Help! Not sure about a trainer to help with a kid-nipping basenji

[eeeefarm]

I'm uncomfortable with the idea of encouraging the dog to think of kids as treat dispensers. This can lead to unintended consequences. Reprogramming the dog to like kids works until it doesn't. There is no substitute for proper, vigilant, adult supervision…...and teaching kids how to act around animals is a big part of the solution. At least this dog has signaled her discomfort with children of a certain age, which is resulting in more vigilance. The real horror story is the dog that was always great with kids......right up until that nasty bite. Happens more often than you think. (because kids are cruel to dogs, and adults don't always pay attention)

[Buddys Pal]

@Quercus:

I agree with all of this, except…it is unlikely that you will be able to find a good trainter that will do a free, no obligation eval. Perhaps a reasonable trainer would charge a small fee for a short meeting, but trainers and particularly behaviorists couldn't and shouldn't be expected to give their valuable time for free. You wouldn't expect to take your dog to the vet when there is a problem, and receive a free evaluation before you decide if you want to do treatment, right? Time is valuable! That being said, I will often do a phone consultation with someone, and tell them whether or not I think I can help them...and outline exactly what we would work on to improve the problems they are having. That way, they can see if they think my training methods, and our personalities would mesh well.

Having worked with a Basenji is not a requirement for doing good work with a Basenji. But understanding how dogs like Basenjis think IS. If he uses force or punishment to train, this is not the kind of trainer you want.

appreciate your insight, however, doing a 'free' eval allows the trainer to view the dog's body language. most of the time an owner is not as observant (info from a phone conversation for example) as a good trainer should be concerning the reason for the behavior, the before and after scenario etc. Also, the time should not be wasted as it is an opportunity for the prospective client to meet and greet the trainer as well to make a decision, et all. Time is not wasted because a good trainer will be observing dog/owner relationship, etc. I never waste my time!

[Buddys Pal]

"There is no substitute for proper, vigilant, adult supervision…...and teaching kids how to act around animals is a big part of the solution."

SO VERY TRUE!!!!

[DebraDownSouth]

@eeeefarm:

I'm uncomfortable with the idea of encouraging the dog to think of kids as treat dispensers. This can lead to unintended consequences. Reprogramming the dog to like kids works until it doesn't. There is no substitute for proper, vigilant, adult supervision…...and teaching kids how to act around animals is a big part of the solution

Please show me where you think I indicated that adult supervision and teaching kids respect and right behavior wasn't part of the solution. Find me a post in the years I have been on this board where I EVER didn't put proper ownership/training/responsibility at the top of the issue.

However, while you are free to think "treat dispenser" is bad– I could show you a billion sites where treat/food dispenser is precisely the basis for much training of dogs where food is controlled and given by those with positive connection. What unintended consequences? Unless you have some idiot allowing the dog to TAKE food from the child, there are none. And again, No MATTER HOW DILIGENT, IF YOU DON"T READJUST THIS DOG'S RESPONSE TO CHILDREN AND YOU BLINK, JUST BLINK, and your chances of that nasty bite go up astronomically. Your advice to simply keep kids away is the one that won't work and keeps the risks highest with a dog in a home WITH A CHILD who will reach that age.

But please don't pretend I suggested any training is a substitute or INSTEAD of "proper, vigilant, adult supervision." But I do wonder if you have children because most parents on earth know that no matter how vigilant, things happen. Retraining this dog to LIKE that age child gives you a buffer for those situations.

[eeeefarm]

@DebraDownSouth:

Please show me where you think I indicated that adult supervision and teaching kids respect and right behavior wasn't part of the solution. Find me a post in the years I have been on this board where I EVER didn't put proper ownership/training/responsibility at the top of the issue.

Never said you indicated that. Just that your priorities might not match up with mine. Different strokes. However, I have seen the unfortunate results of teaching a dog that it is just fine to accept treats "for breathing". If you must use this method to train your dog to like kids, make sure the dog has to do something for the reward. I have seen perfectly nice dogs turn into little "entitlement" machines that expect to be fed for doing nothing. Something like garbage dump bears. And they don't like it when the goodies aren't forthcoming.

Yes, I totally agree stuff happens with kids…..and dogs.....and it doesn't take much time. If you are lucky, the consequences of a lapse of attention won't be serious. But never, ever trust that your dog is "kid proof". No such thing, in my books. You can be lulled into carelessness if you believe that.

I could also state the obvious and mention that there is a huge difference in most dogs attitude towards members of their family....child growing up.....vs visitor.

