has a tendancy to guard. Every one of my dogs has tried guarding an item as a pup...it hasn't worked, and they gave it up...except Ivy. I am not about to advise people to 'gain their dog's respect' by taking away an item when the dog is snarling and lunging at them. You and I might be able to tell whether or not the dog is bluffing...but do you want to put the person you are advising at risk by suggesting they try to figure it out on their own?
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You and I might be able to tell whether or not the dog is bluffing…but do you want to put the person you are advising at risk by suggesting they try to figure it out on their own?
Oh, I absolutely agree with you there. People have to do what they are comfortable with, and if they are not confident it won't work out well. I spoke of my own experiences, and I admit that I (and most of my friends) am "old school" because that is very much our generation. Quite frankly, a dog that snarked at someone when I was a child would probably have been dismissed with a boot in the ass, but incidences of snarky dogs were extremely rare, for a whole bunch of reasons that no longer apply in our modern world. We never had one, and I didn't know anyone else who did.
How you handle the dog as a pup definitely comes into play here. If a pup has a very clear idea of where he fits in the family, the idea of defying anyone will simply never occur to him as he gets older. As a teenager I used to walk and train dogs for folks. Never suffered a bite from any of them, or a snark for that matter. As I said, different times. That kind of behaviour was simply not tolerated by many people "back in the day". (maybe breeders attended more to temperament back then? For sure, the temperament in many breeds has deteriorated, especially any that became popular)
The best advice for anyone who is unsure how to proceed is likely to work with a trainer or behaviourist, but even that can backfire if you use the wrong person. I have seen "positive" methods have unintended, negative results, I have seen people create fear biters with harsher methods, and I have also seen success stories both ways, so nothing is written in stone. I don't think anyone is likely to find a magic answer on the internet, and all advice needs to be taken with a grain of salt. But when in doubt the safest thing is distraction, not direct confrontation. I do not go that route because I haven't had to, and in an emergency (the dog has something that is dangerous to him) I would never hesitate to intervene, whether a bite was a likely result or not, so I just practice what works for me and in fifty plus years it hasn't let me down.
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Personally, I have never seen a situation where positive reinforcement methods have put a human at risk. As with any other training method…if done incorrectly, one could fail to correct the problem they are trying to change...but there is no point in arguing the details of our methodologies.
I think one reason that we see more cases of people dealing with problem dogs, is that when I was kid, and probaby you too. If your dog bit a kid you did either one of three things: you told the kid "don't bother the dog anymore", or you took the vet or the shelter where it was euthanized, or you took it behind the barn and shot it. People didn't want to understand why their dog bit, and they didn't really care, and they didn't think they could change the dog. Now people view the dog as a family member that you don't give up on, and many set up unrealistic expectations for the dog. People with problem dogs have to become instant experts, and they have people tell them they don't have a good relationship with their dog, and that they screwed up with the dog as a puppy because they were too lenient,or too harsh. When all they really want is a technique to improve their dog's behavior.
I am rambling....
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Personally, I have never seen a situation where positive reinforcement methods have put a human at risk. As with any other training method…if done incorrectly, one could fail to correct the problem they are trying to change...but there is no point in arguing the details of our methodologies.
I have seen problems with creating pushy, demanding, "entitled" animals when it is applied incorrectly. Usually when folks don't switch to intermittent rewarding, or reinforce something other than what they intended to reinforce.
I think one reason that we see more cases of people dealing with problem dogs, is that when I was kid, and probaby you too. If your dog bit a kid you did either one of three things: you told the kid "don't bother the dog anymore", or you took the vet or the shelter where it was euthanized, or you took it behind the barn and shot it.
Yes, no question about it. The usual method employed by people I knew was to discipline the kid. People usually understood the dog wasn't the party at fault.
I teased our Sheltie until he lost his patience. "Daddy, the dog bit me!" "What did you do to the dog?" No sympathy for me! And we had that dog until he was 14 years old…....wonderful dog. I grew up and learned to respect his space.People didn't want to understand why their dog bit, and they didn't really care, and they didn't think they could change the dog. Now people view the dog as a family member that you don't give up on, and many set up unrealistic expectations for the dog. People with problem dogs have to become instant experts, and they have people tell them they don't have a good relationship with their dog, and that they screwed up with the dog as a puppy because they were too lenient,or too harsh. When all they really want is a technique to improve their dog's behavior.
