LOL, okay baby marking. Just cause he can't hike his leg yet, doesn't mean the pee isn't for the same purpose– to say HRRMPFTH to that OTHER DOG and let it know it might SLEEP there but the bed is his. LOL, gotta love attitude.
Marking problem
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You make it seem like it is a natural and logical thing to do for a dog.
Reading the commends here, they do it when excited, when displeased, when nervous…
It's not that once a dog get's into a different state of mind, that he forget's the world around him. Knowing what's happening around them is one of the strongest instincts in a dog, simular to hunting instinct. Their survival depends on it. Except in cases of extreme fear, a dog never stops watching what's happing and will allways be allert.
Let's take Kipawa's examples. Don't seem situations in wich the dog would be so excited he forgets the rest of the world. The 3rd example she mentions, they just met a woman with 2 dogs on leash. So what could trigger the behavior there? Excitement propably not, displeasure also seems weird, nervous the same... I'm pretty sure that there, the dog knew pretty well what he was doing and that it was most likely a sign of dominance. The dog saying 'look what I can do, and it's so easy, ain't I the best?'.
Examples in the show ring. Maybe your dog get's really excited, but still, lifting his leg against yours, is still a sign of disrespect. Some people here said they reacted, and he did it just once. But according to what you say, they would get so excited again next time, that they again go into an other state of mind, forget all what's around them, and would do it again, cause they aren't aware of it when they do it.
In dogs is not that abnormal to establish dominance that way, and you have to teach them that it's not OK when they do it with humans. And they way I see it, if your dog tries to do it with his owner, something in the relationship between the 2 of them isn't what it should be. You aren't clear enough to your dog, he doesn't respect you like he should, bonding is not optimal and it's then just one of the many ways your dog can make that clear to you, so you know you got to do something about it. And this is a behavior that you can work on and that can be solved. Not something that you just have to deal with because the dog can't help it.I have never seen a dog mark on another dog to show dominance…and I have never read any reference to it by any credible researcher....neither in dogs, nor wolves. They WILL mark over each other's urine...but not on each other intentionally.
I never said that it is something you just have to deal with...you can definitely teach your dog not to do it...did you see my comment about catching them in the act?
I don't subscribe to your belief in dominance in dogs...and you will find that most progressive trainers and behaviorists don't either. We will have to agree to disagree.
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And just to shed some more light. Dogs and humans do things all the time while not paying much attention. That is why car accidents exisit…people don't usually choose to run off the road, they get distracted. Do you have kids? I can guarantee you that a distracted seven year old will not be able to actually get the pee in the toilet 50% of time.
It would be great if every puppy and human child came out of the womb able to give their complete and undivided attention to any task at hand...but that isn't reality. But that doesn't mean that they do it because of a lack of respect. It also doesn't mean that they shouldn't be taught what is acceptable and what isn't.
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All of you have provided me with much food for thought. Thank you everyone for the comments. That's why I love this forum, because Kipawa is unique in that he is Kipawa, so even things disagreed upon may offer a clue to his behaviour and why he does something.
Kipawa LOVES the dog parks where these incidents happened, so for him, I am tending to think that there definitely is excitement involved, which could add to him wanting to pee, and yes, if an owner was around a dog he was hanging with, he might also pee on the human due to a small display of dominance. I also can see the validity and I do understand what some of you are saying, regarding peeing on the most upright thing, which could be a person.
What to do? I will watch him and be closer to him (may require me to do sprint training!) if I see him seeking out an area where people are just standing around. And Therese gave me an excellent idea - make sure he is 'peed out' before entering the park.
I can tell you that Kipawa and I have a very strong bond. He is with me wherever I go in the house, and when outside and off leash in a fenced park, he always looks back to see where I am. Of course, the bond can always grow. With this in mind, I am talking to another dog behaviour class. He passed his puppy class with flying colours, so it's time to continue with his learning process.
Again, thanks to everyone.
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I don't subscribe to your belief in dominance in dogs…and you will find that most progressive trainers and behaviorists don't either.