[lvoss]

@eeeefarm:

Never said you indicated that. Just that your priorities might not match up with mine. Different strokes. However, I have seen the unfortunate results of teaching a dog that it is just fine to accept treats "for breathing". If you must use this method to train your dog to like kids, make sure the dog has to do something for the reward. I have seen perfectly nice dogs turn into little "entitlement" machines that expect to be fed for doing nothing. Something like garbage dump bears. And they don't like it when the goodies aren't forthcoming.

But you are not rewarding the dog "for breathing". You are rewarding the dog for doing something that makes it uncomfortable. Once the dog is comfortable being around kids then you can add criteria for earning a reward but if just being near the child makes it want distance withholding the reward until it does an additional behavior will only increase the anxiety.

@eeeefarm:

Yes, I totally agree stuff happens with kids…..and dogs.....and it doesn't take much time. If you are lucky, the consequences of a lapse of attention won't be serious. But never, ever trust that your dog is "kid proof". No such thing, in my books. You can be lulled into carelessness if you believe that.

But your advice was basically manage the situation so they never encounter kids and then hope for getting lucky if they do. This is bad advice. Managing situations to avoid the problem is good but training for situations when management fails is also necessary or chances are you won't get lucky.

For a dog that is really uncomfortable around small children, I would start treating for being in the presence of kids at a distance. Treats coming from the owner. You want the presence of kids to be a predictor that good things are going to happen.

[Nemo]

@eeeefarm:

However, I have seen the unfortunate results of teaching a dog that it is just fine to accept treats "for breathing". If you must use this method to train your dog to like kids, make sure the dog has to do something for the reward. I have seen perfectly nice dogs turn into little "entitlement" machines that expect to be fed for doing nothing. Something like garbage dump bears. And they don't like it when the goodies aren't forthcoming.

That's not "rewarding for breathing" it is textbook classical conditioning and de-sensitization. You have to de-sensitize a dog to what stresses it before you can ask it to perform behaviors and move on to counter-conditioning. I don't think I've seen an example through various methods I'm familiar with (Control Unleashed, Click to Calm, BAT, etc.) where you don't do both de-sensitization and counter-conditioning. You won't get as far just asking it to perform behaviors when it is under stress.

[eeeefarm]

O.K. what we have here is a failure to communicate. I was objecting to the idea of having kids walk past tossing treats. Yes, you can condition an animal to tolerate whatever stresses them by beginning at their comfort level…...but the reward should come from the trainer, not some stranger, big or small. Expecting and being encouraged to take food from a stranger is not a road I want to go down with my dog. (although it is difficult to train a dog to avoid taking treats from strangers, it's a good idea to discourage rather than encourage the practice. Poisoning doesn't have to be deliberate.) My approach would be to take some time with the dog at a distance from, say, a schoolyard. Work a "look at that" game into it. Eventually......and very slowly......get the dog comfortable in a setting where children may approach and even do something abrupt and potentially threatening, which will take a lot of work and patience, and even then.......don't expect miracles if a child does something that causes pain to the dog.

No procedure and no dog is "foolproof". Keep an eye on things when dogs and kids are interacting. I'm not suggesting you keep the dog away from children at all times, only that you be aware of what is going on. With any dog, whether it has issues which are not yet resolved or not, do not let the kids force themselves on the dog.

[lvoss]

Though I don't want my dog poisoned, teaching them to avoid taking treats from strangers isn't the way to go. If your dog gets loose, then you want it to be willing to go towards strangers helping to catch it and often those strangers will use treats or some other lure reward.

[DebraDownSouth]

Cheap & dirty solution: tell the kids to stay away from the dog. Let her approach them, if she is so inclined. Educating children not to approach dogs that aren't their own family pet is a "good thing", and may prevent an incident with someone else's dog as a bonus.

I was writing a long response and stopped myself. Everyone can read the thread– can see you seem not to comprehend how truly powerful conditioning positive responses works. But it is obvious that anything I write you will jump on and that when others agree with me, you will backpedal. Your original post, not a word about reconditioning, now putting in your own version of it. Glad you made some move at least. But having kids produce treats works. Once the dog is happy to see kids, you take the next steps. Note i told the OP to talk to the trainer. I am not there. And while I have worked with many aggressive dog issues, only someone watching this dog will know the real situation and needs. In the meantime, simply making children a positive situation goes a long way.

[Patty]

So much good advice here - and from some professional trainers so I'm sure you'll soon solve this problem. Mine are very good with children but there are some (children) who react in such an exciteable way towards dogs who need also to be trained in my opinion.