I think back then a lot of people did understand why their dog bit, if it bit. And usually took steps to improve matters. But the problem was less prevalent and I think that the way dogs were incorporated into a household had something to do with it. Dogs allowed on furniture were rare. Most dogs I knew had restrictions on where they could be in the house (ours was not allowed in carpeted areas, and he respected that whether we were home or not). And most importantly, dogs were not left alone for long periods of time. Mom was usually around, to deal with either dogs or kids or both. It makes a difference.
I am rambling….
Yeah, me too. As I've said before, I've been doing this a long time. When I started, the usual methods employed with dogs were positive reinforcement in the form of praise, positive punishment in the form of spanking, not so much use of negative punishment, which is more in style today, not a lot of negative reinforcement, either, although it was and is the primary method of training horses. (natural, because of the differences in what you are teaching, and the "nature of the beast") I am all for learning whatever "new" methods come down the pipe. (really, nothing is new, just "rebranded" and there is more jargon out there than there used to be) Although I have always used marker words, I find clickers great because they are more precise in use and lack the inflection of a verbal marker, which introduces inconsistency to the equation. I've employed them with horses also…...if anything, horses are quicker than dogs to offer behaviours, and they learn fast! There are many roads that lead to Rome, and the choice between them may rest with the individuals involved. One size seldom fits all, and I will not deprive myself of useful tools because they are currently out of favour. The pendulum swings, and if you live long enough you will see it swing back again......often several times. Now I really am rambling.
Merry Christmas and successful training to all.
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Not sure how others will interpret this/think it is okay, etc., but this method works for Kipawa and I regarding resource guarding, which thankfully hasn't happened yet. When Kipawa was very young and had any toy with him, even when it was in his mouth, I would take his head in my hands and kiss him on the cheek. Then I would hold onto the toy and kiss him on his cheek. Had I read about this anywhere? No. But I do have to say that Kipawa's nature is very kind. There is no resource guarding of any kind with food, even the most coveted, which is fresh organic bison steak.
I'd be interested to hear comments, or if anyone else had tried something similar to this.
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Not sure how others will interpret this/think it is okay, etc., but this method works for Kipawa and I regarding resource guarding, which thankfully hasn't happened yet. When Kipawa was very young and had any toy with him, even when it was in his mouth, I would take his head in my hands and kiss him on the cheek. Then I would hold onto the toy and kiss him on his cheek. Had I read about this anywhere? No. But I do have to say that Kipawa's nature is very kind. There is no resource guarding of any kind with food, even the most coveted, which is fresh organic bison steak.
I'd be interested to hear comments, or if anyone else had tried something similar to this.
Oh I would NOT NOT NOT suggest someone with a resource guarder to do this. That being said, Jet the trying will often growl at the other dogs in the house and I will pick him up and rub my face all over him. But I don't tell people that I do this, nor do i view it as training. I'm just 100% sure he won't bite me (or other humans). He's just grumpy (I mean the other dogs are standing there breathing his air!) I can actually do this with any of my dogs, but i truly believe that is the nature of my dogs and has very little to do with me. (Although I do think i'm an above average dog-owner and have invested hours/days/months/years worth of training in all of my basenjis.)
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Oh, I wouldn't suggest anyone put their face close to a resource guarder either…..one of the reasons it is a mistake to pick them up if "caught in the act". But in normal circumstances I love sticking my face in my dog's face and kissing him.....I do it all the time. I also startle him, stare at him, stalk him, grab him......it's all a game, and I think protects against the accidental trigger of hostility if he is used to it. With my horses I do all the stuff you aren't supposed to do as well. Running up to them waving my arms, then rewarding them with a carrot for not spooking. No matter how often kids are told not to do something, you can bet they will forget when they are excited, so the more exposure you can give an animal to "expect the unexpected" the better, IMHO. Only of course work up to the really scary stuff slowly!!!
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Removed for fear of lack of privacy
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Ding ding ding, we have a winner.
I tried to stay out of this, but nah.
First, your post drips condescending drivel. You words above indicate that people who don't know what they are doing, not confident, etc, should go the routes other suggest. But those with your awesome training ability should do yours. Let me state this CLEARLY for people reading this and accepting your posts.Not the way I read it, but never mind. I related my own experiences, didn't comment on my ability or lack thereof, and also commented on what is clearly anecdotal evidence…...that people of my generation tended to use similar methods with reasonable success (pretty much every kid I knew growing up had a dog at home. No serious bites reported, no dogs put down, and they all lived inside......I don't know anyone that had an outside dog in the city. Country people, maybe so, but I didn't know them).