After reading Dog Sense, How the New Science of Dog Behavior Can Make You a Better Friend to Your Pet by John Bradshaw, I'd have to agree.
I grew up with the idea that dogs are going to try and dominate and control their people unless the people show the dog that THEY (the people) are the pack leader (shades of Cesar Milan).
Bradshaw's contention is that, during the process of domestication, "…dogs that showed a tendency to control their human hosts would have been selected against..."
I found Brandshaw's book very interesting and it dispelled a lot of myths we've all grown up to believe about dogs. I'd highly recommend it to anyone.
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What's going on here? It happens so fast that I can't get to him before he does it.
If you have to put a belly band on him at the park to stop the behavior, do it. Duct tape it on if necessary. Give him a lot of time to pee and mark, then band him. This said by someone who had a dog who would mark me and my daughter ONLY any opportunity he got, in the house or outside if we had company, or even if company had been here and LEFT.. and in public. It was clearly a "mine mine mine!" comment to others. But he also did it at other times, so you tell me. I don't know why.
I know, but I don't believe that they aren't fully aware of what they are marking.
I think they know pretty well what they are marking, how excited they may be.Precisely, and I am surprised to see people suggest otherwise. Dogs have a sense of smell, if nothing else. Nor do they lose their minds. And truly, if this were the case, massively more dogs would indeed mark people.
If excitement didn't play a role in it, then they would piss on our legs when were standing around our own yard,.
Quite a few do.
I have never seen a dog mark on another dog to show dominance…and I have never read any reference to it by any credible researcher....neither in dogs, nor wolves. They WILL mark over each other's urine...but not on each other intentionally.
I don't subscribe to your belief in dominance in dogs.
First, yeah they do. I have known several dogs (Rotties, huskies, even a chihuahua among others) who do indeed mark other dogs as well as their pee. I thought, maybe I just know unusual dogs… but nope. Google turns up a lot of people saying their dog marks other dogs. I have never seen wolves do it, but then, dogs are bred down quite differently.
And sorry, the new fad is to relabel "dominance" as status or other buzz words instead of to understand the behavior. New buzz words won't help. Some dogs want status or dominance or whatever word you want to use over different things. Some dogs want that "status" over food, others over where to sleep. I don't see that it helps at all to claim it isn't dominance but status, but whatever.
To say that dominance is bred out as a blanket statement is utterly simplistic and oh yeah, wrong. Every breed varies, dogs within breeds vary. Whether you call it status or dominance, there are many dogs with behaviors that indicate their intent to control or show they are indeed top dog over some things. People just don't get that it depends. I have seen dogs who had to have the pick spot, enter doorways first, mark over every other dogs' pee... but could care less who ate first. But we sure agree the response to dog behaviors is positive training, not some macho alpha roll, hitting even with a newspaper or aversive responses most of the time. (I say most because I am more than willing to use a belly band to make them mark on their own self, double sided tape to stop counter surfing, etc
)Bradshaw has basically repackaged nothing new, same thing many trainers have said for 20 yrs, but I applaud he is getting to the public. I object to his interviews claiming he has a new spin on positive (claims that older trainers did it to be fair, etc when they said precisely the same reasons he says, for like, oh forever) And who can object to someone touting positive training. But anything new? Nothing I found.
However, I also find conflicts in his talks. One actually applies to aggression/dominance with dogs. He acknowledges that studies of wolves in zoos are not natural and don't compare to natural structure, that they fight and show aggression due to abnormal forced packs. In the wild, wolves leave when unwanted or to avoid fights/death. In a zoo, they can't so aggression escalates. He fails to comprehend and acknowledge that precisely the same problem occurs in homes. When 2 dogs fight, they can't just leave and find a new pack. Then humans do stupid things to try to force them to get along and often end up with injured or dead animals. You can label it with whatever word you want, but the behavior is there.