[eeeefarm]

I think this is a good discussion. Different experience makes for different points of view. I truly don't want to argue, but discuss. I've used "positive" methods with both horses and dogs for a long, long time. I was doing the "horse whisperer" stuff before it got popular…..to teach my guys to come at my call, stand while being mounted, etc. etc. However, I am uncomfortable with the way in which people interpret (or misinterpret) how to go about conditioning a positive response because I have seen people who misunderstand create animals that are pushy, demanding, and downright dangerous.

In my opinion, if you have a dog that has issues, particularly one that is mature and has recently changed its behaviour toward kids (or whatever), something has likely happened to cause this. If the dog is uncomfortable and chooses to avoid children, and you condition it to accept children by pairing kids with a food reward, the danger is that the dog will now seek out children (to obtain a reward) and a child will inadvertently trigger a bite by doing something that recalls in the dog the original incident that started the behaviour in the first place. If you don't know what that was, all you are doing is increasing the likelihood that an incident will occur. Everyone who has been around dogs for awhile has seen or heard of an instance where a dog "went off" on someone for no apparent reason. There is always a reason. It's just that we often don't know what it is. Kids are not going to tell you what they may have done to the dog when you weren't looking.

One thing is certain. "The only thing two trainers can agree on is that the third one is doing it wrong!"

In any event, I hope that the OP gets good advice from a competent trainer and has a successful outcome, whatever method is employed. I'm off to Cuba for a week, so I'll be away from the forum for awhile. My sincere thanks to all for an interesting discussion (one of many) and a special acknowledgement to Debra, with whom I am sure I will continue to "agree to disagree". Would love to discuss dog training over a bottle of wine some long evening. Who knows? We might even get along.

[YodelMa]

I've got to agree with eeeefarm and Chealsie508: NO parent has time to supervise dogs and kids 24/7, but if you can't, training the dog–who will never mature beyond a mental age of 3--isn't the answer. Save yourself the money, train the kids--or keep the dog with you or crated when there are Foreign Anklebiters on Prem.

[DebraDownSouth]

YodelMa, really? So if you can't train every child in the world to respect your dog, don't bother training the dog? Okay then. Because if you read, the issue is not the PERSON'S CHILDREN, but others. You only have so much control of other people's kids. So while no one said teaching the dog to become positive about children is foolproof, it is one huge step.

And again, sorry but nonsense on the trigger a bite. Of course any one, not just a child, can do something to make your dog bite. BUT if the dog is stressed about children AND you blink AND they do something, you can bet your last dollar there will be a bad response. But if you teach the dog to respond positively to children, AND you blink AND they do something stupid, your chances are greatly improved that this now-relaxed around kids dog might not respond horribly. And to argue with that simply defies any logic or knowledge of conditioning training.

And now, done, because no matter how logical or sensible I post, someone twists into these bizarre outcomes and it isn't a discussion, it is beating a dead horse.

[YodelMa]

@DebraDownSouth:

YodelMa, really? So if you can't train every child in the world to respect your dog, don't bother training the dog? Okay then. Because if you read, the issue is not the PERSON'S CHILDREN, but others. You only have so much control of other people's kids. So while no one said teaching the dog to become positive about children is foolproof, it is one huge step.

Debra, you'll agree that the time–and skill--required to produce a RELIABLE response is considerable, even with a trainer on board. Realistically, does the mother of an active 4/5 year old have that time and skill? Which is why my response is 1) supervise 2) teach the kids to be respectful 3) if 1) and 2) not possible, separate the dog from the kids.

[DebraDownSouth]

I don't remember the last part being there before

NO parent has time to supervise dogs and kids 24/7, but if you can't, training the dog–who will never mature beyond a mental age of 3--isn't the answer. Save yourself the money, train the kids--or keep the dog with you or crated when there are Foreign Anklebiters on Prem

.
Pretty sure an add in but regardless…
you say no parent can supervise-- so save the money and train the kids.
I say nonsense, train the dog, bring your child up, try to educate and train other people's kids and absolutely supervise. And if you have a house full of guests, and a dog, crating the dog is common sense. And not just crate, but crate in a quiet area where some kid you don't know and cannot count on won't stick his hand in the cage. Those continually throwing in common sense things adds little here.

The bottom line is you say training the dog a waste. I am shaking my head. Training the dog is always a big part of the answer. And if you are a RESPONSIBLE owner, you do what you need to train your dog. And tell me, is it too much to spend 10 to 15 mins twice a day, 3 or 4 days a week for a few weeks to get your dog to NOT see children as stressful or threats? You'd rather spend a LIFETIME of locking it away and hope no one ever slips up?