I have worked with AGGRESSIVE large breed dogs. You bet your bottom dollar I am both experiences and confident. Your methods are not necessary, they increase the chance for aggressive response when it is utterly unnecessary, and choosing to train in a positive rather than macho way has NOTHING to do with confidence or experience but rather your own like for that style.
My neighbour has rehabilitated several Rottweilers…...think that is your breed.....and she is far more heavy handed than anyone else I know. I don't like her methods at all, but she has the best behaved dogs I have seen of that breed, so what does that prove? Nothing at all, except that making blanket statements based on anecdotal evidence proves exactly nothing.
Being 55 years old and raised in the "old style" environment, I suggest you didn't have quite broad enough exposure. Many dogs were in fact aggressive, dominant, nasty, unhinged whatever. But for MOST people back then, dogs lived outside, not in your face 24-7. They ate outside, they rarely got kids in close quarters, they had the ability to leave situations they didn't like or felt uncomfortable with. The dogs weren't better, the people weren't that much more insistent– hell a lot LESS since, oh yeah, MOST DOGS LIVED OUTSIDE--on great behavior. And dogs who did cross the line often got killed. But don't take my word for it, talk to people in their 50s and older and ask if they didn't ALL know of dogs that bit someone they knew or even family.
I've got ten years on you, and as I said, all the dogs I knew growing up lived inside, including the ones that I walked and trained for people starting when I was all of 12 years old. No biters, no nasty dogs, and I had quite a range. Shepherd crosses, a Golden, a Boxer, several cross breds, a Cavalier King Charles, oh, yeah, and a Greyhound. At the time many people let their dogs run during the day, so we came across lots of other dogs in our travels. I usually had four or five with me, typically 2 or 3 off leash. Can't say I ever had any serious fights to deal with. But dogs were typically better socialized then. Most were used to kids and other dogs, since they saw them all the time. You are right on one count. A truly nasty dog would not have been tolerated, and I am sure would have been put down. Sorry, in my sheltered existence I never heard of any…..and I knew most of the dogs living within a three mile or so radius.
Obviously we all agree on exposing dogs to all the type of experiences possible, but just like Andrea's dog, there are dogs you cannot make into docile stuffed toys. There are dogs that are more reactive no matter how much you expose, handle and work with. And if you think for one second that the rest of us have had dogs with issues because we are slackers who let things go, well, okay I am not really surprised you suggested that. YES, it is true for a lot of people whether we are talking training horses, dogs, children or anything. But problems arise even with those of us who don't let things go. And I know this is upsetting to you and your methods, but study upon study upon study prove that you can train nearly every single type of animal with nearly every type of behavioral problem using positive training. Period.
What exactly do you think "my methods" are? Using the operant jargon (which I first learned in the late sixties from my friend who was taking psychology and training her dad's hunting dog tricks to test methods), I use positive reinforcement, positive punishment, negative reinforcement (more so with horses than dogs) and negative punishment, as do all of you, as far as I can determine from reading posts. There is no judgemental weight in the descriptive terms, and "punishment" can be as light as a look or a tone of voice. With sensitive dogs, such as Border Collies and Shelties, that is enough…...more than enough......to be punishment. Even if you don't do that much, body language can act as positive punishment, and most of us are not great at disguising what we feel from our dogs. So, what we are really discussing here is degree, and what is appropriate in a situation. Do you draw the line at a look or a word, or do you allow a water pistol or a tone or a spritz of an aversive scent? Is a swat over the line? How about a full on beating? All are, or can be, "positive punishment". How the animal reacts will tell you. If the behavior diminishes you applied punishment. If it increases, it was reinforcement.
And those few who cannot (such as serious neurological issues, dangerous unstable temperaments and brain tumors, etc) couldn't be trained your way, sure as heck not with a shock collar, without utterly escalating the problem. Again, your methods are not necessary.