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Ugh….I never said dominance doesn't exist in dogs, of course it does. I said I don't agree with voodoo's 'belief'...I suppose I SHOULD have said 'perception' of dominance. Let me clarify...I don't believe dogs pee on people to state dominance to them...I DO believe that some dogs MAY pee on people to claim 'ownership' of them..and I DO think that MOST dogs (and particularly Basenjis) don't do this unless they are distracted, particularly if they are young, unneutered males.
And I did say that I have never SEEN dogs mark each other...and I have seen a lot of dogs in my life...but if you say you have, then you have.
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I've read all the posts and I personally am still not sure. I have occasionally seen Basenjis pee on other Basenjis and the peed on dog (often a bitch) doesn't react at all - why? It would be interesting to see some research on this - there must be some - people seem to research almost everything!!
My boys usually let me know when they are going to pee by sniffing for the right spot so I'd naturally know what they were planning!
I think I've posted before about the male Chi who peed on one of our very well known allrounder judges (Albert White) in the ring after he'd given it Best of Group!! At the time it seemed rather like an act of contempt!
Any way Kipawa has been given lots of good advice but I must say I've never encountered a Basenji boy who has been peed out!! They always seem to manage another dribble!!!!
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and I DO think that MOST dogs (and particularly Basenjis) don't do this unless they are distracted, particularly if they are young, unneutered males.
This leads me to question which I will also talk to Therese about - Kipawa is 9 months old and almost 26 lbs. As he is our companion dog (no breeding), should we start to think of neutering him? I understand about the bone growth, and how lack of it can produce a 'wheatie' look in the legs. I'm willing to get x-rays done to check on the bones. I just don't want Kipawa forming habits that are undesireable.
The other thing that makes me think it's time for Kipawa is he is quite dominant, he was from day 1, and he continuously 'tests the boundaries'. I stand up to him quite well, but I'm now comparing waiting an additional 3 months for growth against the benefit of neutering him.
I know breeders want to wait 1, 1 1/2, or 2 years before they suggest neutering a basenji (companion dog), but I'm wondering if it could be different for each individual dog, and that it now could be now for Kipawa, to ensure he remains the great dog he is.
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Honestly, "testing" the boundaries is a way of life for a Basenji, IMO…. Neutered/spayed or not.
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I only briefly skimmed the comments… Just going to respond based on my experience.
Bowdu (my Shiba) did this for a while, mostly trying to pee on other dogs, but occasionally trying to pee on people too. He started when he was about two years old (well after he was neutered). I managed to fix the habit fairly quickly, I think.
The first few times he did it to dogs, it seemed exactly because the other dog was acting "tree-like." After the initial greeting, if the other dog would stiffen or look away, not moving, then Bowdu would take the opportunity to move up to the dog's side and pee on them. It would only take a second. Very embarrassing.
I learned to watch for his body signals -- you CAN catch them, but you have to watch carefully and quickly. For Bowdu, it was the way he approached, strutting hard and fast, then sniffing at a certain angle, and the way he moved away from the dog he was sniffing. The sniff ALWAYS comes first. And if he looked like he was about to move into position to aim where he just sniffed, I would make a sharp sound to distract him or swoop in there and shoo him away. Not sure how conscious he was of his actions, but he definitely seemed to "snap out" of some kind of reverie when I went in there with an AH-AH or clapped my hands.
I only needed to correct him a few times over the course of several consecutive days before he immediately stopped doing it as much. And then he tried it maybe once a week. To once every few months. To less than that, now. He still has it in him, but I no longer feel like I have to be hyper-vigilant about it. I've usually got an eye on him anyway.
When he marks other dogs, I do think he's being a jerk with some awareness of what he's doing. I'm not calling it dominance because I'm not sure that's what it is, and that seems like too easy of a way to label the behavior.
Whatever's going through his mind, I don't think it's the same thing as when he's marking humans. When he's marked humans in the past, he seems to be more fixated on a smell, not the person who's underneath the pants. He's never tried to pee on a human wearing shorts with their legs exposed, for example. So, knowing his quirks, I just watch him carefully and try to be quick enough to catch him in the act, or with that intensely focused look on his face, and snap him out of it. He DOES knows better, he just needs to be reminded of that sometimes.