And to answer your question, I had Rottweilers, chow, rescues all the tiem my child was growing up. Yes, I had time. Active children do not need you supervising them 24/7. Children need alone creative time, naps (thank goodness) and in reality, my child helped feed and train the dogs from the time she was about 4. Dear spirits my 125 pound rottweiler hit the floor in a down faster for her than ever for me. And if you don't have time to train your dog and raise a child, don't get a dog or learn better time management. I had a friend who had a child with CP. Training her dog was her "me time" relaxation.

It is about commitment. And I can think of nothing more critical than dealing with a dog who is child aggressive. and I can think of nothing more irresponsible than simply choosing to try to isolate the dog from children when you have a child of your own. Do a web search for kids bit by neighbors dogs. You think you can't watch your own child 24/7== try watching the world. Which goes back to the beginning-- condition the dog to see kids in a positive light and in that BLINK moment, you have upped your chances of a good outcome. I cannot even believe anyone could argue with that. So now I am truly done.

[Quercus]

@DebraDownSouth:

And to answer your question, I had Rottweilers, chow, rescues all the tiem my child was growing up. Yes, I had time. Active children do not need you supervising them 24/7. Children need alone creative time, naps (thank goodness) and in reality, my child helped feed and train the dogs from the time she was about 4. Dear spirits my 125 pound rottweiler hit the floor in a down faster for her than ever for me. And if you don't have time to train your dog and raise a child, don't get a dog or learn better time management. I had a friend who had a child with CP. Training her dog was her "me time" relaxation.

It is about commitment. And I can think of nothing more critical than dealing with a dog who is child aggressive. and I can think of nothing more irresponsible than simply choosing to try to isolate the dog from children when you have a child of your own. Do a web search for kids bit by neighbors dogs. You think you can't watch your own child 24/7== try watching the world. Which goes back to the beginning– condition the dog to see kids in a positive light and in that BLINK moment, you have upped your chances of a good outcome. I cannot even believe anyone could argue with that. So now I am truly done.

The part about it being unrealistic to directly supervise older kids 24/7 is completely accurate. Even younger ones to some extent…because...well, you have to have a shower occasionally, and dishes have to be done eventually. That being said, there are some dogs that just can't be trusted alone with kids, and those dogs can be crated when these situation are necessary. We have one dog like that...she has improved tremendously in the eight years we have had kids, at first she couldn't really be trusted around our toddler even with us in the room....now she is reasonably trustworthy around twin toddlers, but I still don't trust her alone with them. This change in her occurred with natural desensitization to the hubbub of children, time passing, and some concentrated work with her to learn to look to me, when she gets that feeling of "I am overwhelmed". So obviously, if she gets overwhelmed because a toddler falls on her, and I am not there, she doesn't have anyone to turn to. Not fair to her, or the kids.

I don't think there really is an argument to be had here. Both parts of the puzzle are needed here. There needs to be desensitizing training, there needs to be an alternative response behavior trained in the dog, and the dog needs to be put in a 'safe' and comfortable place when she can't be directly supervised with the kids. She will probably be extremely grateful to not be in an overstimulating environment. At first I felt so bad for Ivy when she required a time-out in her crate...but I quickly realized that often she was *asking to get away from the excessive stimulation.

For the OP, I really suggest that if you are committed to keeping this dog in your family, you find a really good trainer/behaviorist who only uses positive methods, and is up to date on the most current topics in dog training and behavioral modification, and pay whatever is necessary (obviously within your means). If you are unsure what trainers would fit the above description, search the internet for 'dog behavioral training' or 'positive reinforcement training'..or even this forum has a TON of threads about what kinds of training is out there. You CAN help this dog fit into your family...but it will take some work, and some committment

[DebraDownSouth]

Oh I totally agree. Even though I trusted my dogs, if I was in the shower, they were crated or she was in her room with a gate keeping HER in it, when she was young.

[Buddys Pal]

Hey poopydog! long….thread! So, let us know how it went with the trainer????? What say they?

[Buddys Pal]

As you can see from my postings, I am interested in the outcome. However, as I was reading through some of my old email, one came up from Dr Sophia Yin from California (I went to a seminar in Orlando and met her-cool lady!) (Debra Down South should agree that is it from a quality resource…) It is about classical/counter conditioning. Your pup may not be 'aggressive' but definitely reactive, so if you read through the link with the videos, you should gain some insight. I am going to start throwing more treats at Uzie since he has recently decided he does not like my older boy and growls as Hershey passes by-not too peaceful in the household! http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/preventing-dog-bites-stop-dog-aggression-before-it-starts Hope this helps out-anyone!