I am wondering if you are familiar with Daniel F. Tortora's study, "Safety training: The elimination of avoidance-motivated aggression in dogs". It is quite interesting. The program, which involved use of the e collar to modify behaviour, resulted in complete and permanent elimination of aggression in all of the 36 dogs tested. 100% success. Can't get a whole lot better than that. As far as the reasons for the dogs being aggressive in the first place, according to Tortora, these dogs usually suffer from a lack of training and predictability in their lives and therefore feel like they lack control over their environment. I've always felt that inconsistency is the main reason people run into problems, whatever their training method, and I think this bears that out.
And finally, lest you imagine that I am some weak-minded weak spine softie, I hung a dog up who charged at another person (his owner) until his eyes bulged to prevent him mauling me and the owner. We then took the 80 pound dog to the vet and put him down. He should have been put down long before, with 8 bites to family members and a neighbor– vet would not longer see him unless they had him muzzled before he went in. What caused the issues? I don't know. But not all dogs can be saved. And I have no issue doing what I have to do in an emergency. But I am happy to say that 99 percent of the time when dealing even with aggressive dogs, even when dealing (or maybe especially) with feral dogs, positive training, rewarding good behavior with treats and praise, avoiding ever making it a confrontation, works best. And that other 1 percent often is due to history and need for fast physical intervention. It is not a preferred method.
Oh, Debra, I so don't think you are a weak-minded weak spine softie! Not in any way, shape or form. I am sure I would rather take on one or all of your Rotties than you, in a physical confrontation.
I really don't think we have a lot to argue about. Discuss, perhaps. I have never said there is anything wrong with "positive" methods (however you want to define it), have only given another perspective on the subject, which as I have said works for me and many people I know, and is not for everyone. Folks can do what they feel comfortable with, use what methods appeal to them, and shouldn't feel guilty or ashamed of practicing something they find effective and that results in a good relationship with their animal.You know, I am tired of typing. I am tired of arguing. I am not going to change your mind, and you are not going to change mine. In any event, Merry Christmas, and all the best in the New Year.
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Our dog (11 years old) is a guarding biter with only things he knows will get taken away (bones he finds on a walk or human food). Now, if he gets human food we just let him have it (not worth getting bit over) and he seems to be less guarding over those situations now. Another issue is our other basenji, who never bites humans, will steal his stolen treasure, increasing his guarding instincts.
The ultimate problem I find is when he gets something he absolutely can't have, like a chicken bone and "A" you are outside with nothing to substitute it with, or "B" nothing that is better at home in his eyes for a substitute. You have to confront him for his own good. If he is outside on a leash you can try to hang him up to get him to drop it, or wait till he drops it & yank him away. Again if he is not on a leash there is not much you can do, maybe a squirt bottle, but I find he still will not give it up.
What can you do in these situations?
Maybe the plastic bat?The last 5 years they happen few & far between, because we do not let him get anything he should not have, or again he can keep it if its not dangerous to him. Walks are the worst & sometimes things just happen no matter how hard you try or you let your guard down.
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What can you do in these situations?
Maybe the plastic bat?I laughed when I read that. The good old plastic bat. I have never used one myself, but my neighbour has used it very effectively with rank stallions. It startles without really hurting, so doesn't put them on the fight. (she has trained 8 breeding stallions in the almost 30 years I have known her, and without exception they have all had wonderful manners…...necessary, because she runs a breeding operation on her own)
With a dog of that age, that you know will bite, I think discretion is the better part of valor. If you try to take the thing he is guarding, does he drop it to grab you, or does he bite after you have hold of the object? I don't like hanging a dog up, but would do it without hesitation if he was trying to bite me. At least when you have a leash on him you have that option. If a squirt bottle doesn't impress him, what about a good, high volume water pistol?
If it were me, I would definitely tackle him if he got hold of something dangerous. And take the bite if I wasn't quick enough to avoid it. If you know you are going to be bitten anyway, shoving your hand down his throat and keeping it there can make him think twice about trying that with you a second time. (very old school move. I'll make it clear I don't recommend it, but have seen it work.)
You could certainly try teaching "It's yer choice" (good description here: http://raisingk9.blogspot.com/2011/03/its-yer-choic.html) and attempt to make it a habit to give things up in the expectation of better things. The problem with this type of training is that it takes time and may or may not be transferable to a real life situation. I think you would have to practice it out and about, to have any hope of it working "in the field". Perhaps proof it by setting him up to "find" something and see if he responds appropriately. With an older dog, habits die hard. With luck and vigilance, perhaps at his age you have already "won the war".