Long anecdotal comment, but hopefully it helps.
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What behaviors, besides this peeing, are you seeing?
I deal with many people who expect neutering to be a magic fix for adolescent behavior. They are then puzzled and dismayed when the dog is still doing the things after the neuter. Most of the behaviors that they are dealing with go to a certain lack of impulse control so that they have rude greeting behaviors with human and canine, poor leash manners, inattention, etc.
No matter what you choose to do, I highly recommend to continue with training. I find that the best way to help with the adolescent behaviors especially the boundary pushing because it helps to clarify the boundaries.
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Kipawa, I'm not sure if you are still reading this thread, but it's very entertaining. It's amazing how a "P" story can travel around the world and get great feedback. I wish there was a LIKE button in this forum!
Anyway, I think Voodoo has some great insight. My sister takes her male basenji to the same dog park, everyday, since she adopted him over a year ago. She thinks that Bacchus believes this is HIS land, for whenever a human enters his magical gates, Bacchus must scamper to the gates and watch the entrance.
On the other side of the coin, there are picnic tables at this park, and many owners allow their dogs to picnic table surf… my sister let Bacchus too, until he decided that table surfing was okay at home... and then at our parents house, lol.
Therefore, whenever Bacchus hops on the table at the dog park, my sister reprimands him and makes him get down. The other dogs are still chilling out on the table, but my sister insists that he gets down. Guess what that little B does?
He goes to another table, where my sister is NOT and hops on it. And patiently sits until she sees him. And then there's the silent war... does she stomp over there and demand that he gets DOWN, or does she let him "WIN" the war?
I Love Basenjis. Capital L.
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I'm totally reading this thread - so much great information. I've been in contact with Therese and Kevin, and have decided to wait until Kipawa is 1 year old at the end of September, at which time we will re-evaluate things to determine if neutering is the best decision for his health and temperament. In the meantime there will be more dog behavior classes combined with outings to parks where we can control Kipawa better.
Thanks so much for all the info.
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I never said that it is something you just have to deal with…you can definitely teach your dog not to do it...did you see my comment about catching them in the act?
I don't subscribe to your belief in dominance in dogs...and you will find that most progressive trainers and behaviorists don't either. We will have to agree to disagree.
Then my question. How do you teach a dog not to do something he even isn't aware doing? If he knows what he is doing, you can change that behavior. If he doens't even know what he is doing, how are you going to teach him not to do it? That would allmost be like teaching a dog not to dream. What you can do is work on self-control (or whatever causes the problem). But catching him in the act won't help, cause when he doesn't know what he is doing, he won't know what you are upsett about.
Dominance is a big thing for a dog. But, I'm not talking like they are wolves. The tale that there is one alfa-wolf that makes all the dicissions and is the absolute leader, is been proven wrong a long long time ago. In a pack of wolves, they all have their function, and even the lowest in rank, can in certain circomstances be the leader of the pack for as long as that circomstance is there.
Same with dogs, although you can't really compare wolves and dogs. There is allways a pack-order. But that pack-order can change numerous times a day.
I think what Bradshaw means (haven't read his book) is that most of the rules (eat first, walk through the door first…) aren't as effective as allways is claimt. After all, most important for a dog is food. If you can get them food, they will allready greatly appreciate and respect you. And even when they know where it is stored. They can't get it themself. They need you for it. You prove your 'dominance' (how smart and awesome you are) every day by just getting their food out of the 'out of reach' place, put it in a bowl for them and give to them. That's just one example, but there are more such things that you automaticly do that shows that they need you to survive, that you are better then them.
You don't need to act as Cesar Millan to show a dog you are his leader. For most of the dogs, you don't need to do anything, expect having a few rules and sticking to it (and who doesn't have at least a few rules for a dog?), whatever rules that are. Some dogs will test you more often then others. And that's allways dominance, or whatever you want to call it. But you can fix that rather easily by playing at the right way with your dog, instead of turning him on his back and such methods. Cause dominance is, besides creating a pack with more survivibility, also one of their favorite games. A dog makes a game from allmost everything. And it's up to you, the leader, to bend the rules so you are playing at your rules. Doesn't matter who wins (in contrast with the old 'rule' that you allways have to win), but it matters who makes the rules.
Dominance is still here in dogs, it's just not what we are allways been told it was and the way how to deal with it has changed drasticaly over the last years.As a note, English isn't one of my native langueages. So not allways easy to write down what I want to say. So some things might be a bit different when I write them down opposed to what I wanted to say.
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Then my question. How do you teach a dog not to do something he even isn't aware doing? If he knows what he is doing, you can change that behavior. If he doens't even know what he is doing, how are you going to teach him not to do it? That would allmost be like teaching a dog not to dream. What you can do is work on self-control (or whatever causes the problem). But catching him in the act won't help, cause when he doesn't know what he is doing, he won't know what you are upsett about.
Dominance is a big thing for a dog. But, I'm not talking like they are wolves. The tale that there is one alfa-wolf that makes all the dicissions and is the absolute leader, is been proven wrong a long long time ago. In a pack of wolves, they all have their function, and even the lowest in rank, can in certain circomstances be the leader of the pack for as long as that circomstance is there.
Same with dogs, although you can't really compare wolves and dogs. There is allways a pack-order. But that pack-order can change numerous times a day.
I think what Bradshaw means (haven't read his book) is that most of the rules (eat first, walk through the door first…) aren't as effective as allways is claimt. After all, most important for a dog is food. If you can get them food, they will allready greatly appreciate and respect you. And even when they know where it is stored. They can't get it themself. They need you for it. You prove your 'dominance' (how smart and awesome you are) every day by just getting their food out of the 'out of reach' place, put it in a bowl for them and give to them. That's just one example, but there are more such things that you automaticly do that shows that they need you to survive, that you are better then them.
You don't need to act as Cesar Millan to show a dog you are his leader. For most of the dogs, you don't need to do anything, expect having a few rules and sticking to it (and who doesn't have at least a few rules for a dog?), whatever rules that are. Some dogs will test you more often then others. And that's allways dominance, or whatever you want to call it. But you can fix that rather easily by playing at the right way with your dog, instead of turning him on his back and such methods. Cause dominance is, besides creating a pack with more survivibility, also one of their favorite games. A dog makes a game from allmost everything. And it's up to you, the leader, to bend the rules so you are playing at your rules. Doesn't matter who wins (in contrast with the old 'rule' that you allways have to win), but it matters who makes the rules.
Dominance is still here in dogs, it's just not what we are allways been told it was and the way how to deal with it has changed drasticaly over the last years.As a note, English isn't one of my native langueages. So not allways easy to write down what I want to say. So some things might be a bit different when I write them down opposed to what I wanted to say.
I agree with much of what you wrote here. I think we are arguing semantics at this point. Dogs are self-serving creatures, absolutely….and yes, they will try to get what they want ...but I just don't call that dominance.
Yes, I agree that simple, consistant rules are exactly how to have the pet you want.
I think your English is great, and I am glad you clarified what you were sayng in this last post, because I think I have greater understanding of where you are coming from
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I didn't answer your question. The dog does know that he is marking…he just isn't paying attention to where. If you correct the dog IMMEDIATELY, he will understand that the consequence is for the act that he just committed. The same as how any correction works. The problem with correction is that most people aren't paying enough attention to their dog to have meaningful and timely correction...and corrections have different impacts on different dogs, so it is hard for most people to have the effect they want using corrections.
But yes, the very best way to avoid it is to train your dog to have his mind in the moment, even when distracting things are happening. I like to use a "watch me" behavior, so that I can get the dog re-focused when they start to flake out.
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Honestly, "testing" the boundaries is a way of life for a Basenji, IMO…. Neutered/spayed or not.
TY so much for making me spit sunflower seeds onto my monitor.
I deal with many people who expect neutering to be a magic fix for adolescent behavior. They are then puzzled and dismayed when the dog is still doing the things after the neuter.
Exactly. Decreasing the hormones helps some, but not all that much. In fact I think the greatest male hormone rush is between something like 5 to 8 mos, then it levels off, so by the time people see a problem, it usually has more to do with the age than the hormones.
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Did you know:
Marking serves as a way to claim territory, advertise mating availability, and map out the hierarchy of the pack.
It also works as a more efficient way for a dog to protect his turf than having to physically challenge every dog that approaches.
Although male dogs are more likely to mark urine than females, a female dog coming into heat or during it will mark to let the guys know she's available.
Dogs with feelings of insecurity may mark their territory as a confidence-building exercise
So with this in mind, the next time it happens, try to observe the situation in context. It may be a combination of scenarios. -
The only time Mojo did that was on my husband. He was sitting down in front of the fireplace, sitting next to one of his friends. I told my husband I thought it was because he was jealous of him spending a lot of time with his friend, and marked him to let the other person know he was "taken"!!! My husband is Mojo's favorite and is always trying to get his attention!
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Well Kipawa is the son of my boy Sober. We refer to Sober as our lead dog in our group. He is that because he and the other dogs have determined he approaches new things first (amoung other behaviors) and he trains manners in our young dogs. The other dogs in my house have a clear respect for him and even new dogs are quick to submit to inspection from him. I avoid calling him dominant because that word seems to draw fire in the dog world with new training methods and I don't really know that describes what he is.
Sober is also a therapy dog and exceptionally good with small children and the tiniest of dogs. He completely respects me and my husband and without much formal training is probably one of my best trained dogs.
That said he (who Kipawa is very much like) is very strong willed. He is fair but stands his ground on things and will try to take over a situation with someone he feels is not equiped to handle things. He was a juniors dog for 2 years and he seemed to take the junior under his wing and teach him how to show, people who know him were amazed to watch him lead that junior around the ring, and that was what he was doing.
I like what our trainer tells us, we make deals with our dogs as they do with each other. My deal with Sober is I take care of him and he trusts me, he follows my lead respectfully. But I also know that deal includes him stepping up to take over if something were to happen to me, he would quickly take the lead then.
When Fran took Kipawa we warned her consistant fair ongoing training would give her a Sober in her house, but letting him take over or encouraging it will likely give him license to challenge situations. I think she and Darrell understand this and are doing a great job. I think continuing what they plan will be great and they will have an amazing adult dog when he is finished.
Kipawa is out of a line that matures very slowly and for his health and well being we believe in his case it would be good to wait to neuter him when he is fully mature. I don't believe behavior is greatly effected by neutering a young male, we have had intact and neutered brothers that were here and there was no difference in behavior, they were little clones of each other at 2yrs old.
Kipawa's grandpa on his mom's side has peed on people, he likes to pee up and if you don't walk him to something to pee on he will pee on what is close and upright. If given a choice (off lead) he will not chose to pee on a person. But I have also seen he and Sober pee toward each other through a fence, if watching it appears to really be a "pissing match".
I have over the years seen males pee on females during breeding season but not often. I have also seen dogs pee on each other in error, one didn't move when they are both sniffing the same spot.
I always remind myself of what someone once told me, to us things smell bad or good but to our dogs they just smell different. They answer what they smell in a couple different ways, mouth it, roll in it, curl your lip at it or pee on it. I do believe there are as many theories as to why as there are trainers in the world.
I think the key is chaning the behavior, by peeing Kipawa out (maybe only a dribble will remain as would with my boys) it will likely not cause as much embarassment or damage while the behavior is corrected. If Kipawa has his dad's bladder (which he did when he lived here) he can pee quite a lake if left to his own.
You guys are great with all the info you have passed on, I love reading this thread and even encouraged Fran to ask about when people neuter males and why on the forum.
I agree, if there were a like button I'd push it…not that I like pee but I do like the topic.
Therese
